How many traits are better than feats?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I feel like there are a lot of traits which are significantly better than feats and it's somewhat silly.

Tusked, Magical Lineage, Waynag Spellhunter, Lessons of chaldira, defensive strategist, and deadeye bowman are all significantly stronger than feats even specialized feats. There are plenty of them in existence my question is... Why?

Liberty's Edge

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Better than which feats? Lots of them are better than Elephant stomp, I'd hesitate to say any are better than Power Attack.


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You forgot Fate's Favored. I think that there are enough that are equal to half a feat or better to make Additional Traits a pretty good feat. All the initiative and saving throw traits are easily worth a half a feat.


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Tusked is better than Razortusk?


Magical lineage and wayang spellhunter are about summoner level of OPness and should just be banned. The rest are good, true but no serious problem. And as Rhorik said, tusked not better than a feat because there is a feat that does the same. And equal is not better.


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Gingerbreadman wrote:
Magical lineage and wayang spellhunter are about summoner level of OPness and should just be banned. The rest are good, true but no serious problem. And as Rhorik said, tusked not better than a feat because there is a feat that does the same. And equal is not better.

It's better because it costs half as much. Why spend a feat on Razortusk when you can spend the same feat on Tusked and something else. Tusked is strictly better because you get more.


You might have to quantify that somewhat. 'Better than bad feats' is almost a given. No traits are better than the best feats (leadership etc).

More specifically, additional traits is better than every single trait by definition, so.... I guess the answer is 'none'. I would rather take a feat over a trait at any time, even if I wanted a trait.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Gingerbreadman wrote:
Magical lineage and wayang spellhunter are about summoner level of OPness and should just be banned. The rest are good, true but no serious problem. And as Rhorik said, tusked not better than a feat because there is a feat that does the same. And equal is not better.
It's better because it costs half as much. Why spend a feat on Razortusk when you can spend the same feat on Tusked and something else. Tusked is strictly better because you get more.

It is only better is you invest the same amount. But it is not "you invest a trait and get more than a feat worth" as undone claimed. Because you can have the same with investing a feat.

If you say: If I invest a feat on additional traits I get more than by investing a feat for razortusk you would be right. But that is a different statement. The benefit of tusked is not bigger than the benefit of razortusk.


Keep in mind the limitations on traits. No two from the same category. I also feel traits need to be justified via backstory. Ultimate Campaign's Character Background chapter even adds this variant rule (where background features open up access to various traits). In my mind, even the Additional Trait feat should only allow traits that could be acquired during adventuring (social, faith, etc).


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Unless you take Additional Traits at level one.

No supertraits discussion is complete without Finding Haleen, is it? Not just better than a feat, better than two feats (as it's basically Fast Learner + Toughness).

However, it is worth noting that most of these are 'better' than feats because there is no comparable feat. For example, Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are awesome, and have no direct comparison... because their comparison, Arcane Thesis, is sitting over in 3.5, being far more awesome, and probably intentionally not getting ported to Pathfinder.


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Any of the traits that let you use stat X instead of stat Y, such as bruising intellect.

I just read dead eye bowman and burst out laughing. Yes, it is ok to give improved precise shot to everyone at level 1, why not. Wizards could actually miss at low levels because of cover :(

Sovereign Court

It should be noted that the reprint of Lessons of Chaldira and Defensive Strategist in Inner Sea Gods are a little less powerful than the originals.


with a bard's archiolegiest arch-type with Jingasa of the fortunate soldier it is preaty hard to find a feat that gives what the faith's favored trait would.


kestral287 wrote:

Unless you take Additional Traits at level one.

No supertraits discussion is complete without Finding Haleen, is it? Not just better than a feat, better than two feats (as it's basically Fast Learner + Toughness).

However, it is worth noting that most of these are 'better' than feats because there is no comparable feat. For example, Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are awesome, and have no direct comparison... because their comparison, Arcane Thesis, is sitting over in 3.5, being far more awesome, and probably intentionally not getting ported to Pathfinder.

Isn't Arcane Thesis just Magical Lineage+Spell Specialization? Ok, cheaper, but with Wayang Spellhunter, the combo you get is above and beyond arcane thesis.

Finding Haleen is really nice.


If you exclude caplaign specific (finding haleen, trapfinder, etc)

I would only rate waywang and magical lineage above a feat. A


Quote:
Isn't Arcane Thesis just Magical Lineage+Spell Specialization? Ok, cheaper, but with Wayang Spellhunter, the combo you get is above and beyond arcane thesis.

Arcane thesis had a very bad writing when it first came out in 3.5 PH2. IIRC, according to the way you read it , it allowed the reduction of the initial spell level, after the metamagic feat application. Meaning you could take a bunch +0 metamagic and and cast f.e. fireball as a 0 level spell.


Finding Haleen is a 3.5 Campaign Trait, not really comparable to the rest.

There are definitely quite a few traits that are better than average feats. Most have been mentioned above. The Andoran trait that gives bow proficiency and ignore the first range increment qualifies, as does Eastern Mysteries I'd say, just due to stackability.

I would define average feats as the saving throw feats, Dodge, perhaps Cleave, and Spell Focus for someone who isn't super-specializing (not usually great for Clerics for instance).


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Magical Knack, mostly because there isn't a feat that does something like it.

Affiable is a special case, but nearly as good as Cosmopolitan. You can't select the skills, but you get two good skills added to your class skills list.

I don't care for the Replace X with Y (such as Wisdom in the Flesh) traits.

Reactionary is probably more than should be in a trait, even though it is exactly half the bonus of a feat.


How about Second Chance? Better than any single Improved (save feat) with no prerequisite.


Rhorik Hogsvard wrote:
How about Second Chance? Better than any single Improved (save feat) with no prerequisite.

That is Lessons of chaldira.

Quote:
You forgot Fate's Favored.

I did and it's incredible.


Well I'm sure I'm doing it wrong, but most of my traits end up being something that gives a class skill, something that buffs a weak save, or Magical Talent (or whatever the thing is that gives you any 0th level spellPrestidigitation as a spell-like ability).


Majuba wrote:

Finding Haleen is a 3.5 Campaign Trait, not really comparable to the rest.

There are definitely quite a few traits that are better than average feats. Most have been mentioned above. The Andoran trait that gives bow proficiency and ignore the first range increment qualifies, as does Eastern Mysteries I'd say, just due to stackability.

I would define average feats as the saving throw feats, Dodge, perhaps Cleave, and Spell Focus for someone who isn't super-specializing (not usually great for Clerics for instance).

I agree some campaign traits are crazy because they are intended for that game only and usually are related to an NPC. That's not really fair.

The prof bow andoran trait is simply silly.


Does Fates Favoured stack with say sacred tattoo or halfling luck bonus? Cause those are racial traits vs a trait. Not sure.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Lemartes wrote:
Does Fates Favoured stack with say sacred tattoo or halfling luck bonus? Cause those are racial traits vs a trait. Not sure.

There's no issue of stacking. Fate's Favored increases all luck bonuses by 1, and Sacred Tattoo gives a +1 luck bonus to all saves, so that's increased to +2.

Halfling Luck, despite its name, is a racial bonus and not a luck bonus, so it doesn't apply.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Undone wrote:
Majuba wrote:

Finding Haleen is a 3.5 Campaign Trait, not really comparable to the rest.

There are definitely quite a few traits that are better than average feats. Most have been mentioned above. The Andoran trait that gives bow proficiency and ignore the first range increment qualifies, as does Eastern Mysteries I'd say, just due to stackability.

I would define average feats as the saving throw feats, Dodge, perhaps Cleave, and Spell Focus for someone who isn't super-specializing (not usually great for Clerics for instance).

I agree some campaign traits are crazy because they are intended for that game only and usually are related to an NPC. That's not really fair.

The prof bow andoran trait is simply silly.

The prof bow trait is called Hunter's Eye. It's not on the d20pfsrd, but it can be found under archives of nethys. I can now make my battle shaman without being an elf. I am very happy. :)

Pathfinder is not a perfectly balanced game. Some things are better than others all the time, other things are amazing in the right situations, and the rest is page filler. Though, once in awhile I'm sure a "worthless" trait, feat, class, race, etc could be usable with the right build. It's part of the challenge of building a character.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
Does Fates Favoured stack with say sacred tattoo or halfling luck bonus? Cause those are racial traits vs a trait. Not sure.

There's no issue of stacking. Fate's Favored increases all luck bonuses by 1, and Sacred Tattoo gives a +1 luck bonus to all saves, so that's increased to +2.

Halfling Luck, despite its name, is a racial bonus and not a luck bonus, so it doesn't apply.

Thanks. :)


necromental wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Unless you take Additional Traits at level one.

No supertraits discussion is complete without Finding Haleen, is it? Not just better than a feat, better than two feats (as it's basically Fast Learner + Toughness).

However, it is worth noting that most of these are 'better' than feats because there is no comparable feat. For example, Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are awesome, and have no direct comparison... because their comparison, Arcane Thesis, is sitting over in 3.5, being far more awesome, and probably intentionally not getting ported to Pathfinder.

Isn't Arcane Thesis just Magical Lineage+Spell Specialization? Ok, cheaper, but with Wayang Spellhunter, the combo you get is above and beyond arcane thesis.

Finding Haleen is really nice.

Arcane Thesis reduces the added level of each metamagic effect by one. Intensified? +0. Elemental? +0 Empowered? +1. Maximize or Dazing? +2. Intensified Empowered Maximized Dazing Fireball of the element of your choice? 8th level spell, normally 13th. Oh, and then you get the +2 caster level on top of that. From my understanding you could do much worse with full out 3.5 material where a bunch of +0 level metamagic effects existed; as somebody else noted it was errata'd that the total spell level can't be lower than the original level, but add in, say, two or three of those +0 metamagics to the above and it goes from an 8th level spell to a 5th or 6th.

Yeah. It's kind of awesome, and far and above the two Pathfinder traits that are its closest equivalent.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Unless you take Additional Traits at level one.

False.

PRD wrote:
You gain two character traits of your choice (see Chapter 8). These traits must be chosen from different lists, and cannot be chosen from lists from which you have already selected a character trait. You must meet any additional qualifications for the character traits you choose.
(emphasis mine)

My apologies for not being more clear, I meant that as a response to the above poster's argument that you should only be allowed to take Additional Traits if you role-play some change in background over the course of their adventuring life.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
PrinceRaven wrote:
Better than which feats? Lots of them are better than Elephant stomp, I'd hesitate to say any are better than Power Attack.

While Improved Precise Shot is strictly better Deadeye is in almost as good with significantly less requirements.

1. Only prerequisite is to worship a misogynist deity vs 2 feats and BAB +11
2. usually easy to meet the combat requirement of only 1 intervening foe.
3. limited to longbows (which includes composite longbows), so not really a limitation for most builds.


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When taken out of context, of course the traits on the SRD seem powerful:

Quote:


Deadeye Bowman
Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 219 (Amazon)
Category Religion
Requirement(s) Erastil

When you are using a longbow, if only a single creature is providing soft cover to your target, your target does not receive the +4 bonus to AC.

- Restricted to followers of Erastil. So if you follow any other god, nope.

- Only longbows. No crossbows, rays, throwing weapons, fireguns. Or even shortbows. And probably does not count for composite longbows, as they are different weapons that only count as the same regarding proficiency, but this will see table variance. So, only longbows and Daikyu (eastern version of longbow) are allowed.
- Only if he has another creature providing soft cover. Doesn't work against low walls, tower shields, corners, etc. Or even if two or more creatures are providing cover.

I don't see this being even as remotely as powerful as a feat, with this many restrictions.


Since no traits are as good as the Extra Traits feat, I'd say no Traits are better than feats.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Any feat that grants weapon proficiency and other stuff is by definition better than the corresponding weapon proficiency feat.

For example, Varisian Tattoo grants proficiency with one exotic weapon and one martial weapon as well as a saving throw bonus that would be worth a trait on its own.


Cuup wrote:
Since no traits are as good as the Extra Traits feat, I'd say no Traits are better than feats.

I see you took the cheap way out. But remember that Additional Traits is only as good as the traits you pick. It could also be terrible.

Another vote for Fate's Favored. Next level, my Destined Bloodrager gets his luck bonus to AC and saves. Fate's Favored essentially makes me 4 levels higher in determining the bonus I gain.


shadowkras wrote:

When taken out of context, of course the traits on the SRD seem powerful:

Quote:


Deadeye Bowman
Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 219 (Amazon)
Category Religion
Requirement(s) Erastil

When you are using a longbow, if only a single creature is providing soft cover to your target, your target does not receive the +4 bonus to AC.

- Restricted to followers of Erastil. So if you follow any other god, nope.

- Only longbows. No crossbows, rays, throwing weapons, fireguns. Or even shortbows. And probably does not count for composite longbows, as they are different weapons that only count as the same regarding proficiency, but this will see table variance. So, only longbows and Daikyu (eastern version of longbow) are allowed.
- Only if he has another creature providing soft cover. Doesn't work against low walls, tower shields, corners, etc. Or even if two or more creatures are providing cover.

I don't see this being even as remotely as powerful as a feat, with this many restrictions.

I have nothing against playing an Erastil worshiper, not really a restriction.

Being restricted to the very best ranged weapon isn't a problem. And Composite Longbows are longbows. Please, don't be stupid.
Walls, tower shields and most corners don't provide soft cover anyway. Other people are by far the most common soft cover.

EDIT: If you doubt the trait's usability:
Take a look at the most probable positioning in combat. If you use a longbow, you will most likely be positioned behind your friends, who then will be providing soft cover for the enemies.

Take a look at the Precise Shot feat. It allows you to ignore a -4 penalty with ranged attacks in the same situation where the trait removes a +4 bonus to enemies AC.

The Improved Precise Shot feat is stronger than the trait (as it ignores all cover and concealment short of total cover and total concealment).
Having invested 4 Feats (Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot (which also required Point-Blank Shot), Improved Precise Shot), high (19) Dex and be (at least) level 11 (or level 15 for a 3/4BAB) should be stronger than a trait gained at level 1. It should also be stronger than Improved Precise Shot.


Quote:
And Composite Longbows are longbows. Please, don't be stupid.

If composite longbows were longbows, they wouldnt have the following text:

Quote:


For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.


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shadowkras wrote:
Quote:
And Composite Longbows are longbows. Please, don't be stupid.

If composite longbows were longbows, they wouldnt have the following text:

Quote:


For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.

Another strong arguement is the pregen iconic Hunter. She has Deadeye Bowman and she uses a composite longbow.


Clever Wordplay / Bruising Intellect.

Use Int for one Cha skill.

Let's say you are a fighter with Str18 Dex14 Con14. Drop Cha down to 7 and Wis to 9. Boost Int to 14. You now have your intimidate (your only class skill) at +2, and get 2 more skill points (and classes like that really need it). You get Wis back at lvl4, and from there just focus on strength.

It's an amazing trait that shores up a major weakness for classes like that.

Make it a half orc and add fate's favored. You easily make up for the lost wisdom, and with intimidating you get +4 to intimidate, which is the equivalent of Cha18.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Rub-Eta :
the trait deadeye does not remove the -4 penalty for shooting in melee (equivalent of precise shot). it remove the -4 penalty for soft cover IF only ONE CREATURE is causing it.

so if you're a ranged char, point-blank and precise shot are "mandatory" anyway

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Broken, not Beaten is also very nice.

The only reason I took Diehard in 3.5 was to not bleed out anyway.


A trait with the same effect as a feat can still be the worse choice, because taking a trait prohibits you from taking more traits in this category. Both the race trait Tusked and the feat Razortusk give you a primary bite attack with 1d4 damage. But you might want another race trait, like Brute (add crit multiplier as damage when you threaten a crit, not multiplied by crits though) or Dirty Fighter (+3 to feint).


Armor Master Guide:
To the Last: DR 1/- which stacks with all DR. But only works when no ally within 60 ft. Useful for a Boss, less useful for a PC unless Solo.

Armored Soul: +1 trait saves vs divine damage when wearing armor.

Weapon Master:
Roving Range: Ranged weapons get +5 range

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