Where Pathfinder Online Went Wrong IMO


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

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I found this line quite interesting in one of the lastest blogs:

"We committed to our community to provide as much information about what we're doing, why, when, and how as we can. We accept that the downside for that level of transparency is that we become vulnerable to those who focus on the negative."

To me this raised a singular question: What is the positive we are supposed to be focusing on?

Back in the day I actually created a post pitching Pathfinder onlines features, that was edited and posted by GW on the front page of their 2nd Kickstarer.

So what has changed between then and now? Back then PFO had nothing but promises, now they have a game. Back then I saw their competitors as old school sandboxes like Darkfall, Mortal and Wurm. Now they are up against serious sandbox developers, some which have AAA budgets.

So lets delve into that question a bit more.

What is the Positive?

I'm no stranger to sub par games. I've chosen to primarily focus my attention on games that push the envelope and bring something new/great to the MMO scene. Unfortunately with the bulk of the resources in the MMO industry going into remaking WoW with some tiny variations over, and over, and over. That's meant that the majority of my time has been spent playing small indy MMOs.

I have a lot of negative things to say about these MMOs, and those who are familiar with me have heard me say them. However I also have a lot of positive things to say about them and I'm sure those familiar with me have also heard me applaud things such as Mortal Online's breeding and item property systems, Darkfall's exploration/treasure map systems, Wurm Online's improvement system etc.

So why is it that I have NOTHING positive to say about Pathfinder Online at this point? Pathfinder Online has made positive promises. Some of the systems they have said they will put in-game sound cool.

However there is not a single feature in this game I can point to and say. "That is done extremely well. That really pushes the envelope of MMO innovation."

And unfortunately that's the factor common in all MMO's I would even bother to rate as mediocre. Some feature done so well that it keeps me excited about logging in, and coming back to see what other areas that MMO has advanced in periodically.

Why is That a Problem? This is Just an Alpha.

Pathfinder Online was pitched to us as a game that would release early but still be fun by focusing on it's minimum viable product.

They said that they could achieve this by making human interaction, driven primarily by competition between player factions as the focal point of their game.

This made a lot of sense to me. As an old Freelancer vet I would rate every single feature of Freelancer as sub-par except the combat system and capacity for meaningful human interaction. They released a game with a bare bones economy, a freaking amazing combat system, a bit of space to explore and absolutely no rules. I loved it so much I played it consistently for 5 years straight.

Pathfinder Online however, launched with a shackled highly restricted PvP environment and few ways to really engage in it. When they did release something, not only was the release of it buggy and botched, but it was still so heavily restricted it boiled down to Arena PvP edited into an Open World Format. With that they have:

Terrible Combat Mechanics
Sub Par Graphics
Sub Par Character Creation
Sub Par Crafting
Sub Par PvE
Sub Par Trade
Sub Par Exploration
Non-Existent Settlement Building

I won't even talk about the stability because before I even care about that, you need to give me a reason to log in.

What They Should Have Done

PFO really violated their promise to give us a fun product quickly by focusing their efforts on player interaction. People have defended this by saying "EE will belong to the builders!" To that my question is: Then why isn't settlement building in yet, and why does crafting suck?

The fact is there is no single feature of PFO that is done well at this point. If there were any singular feature does so well, that was so fun that it would keep me logging in to this game, then I wouldn't be selling my accounts, even if every other aspect of this game was total trash.

Every competitor has given something to me in this arena.

Star Citizen has:

Amazing Graphics
Freaking Awesome Racing

And it's dogfighting isn't too shabby at this point.

Life is Feudal has:

The best non-block terraforming system I have ever seen.
Crafting fun enough to be engaging.

ArcheAge Has:

Amazing Graphics
Great Character Appearance Customization
Well Done Custom Classes
Engaging Fast/Paced Combat
An Exciting Variety of Mounts and Vehicles that Can Actually be Used in Combat
A Cool Piracy/Trade System

My Question to The Defenders of Pathfinder Online and Mr. Ryan Dancey

If you want us to focus on the positive I would like to know. What do you see the positive as? I'm asking for something better than "at some point down the road..." or "we really listen to the community."

What features that are currently in your game do you believe you have done an extremely good job on? Is there any feature that can be found in the current iteration of PFO that can't be found done as well anywhere else? What features do you think "those who focus on the positive" and the defenders of PFO should be selling to people?

And if there is nothing like that right now, what feature do you intend to get developed to a "selling point" status soonest, and what's your ETA on that?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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So, do you think LiF or Star Citizen are MMOs yet? That's the one feature among many mentioned that is actually MVP.

Also, the PFO release isn't until 2016 (estimated). The RSI hanger module looked very pretty, but if you judge PFO by alpha 7 features you should judge Star Citizen by what they had six months after their first executable delivered to customers.

Goblin Squad Member

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I think answering your precise question would require me to conduct a complete survey of every MMO or near-MMO on the market, which I am not prepared to do.

I play this game (well, this alpha) because I enjoy it.

Are there games out there I would enjoy as much, or more? Possibly. Probably, even. But I know the crowd playing PFO, and like the community, and that's enough reason for me to stick with it even if you don't want to credit that to Goblinworks.

http://xkcd.com/1445/

Goblin Squad Member

From what Ryan said in your previous thread the primary advantage atm of pfo over other indi sandbox mmo's is single shard scalability. That may not sound like much but what it means is that PFO will be far better able to deal with it's population and will never need to break up ingame kingdoms via capt shard capacity. What I wonder is if all of this in house work on the server architecture could give the possibility of moving to a cutting edge game engine at some far point in the future. What scares me is the future viability of the tab targeting non directional undynamic combat system. This type of system is already loosing popularity. As PFO is a pvp game this can severely handycap the future of this product. If the system were to be upgraded a few years down the road people who are used to the dumbed down tab targeting may be very upset over changing a core game mechanic and so it would likely not happen.... Ok a little sidtracked there the keyword system is actually quite awsome imo

Goblin Squad Member

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I believe that that Ryan had me in mind when he wrote that snippet about "Those who focus on the negative."

I've responded with the legitimate question of "What do you feel the positive is?" and given him and the other proponents of the game a chance to defend that position and even help define for eachother what selling points you should be focusing on when marketing PFO outside this community.

I read that you didn't read my response. I don't care. You responded with fanboy rage when given a chance to defend something you apparently love. If you are feeling so blindly defensive of this title you lashed out before even reading then that is your problem. Not mine.

Decius has responded with a predictable. "Give them more time."

I agree they have not been given enough time to produce a truly quality game overall but I certainly believe at this point that someone should be able to point out a singular feature to me which PFO has really excelled at.

My concern isn't that this game lacks quality in some areas. It's that it lacks quality in every area.

Goblin Squad Member

Paper Weasel wrote:
I think answering your precise question would require me to conduct a complete survey of every MMO or near-MMO on the market, which I am not prepared to do.

No it doesn't. Is there any singular aspect of this game that you personally feel is done well? And if so then what about that feature sets it apart from other MMOs personally for you?

I could answer this question about almost every MMO I've played and enjoyed on any level.

So that would answer my question well enough.


First off, you logged in this morning. So something is pulling you into the game.

Second off, really, why are you still playing? Because you invested money in it? Call it sunk costs and move on if you really don't want to play.

Third of all, you seem to be fixated on games that have one or two things done "extremely well"- but almost none of those things are actually either a) a meaningful part of a game (i.e. graphics); b) a part of PFO (terraforming and racing???); or c) make a complete and total game worth playing for years on end.

PFO might not rock your socks off with any single one of its features. But the game taken as a whole still has a lot of value and promise.

I don't take PFO's innovation to be a single stand-out gimmick like terraforming or racing or extreme character customization (none of which are all that new). I take it to be the game as a whole. If it feels incomplete to you, that is because it is. It is all the more incomplete for still being in Alpha- none of our actions in the game world are permanent right now and several MVP systems are still in-development.

By the way, if you want an engaging fight, build a character that can beat mine. In my opinion, when you have nothing to learn, then you can complain the game has nothing to offer.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Is there any singular aspect of this game that you personally feel is done well?

Nope, not particularly!

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I could answer this question about almost every MMO I've played and enjoyed on any level.

Cool! I can't say the same, myself.

Goblin Squad Member

To address the thread topic:

Andius, are you positing that the PFO team could have produced a product you'd have liked better by making different decisions with the same resources? It is unclear to me precisely where you think they went wrong.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ugh. I'll answer your damn question.

MMOs all blow. Some have selling points, but ultimately they are all skinner box nightmares that offer a pretty good illusion of interesting rewards, but you look back on and wonder 'Why did I spend x years of my life on that damn game?'

For me, the answer is always the same. The community. The people you meet, play with, play against. Friendships formed and lost. The social aspect. Playing PFO, I have already met tons of people whom I never would have otherwise and had a damn good time.

PFO, as it stands, is terrible. As you have so insistently noted, nobody is able to identify a positive about the game. Maybe it'll get better, maybe it'll die. I don't really care. Because MMOs aren't about the game, the game is just there to keep you busy and to drive change in the social fabric - and that social fabric is already alive and well in PFO.

And There Is Your Answer, IMO.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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I like the armor. Our characters' faces may not be anything to write home about, but I really like the armor they wear. Anyone who compares PFO's graphics to the late 90s or early 2000s must not have zoomed in on their character. That, or they've forgotten what those games actually looked like.

I like the economic system. Even as it stands right now, I prefer it to systems where mobs mostly drop 'vendor trash', with a small chance to drop an item far better than any player could craft. I prefer local Auction Houses and transport requirements over global Auction Houses and magic mail systems that render transport meaningless. (Am I saying the current AH system is flawless? Heck no! Am I saying I like it better than traditional MMO AHs? Yes.)

I like the Golarion references. I love the fact that PFO goblin bombers will blast their fellow goblins, just like tabletop Pathfinder goblin alchemists. I like the references to Pharasma and Razmir. I like the inclusion of Knowledge skills, even if they work differently.

Are any of these huge? World-shaking? Nope. I like 'em anyway.


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The one thing you can say about these threads is they tend to be the most active, oddly.

I guess furthermore you have to ask yourself what you would do if you were Andy. It seems as though he wants to love this game. If you were given a game that said, "We'll give you a hand in building it..." and at some point you felt as though it wasn't happening, would you just walk away?

I think it's interesting that people come in here and bash Andy opposed to just ignoring the threads, if they dislike them.

Plus, let's all keep in mind there is still time for the game to get better. Does no one want the game to get better?

I agree with his sentiment in that it is past the "wouldn't it be cool" stage (as I have often said.) Now we're really getting to see what the finished product will look like. Sure, it's just a frame, but I don't think they can build outside of the frame... much.

We are all in this boat more or less together. It's funny that people continue to say stuff like "Just leave!"

Goblin Squad Member

Paper Weasel wrote:

To address the thread topic:

Andius, are you positing that the PFO team could have produced a product you'd have liked better by making different decisions with the same resources? It is unclear to me precisely where you think they went wrong.

Yes.

I can't find my original more detailed suggestion but here is a quick summary of it in another older post I made.

The basic concept was launch with no roles, a basic weapons and some skills for melee, ranged, arcane and divine attacks, and weapons/armor vendable from NPCS.

From there you give people objectives to fight over such as control points that offer some kind of reward. The War of Towers actually kind of works it's just too complex and not constant enough. And of course utterly meaningless in alpha.

You can leave the reputation system out because until there are plenty of avenues for meaningful PvP that doesn't harm rep it does more harm then help. Basically until feuds are in, the rep system doesn't need to be. Lack of content is worse than random ganks and if this community is as wonderful as everyone keeps saying then they should be able to offer meaningful consequences to such behavior through strength of arms.

So you go from:

Basic But Well-Done Combat, Merchants with Gear, and Some Reason to Fight

to

Basic But Well-Done Combat, a Crafting System, and Some Reason to Fight

to

Complex and But Well-Done Combat, a Crafting System, and Many Meaningful Reasons to Fight With Consequences for Random Ganking.

In other words you isolate features and focus on them until done well.

So if I was promoting PFO outside the community I could say. "Sure it's bare bones, but the combat is really fun."

That's based on PFO's original model of selling PvP. If you wanted to focus on something other than combat then you have to do it really well. PvP is just a good focus because it doesn't require a lot of developer made content to be extremely engaging.

At this point there is nothing I can go do in PFO that I can't have more fun doing in some other title. That doesn't sell. Which is why Aragon, Freevale and The Magistry have all communicated to me that the players they are bringing into the game are not receptive to what's being offered.

And while TEO and TSV may put up a front everything is peachy I do have access to the private TEO boards and it doesn't seem so peachy there. Seems kind of dead outside a few regulars.

Goblin Squad Member

celestialiar wrote:


We are all in this boat more or less together. It's funny that people continue to say stuff like "Just leave!"

As he's actively trying to sell his accounts, I wouldn't say we are in the same boat at all.


Dorgan Berkham wrote:
celestialiar wrote:


We are all in this boat more or less together. It's funny that people continue to say stuff like "Just leave!"
As he's actively trying to sell his accounts, I wouldn't say we are in the same boat at all.

I'm not an Andy or anyone ally. I like to side with truth, if possible.

I don't know what he's doing, really. My 'empathy' tells me he wants to see PFO be a good game.

I'd take a refund right now if I could get one. In fact, I asked for one. I really don't see why I can't get one being as I haven't used any part of it, but I am pretty sure I won't get it.

I still wanna see PFO as in the dream of PFO succeed. If not in this game then in another in the future. That is, to take the next step in the sandbox, toward something that isn't just meta-number crunching, pvp ad nauseam. That's not saying pvp is bad... but in the end people will realize there needs to be a world to fight for. Sure, a game can retain pvpers... but in order to become a good/legendary long lasting game... we need people who get on and spend 5 hours handling their animals and planning social gatherings.

Goblin Squad Member

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celestialiar wrote:
...would you just walk away?

Unequivocally yes.

Life is far too short to waste precious time being negative.

Goblin Squad Member

Soon enough.

I wanted to give Ryan a chance to defend his own product. I have been representing PFO negatively to anyone outside the community I discuss it to because I see no positive and I give my honest opinions of games when discussing them with others.

Not only I, but most people outside the regular fanboys on these forums. Just look at the responses to my YouTube video in which I made no attempt to trash or discredit PFO. Just displayed a build for the purposes of helping people find a good starting point for PvE based cleric.

Check out mmorpg.com and what they have to say about PFO. The reception of this game has been univerally negative.

My sales pitched worked when all PFO had was promises and ideas. Now that they have a game, that's what people are going to judge them on.

Anyone who wants to see this game succeed might want to start thinking on what selling points they want to focus on when selling this game to outsiders. If you can't do that, then you need to start seriously crowdforging a solution that you CAN use to sell this game.

Give me a reason to say something about PFO other than "Don't waste your time. It has nothing to offer that isn't being done better by someone else."

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

celestialiar wrote:
In order to become a good/legendary long lasting game... we need people who get on and spend 5 hours handling their animals and planning social gatherings.

Agreed. I think we'll get there eventually.

We already have people planning escalation-clearing parties, and given that we're still in Alpha, that's mostly a social event.

Goblin Squad Member

One feature among the many I like about PFO: I like the people that I have met and played with. I think there are a lot more fun people to meet and play with, either as friends or enemies. You may not understand why I am happy with the game so far. I can't understand how you're not.

I look forward to the game continuing to evolve and improve.

You're not a happy person, Andius. I get that. You obviously need others to know that. I'm sure in a few weeks there's a good chance we'll see another thread about the next game that you hope will fulfill your needs and dreams. I wish you luck in your search and hope you can finally move on. Cause all this? It's getting old...

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
I think there are a lot more fun people to meet and play with, either as friends or enemies. You may not understand why I am happy with the game so far. I can't understand how you're not.

I actually understand completely. It's how I felt about my Freelancer Server. My Freelancer server was capped at 50 people with no plans to ever become much larger.

I hope you realize this game's plan is to expand, and if it succeeds in that venture, the tiny little group of people that comprise PFO's current community will ultimately be of no meaning. It's going to attract an Open World PvP crowd. A crowd that has quite literally accused me of being a carebear and had a lot of people even in my own group telling me I was too nice and didn't have enough bloodthirst.

Good luck with that.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius the Afflicted wrote:
<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
I think there are a lot more fun people to meet and play with, either as friends or enemies. You may not understand why I am happy with the game so far. I can't understand how you're not.

I actually understand completely. It's how I felt about my Freelancer Server. My Freelancer server was capped at 50 people with no plans to ever become much larger.

I hope you realize this game's plan is to expand, and if it succeeds in that venture, the tiny little group of people that comprise PFO's current community will ultimately be of no meaning. It's going to attract an Open World PvP crowd. A crowd that has quite literally accused me of being a carebear and had a lot of people even in my own group telling me I was too nice and didn't have enough bloodthirst.

Good luck with that.

So are you telling him the reason why his reasons are not valid is that the game might succeed, all in a thread questioning the very possibility of the game succeeding?

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
I think there are a lot more fun people to meet and play with, either as friends or enemies. You may not understand why I am happy with the game so far. I can't understand how you're not.

I actually understand completely. It's how I felt about my Freelancer Server. My Freelancer server was capped at 50 people with no plans to ever become much larger.

I hope you realize this game's plan is to expand, and if it succeeds in that venture, the tiny little group of people that comprise PFO's current community will ultimately be of no meaning. It's going to attract an Open World PvP crowd. A crowd that has quite literally accused me of being a carebear and had a lot of people even in my own group telling me I was too nice and didn't have enough bloodthirst.

Good luck with that.

Yes, they'll come. I've been saying something like that for a long time*. I don't believe the early community will be meaningless, though. We'll build the world that they come into. We'll set the tone that they experience when they arrive. Not everyone will follow the example, but some will.

Will some of the current settlements be bulldozed by more aggressive newcomers? Almost certainly. Will all the current settlements crumble? Probably not. I think we already have some settlements who will be more aggressive than most people realize. Some other settlements might not be very aggressive, but I suspect they'll put up a more fierce defense than the aggressors will expect.

* I've focused more on the fact that they play MMOs as video games, rather than RP exercises, but I'm referring to the same crowd. Part of playing an MMO as a video game is playing to win. These are the people who will say "Peace is boring. Let's go start a fight on the other side of the map," rather than being content with their current holdings.


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PFO is right about where I thought it would be now. I don't really see how the current state of the game is surprising at all. This seems more like a problem of people not managing expectations.

C'mon people, this isn't our first video game Kickstarter rodeo.

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