Playing Pathfinder with Devout Players

[ElterAgo]

Gallifrey wrote:

... it was brought up that they were all "uncomfortable with the deity aspect". I told them that it was fine and I could work around it ...

This needs significant discussion and clarification. Being "uncomfortable with the deity aspect" could mean about 13 bajillion different things.

It could just mean they have previously had a ash-hat of a GM that made them do a lot of uncomfortable things because of whichever particular deity they picked.
OR
It could mean they don't want to feel like (or give the impression that) they are worshiping something they don't believe in.
OR
It could mean they are atheists and feel like pretending to believe in gods is hypocritical.
OR
It could mean they have very different beliefs among the group and don't want the subject brought up to start OoC fights.
OR
It could be they don't want religious conflict in the game because they deal with it too much in real life and it wouldn't be an escape.
OR
Any number of other things.

I used to know some people in the second category back in my 3.0 days. That group just treated all the listed good deities as angels in charge of specific aspects of their Christian religion (I'm trying to remember the specific one, I want to say Methodist, but I'm not sure of that). All the evil dieties were of course then treated as fallen angels in service to Lucifer. They just conveniently ignored all the neutrals in the list.

It worked for them. I would suggest having a longer talk with them then seeing if they have any suggestions or make some your self. Get agreement long before you do much campaign planning.

[Trianii]

It all boils down to simply knowing what your players are comfortable with, and what they're not comfortable with, and working with them. There really isn't anything more to it. Everyone is at the table to have fun; the players are volunteering their time and agreeing to play in the GM's campaign, and the GM should in turn ensure that the players have a rich, enjoyable experience.

If it's a matter of the players being uncomfortable portraying characters in a setting with a multitude of gods due to their real-world religious inclinations, I can tell you from personal experience that Pathfinder does NOT require a polytheistic setting; a monotheistic world with a singular, good deity can work just fine. As Javaed mentioned in his post, I home-brewed a campaign setting with a fantasy analog to Catholicism, where the opponents the PCs face are demons and undead. The player characters are true heroes who battle supernatural evil and protect people, so I conclude that portraying a "murderhobo" isn't required to have fun in a campaign, either.

[Dreaming Psion]

I've heard of using abstract philosophical beliefs as place of deities/religion as sources for "divine" spells, healing and the like when there is some background element of the players that makes using deities uncomfortable/unfeasible. That might be an option, given on the nature of their players and their wants. As echoed, be sure to check with them on their preferences

[Tarondor]

The OP mentions the sound of hooves and many of you guys are speculating about zebras instead of horses. It's about 99.999% likely that his players are Christians, probably of some relatively fundamentalist sect or related branch of Christianity.

The question isn't whether we feel the way they do, or understand why they feel that way. It doesn't matter. Their discomfort with the themes of the game is every bit as real and important as those who call for gender/racial/sexual diversity in the game (things which I don't much care about, but respectfully concede are important to some fellow gamers).

What matters is that these are fellow gamers looking for a way to enjoy the hobby. What we're about here is helping each other enjoy the game.

I echo those who counsel the OP to explore his players' feelings and to talk to them about the ideas of using a monotheistic religion in his game. It'd work like a charm.

On the other hand, as both an alpha geek and a devout church-going (albeit non-fundamentalist) Christian, I actually find a fictional polytheistic religion in my games to be easier to square with my own beliefs precisely because they are polytheistic, which make them feel quite a bit less real (to me) than might a fictional monotheistic religion.

In my homebrew campaign, I follow the Tolkien model in having a pantheon of "gods" that follow or oppose a single distant good Creator for whom the good "gods" are just caretakers and stewards and against whom the evil "gods" are rebels.

[blackbloodtroll]

I don't think this should spiral down into an attack on organized religion, or it's members, or members of any faith.

[Tarondor]

I hope you don't think I was doing that! Quite the opposite.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a few posts bringing this discussion into slightly more contentious real world issues. Let's avoid religious debates or making negative assumptions about religions in the advice forum, and focus on what actual advice you might give to the original poster in relation to their game.

[TimD]

Hrm.
As my original post was deemed contentious towards real world issues / religion, I'm not sure what's safe to say (I intended it more as a warning towards GM'ing for any given group of players who are used to having a game revolve around their biases, but it's entirely possible it didn't come out that way).

I'm off to the apologize to Chris thread now...

Good luck, OP!

-TimD

[blackbloodtroll]

Oh.

My post on separation of fantasy and reality was deleted.

As stated in that post, it is not focused on Religion, but it could be concern.

I hope expressing the need to be sure this is not the problem, as being offensive.

[Elder Basilisk]

It's from 3.0/3.5, but if you/your players are open to considering gaming in a old testament setting (or a crystal dragon version thereof) you might also consider checking out GreenRonin's Testament setting.

[pennywit]

My first thought is that if they're very religious, then they probably have a very good idea of how they want to harmonize their Pathfinder game with their religion. My gut instinct is that it might be better for their group if one of THEM became the group's GM, and for you to then mentor their GM -- that is, let him email you between sessions for advice to help him be a better GM.

My second thought is that there is something that might work really, really well for this group: a modified version of the upcoming Hell's Rebels, or something similar set in Cheliax or Nidal. The players assume the role of righteous heroes trying to bring light to a land dominated by darkness, evil, and injustice. They would have plenty of chances to protect the innocent, battle evil, and redeem those fallen folk who can potentially be redeemed. If you de-emphasize or eliminate entirely Golarion's divine pantheon, you're left with a potentially epic campaign that satisfies the players' desires to be heroes in a fantasy world.

[Ciaran Barnes]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

My post on separation of fantasy and reality was deleted.

So was my anecdote about something that actually happened to me.

[blackbloodtroll]

I am not sure how I can ask questions, and give advice, if I don't touch upon the subject of religion, and/or separating fantasy from reality.

If I can't, then my advice is play another game.

Never deal with that subject that cannot be named(which I totally just did).

[Westphalian_Musketeer]

Here's hoping the OP lets us know how the meeting went so we can provide incrementally improved advice on how to go about things.

[Guang]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

My post on separation of fantasy and reality was deleted.

So was my anecdote about something that actually happened to me.

And my rebuttal of fantasy vs. reality. One of the few posts I've made that weren't written while sleep-deprived. Ah well. Maybe they thought we were foaming at the mouth, angrily arguing with each other or something.

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

Here's hoping the OP lets us know how the meeting went

This. I hope they work out something that keeps both sides happy and playing together.

[The Dragon]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am not sure how I can ask questions, and give advice, if I don't touch upon the subject of religion, and/or separating fantasy from reality.

If I can't, then my advice is play another game.

Never deal with that subject that cannot be named(which I totally just did).

I suspect that it was because raising the possibility that X (X=someone who's religious) has trouble seperating fantasy from reality regardless of the context it is said in, can easily be construed as a dig at religious people in general.

Note that I'm not accusing you of this. But I think the mods thought the potential for reading what you wrote as "Religious people can't seperate fantasy from reality, hurr durr!" was real enough to remove it.

[blackbloodtroll]

That's why I asked.

[Westphalian_Musketeer]

Well, the OP's meeting should have happened by now. So either things went perfectly alright, and advice is no longer needed, or the detail gone into are sensitive enough to warrant exclusively personal assessment and address of the situation.

Either way, I hope things work out.

[Gallifrey]

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

Well, the OP's meeting should have happened by now. So either things went perfectly alright, and advice is no longer needed, or the detail gone into are sensitive enough to warrant exclusively personal assessment and address of the situation.

Either way, I hope things work out.

Actually its in a few hours, I just had posted that "I was playing with them tomorrow" at 4 in the morning due to my insomniac tendencies. I am planning on updating everyone to know how it went. Also I wanted to thank you all for wishing me and my group well.

[ElementalXX]

Good luck

[Xunal]

Gallifrey wrote:

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

Well, the OP's meeting should have happened by now. So either things went perfectly alright, and advice is no longer needed, or the detail gone into are sensitive enough to warrant exclusively personal assessment and address of the situation.

Either way, I hope things work out.

Actually its in a few hours, I just had posted that "I was playing with them tomorrow" at 4 in the morning due to my insomniac tendencies. I am planning on updating everyone to know how it went. Also I wanted to thank you all for wishing me and my group well.

Hope it all works out. If you want some ideas on how religion could be handled, you could get ideas from Throne of the Crescent Moon by Ahmed Saladin. I thought he handled the monotheism thing pretty well in that book. And it was a cracking good read too!

Not all religious types have problems with fantasy role playing. My (Anglican) priest surprised me; he's got no problem with any of this, because he used to play D&D when he was a kid. And he's got a good sense of humor too, which kind of helps!

[The Shaman]

I hope it works out without too much trouble, but if the players are uncomfortable with a polytheistic world, I'd suggest checking Dark Sun too. The elemental priests can work reasonably well with both an agnostic view of the setting and if you want to have a neutral supreme deity that does not interfere directly.

[Gallifrey]

Xunal- Throne of the Crescent Moon was a damn good read.

I am happy to report that the meeting went off without problems. The player's main issue was with the idea of playing characters of another faith but were completely fine with the gods of the setting and with the other religions existing... they just didn't want to be forced into playing characters who worshiped. So we just glossed over religion for them. I explained the setting background as far as Rovagug and Aroden were concerned, they thought both were cool plot points, and we continued the game.

So all in all, everything went well. I would like to thank everyone again for their support and suggestions. Have a good evening.

[Xunal]

Gallifrey wrote:

Xunal- Throne of the Crescent Moon was a damn good read.

I am happy to report that the meeting went off without problems. The player's main issue was with the idea of playing characters of another faith but were completely fine with the gods of the setting and with the other religions existing... they just didn't want to be forced into playing characters who worshiped. So we just glossed over religion for them. I explained the setting background as far as Rovagug and Aroden were concerned, they thought both were cool plot points, and we continued the game.

So all in all, everything went well. I would like to thank everyone again for their support and suggestions. Have a good evening.

I thought it was jolly good book myself. Luckily it turned out to be a minor problem, so it sounds like all's well. It could always be argued that truly religious types are few and far between in the real world and that would probably be reflected in fantasy settings too.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, that was way different than some thought it was.

Including myself.

Glad things worked out.

[Deadmanwalking]

I also thought Throne of the Crescent Moon was an excellent book, and am very glad things worked out, and were less of an issue in the first place than we thought they were. :)

[pennywit]

Glad things worked out.

[ElterAgo]

Excellentness! Sounds like you are heading toward fun. Have at it.