Curious about the PFS sanctioning of the Godhome level of Emerald Spire superdungeon


GM Discussion

Silver Crusade 4/5

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This is ALL spoilish!:

I just played the Godhome level of the Emerald Spire superdungeon last night and it was a bizarre experience to say the least. The game was basically over in about an hour for our party and we ended up with only 1XP, 1PP, and a small portion of the GP. I'm actually grateful for that much. No one got hurt (not even a single NPC).

It would seem the only way to succeed at the conditions for that level are either you're an evil party (which doesn't work in PFS) or your PFS party is made up of a bunch of players that really don't believe in the Pathfinder mantra and just like to kill things.

To reiterate the basis of the level, it's like this (and in addition to the GM reviewing the details of the module after we finished, we also had another 5-star GM at the table who previously ran it who agreed with those details as reviewed):

You enter the level and are greeted by Troglodyte stench and a Troglodyte leader(type). He welcomes you to the area and suggests you appease their god by offering some iron. He also offers you to try their (yucky) grub food. All the Troglodytes on the level are non-hostile as well as the leader.

We eventually come up with some iron that we had in our gear to appease their "god" (after having one character get stuck to their god with their armor and we had to overcome that). After appeasing the god, the Troglodyte leader offers a complete tour of the level and explanation of all areas on the level and then shows us the secret door which we open that leads to the next level of the dungeon (the Drowned Level).

That's it.

Now, we did figure out that probably we'd have to take down the doors and stick them into the god because it looked like that would work just by looking at the contraption. But, the Troglodytes said they would not allow it.

So, why as "good" Pathfinders would you basically give them the finger and destroy their home anyway by taking down their doors which would eventually force you to kill every single Troglodyte on the level and earning you a successful mission?

The Troglodytes offer no resistance and essentially treated us as guests in their home with no subversive motive that we were aware of (and I don't think there was any other motive).

For PFS play, if you role-play it right, how would a party ever be successful on that level?

Perhaps the level could have been edited to perhaps incite the party for the need to push forward with the idea of dismantling their lair?

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 ****

I ran this for a group that I'm running through Emerald Spire and nearly had very similar results.

Details of what they did.:
They went through as you described and were told to give an offering. They gave some, but didn't actually have enough weight as specified in the scenario (2 lbs./person) that they were willing to give-up. A couple of them had Spire Transport tokens though, so they travelled to the first level where there was plenty of scrap metal that they could bring back. They provided that offering and heard the door open after having previously looked around and made the DC25 Perception check to notice where the door was. I had also previously provided a Knowledge(Arcana) check to the Wizard and a Disable Device check to the Trapfinding Rogue to try and understand the doors surrounding the Godhome device. The Rogue made the check and reasoned that they could be slotted into the the device.

The door-troglodyte gave them the rest of the tour and the Rogue succeeded at a Bluff to convince the troglodyte they were sent by the Godbox to put the doors into the device (his idea). I had the troglodyte tell them that he was ok with them trying it, but if anything happened to the Godbox; he couldn't be responsible for the actions of any of the others. Two of them tried to move a door, but didn't have enough strength. At that point they were ready to leave, and I asked to make sure that was what everyone wanted to do. The two that had tried to lift the door before convinced another to help them and moved one of the doors into the Godbox, which prompted a humming noise from the Godbox.

The nearest group of troglodytes approached with clubs drawn, but not attacking as specified in the scenario (no initiative roll). There was a little bit of a stand-off while people were trying to figure out what was going on that was broken by the Zen Archer letting an arrow loose at the nearest troglodyte holding a club. That led to all out enraged combat, which the Liberty's Edge Brawler refused to participate in beyond stabilizing the hurt troglodytes. Most others only attacked those that actually attacked them.

The question is whether attacking the troglodytes is inherently an evil act. I considered requiring an atonement from the Zen Archer, but even the most good of the party were just looking for a reason to kill the troglodytes, as it's pretty well known that they are mostly CE. I decided not to based on how often a similar situation occurs in PFS scenarios, where if someone is holding a weapon and assumed to be evil; you shoot first and ask questions later.

This allowed them to get their full XP, FP, PP and gold, though the if then statements that fit into the qualifications for the rewards make it likely that you either get 1, the 3 that don't require sacrifice or all of them, since it's unlikely people would just start attacking without provoking attacks by messing with the doors.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Spoiler:
Usually, things are a bit more cut and dried with a "shoot first" situation. It's usually fairly obvious you have either an immediately hostile situation coming up and/or an "obvious" evil that needs to be vanquished. In this case, it was neither. They were nice. There was no reason to fight.

I did a late update of my initial post and noted that perhaps the level can be added so that there should be some reason to incite the players to act in a manner that would be conducive to successfully completing that level with full experience.

4/5

I would point out this level is I believe listed as "Slow Mode" recommended. It might be better just to skip it, and play the next level at full speed.

4/5 *

Emerald Spire was not designed for PFS, so it isn't always a great fit. This is one of those cases.

Silver Crusade 4/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Emerald Spire was not designed for PFS, so it isn't always a great fit. This is one of those cases.

Precisely, yet, that level was sanctioned for PFS.

4/5 *

It was sanctioned, but that doesn't mean it is a great fit. It would be awkward to not sanction only one level of it.

In all sanctioned modules, the GM has some 'splainin' to do, as far as why the PCs are even there and what they should be doing. Some missions are harder to complete, or even totally inappropriate for Pathfinders. Sometimes, "succeeding" would mean joining the dark side. These are the choices that make a scenario more than just kicking in doors and killing stuff.

Silver Crusade 4/5

I thought that part of the sanctioning process involved the possibility of updates to the scenario in question prior to allowing it to be sanctioned? Perhaps that was a bad assumption.

Spoiler:

As far as going to the "darkside", even though there are options to do that in some PFS scenarios, by no means would it be your only conduit to success (at least in anything I've ever played in PFS and I've played through a ton of stuff in all seasons).

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Scott,

Although all modules aren't written with PFS in mind, all Chronicle sheets are. The issue here isn't with what the level demands of the players, but rather with what the Chronicle sheet rewards.

The Chronicle could just as easily have advised the GM that PCs get full rewards for a peaceful interaction with the trogs.

4/5

@Prethren

I'm sorry that you had a GM that went by the book on this with you. Having played and GMed this level myself, the only lesson I can derive as its written is "nice guys finish last". ಠ_ಠ

I wasn't that mean to my players as they decided to RP through it without killing a single trog. I suppose if you have the group look like trogs, and someone has the skills to back it up, it's possible to get through it, still collecting all the required checks for full rewards. You'll probably end up starting a civil war on that floor though. ^_^

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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One of the tricky bits when sanctioning this level was that it has the potential to finish really quickly—especially for an adventure that could grant a full level of XP, PP, and gold. It didn't—and still doesn't—sit well with me to provide a full level's rewards for 1–2 hours of play, yet it's still important that there be the means of acquiring a fair reward (~1 scenario-worth) for pursuing the "quick solution" while expanding that to the full reward if one engages in adventuring "best practices" of securing the treasure and solving a puzzle. After all, walking through a dungeon and bypassing all of the treasure does not a bag of holding fill.

Tsriel wrote:
I suppose if you have the group look like trogs, and someone has the skills to back it up, it's possible to get through it, still collecting all the required checks for full rewards. You'll probably end up starting a civil war on that floor though. ^_^

And this would be a great (but not obligatory) way of getting the full rewards.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

I'm running this in a couple of weeks and one of the things that really stuck out at me when prepping was the reward conditions. I've come up with several in-game ways of stressing that the players are exiting the level with no treasure if they take the "good" route. (Very easy checks to see all the loot they are missing, the unique "keys," and at the end a clear "OK, there's the stairs down.")

I've also been stressing Fort Inevitable and I'm thinking I'll work up a contact who specifically asks them to explore that level and requires them to come back before proceeding further. And he'll say things like "but you didn't figure out how it works!" and "What manner of items might there be for us to research?"

After that it's up to them to decide.

I'm hoping for a solution like Tsriel suggested, especially if they revisit town and prep. I fear it will be straight-out slaying.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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John Compton wrote:

One of the tricky bits when sanctioning this level was that it has the potential to finish really quickly—especially for an adventure that could grant a full level of XP, PP, and gold. It didn't—and still doesn't—sit well with me to provide a full level's rewards for 1–2 hours of play, yet it's still important that there be the means of acquiring a fair reward (~1 scenario-worth) for pursuing the "quick solution" while expanding that to the full reward if one engages in adventuring "best practices" of securing the treasure and solving a puzzle. After all, walking through a dungeon and bypassing all of the treasure does not a bag of holding fill.

Tsriel wrote:
I suppose if you have the group look like trogs, and someone has the skills to back it up, it's possible to get through it, still collecting all the required checks for full rewards. You'll probably end up starting a civil war on that floor though. ^_^
And this would be a great (but not obligatory) way of getting the full rewards.

John, I appreciate your response to this thread. I'm a tad bit confused by part of it though.

Spoiler:
Are you inferring a "good" Pathfinder party would have still found a way to decimate the lair (of hosts that are effectively kind to the party) to get the treasure?
Sczarni 4/5

I think he's saying that if you take the 'good' route, you get quick XP but little loot, and can run quests for the rest of the slot. If you do the 'murderhobo' route you get full loot, but it takes the whole time, and Paladins may have an issue with it.

5/5 *

Prethen wrote:
John, I appreciate your response to this thread. I'm a tad bit confused by part of it though. ** spoiler omitted **

At the end of the day, the party has the choice to solve things peacefully with little reward and little XP. That is the choice you made. It's not that you are "penalized" for being a good guy. It's just the plain logical outcome. You leave ALL the gear and loot on the godbox... Well, if you went in to donate the iron you saw all the loot. It was your choice to leave it behind.

I mean, if you were playing this in a homegame, and your GM told you that you got no treasure for that level because you donated iron and proceeded down, you would't blink an eye about it. It's what your party decided and that's that.

For PFS, the easiest and most elegant solution is you tell your players NOT to slow track as suggested at this time and problem solved! They are back on track.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Carlos Robledo wrote:
For PFS, the easiest and most elegant solution is you tell your players NOT to slow track as suggested at this time and problem solved! They are back on track.

Except... they aren't on track. It causes problems down the road for people running the whole Spire with one character. Assuming full XP for the rest of the levels when they hit the Magma Vault they would be 10.1 and unable to switch to slow track (you can only switch fast to slow or vice versa immediately after you level).

Of course the same problem exists if they do slow track. Any players that do get less than 3 XP (or 1.5 if slow-tracking) are going to need to do non-spire Scenarios to get "back on track."

4/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Put it into a context that PFS agents would understand by giving them a reason to risk a confrontation with the trogs. I created a mission briefing that required them to retrieve one of the items currently stuck to the Godbox. Click here to see that and other mission briefings for Emerald Spire. Successfully completing the mission will mean they achieved at least three of the four "win conditions," and therefore get full credit. If they decide it's not worth aggravating the trogs, or can't find a way to placate them while they work, then they know they're going to be getting only partial credit because that's how most scenarios work.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Brian, I like your idea of making the mission (expanded or) a bit more precise:

Spoiler:
such as retrieving a particular item which would give the pathfinders a real reason to aggravate the trogs.


We just played the Godhome this morning (after the Den, with a 5 star DM) and none of us were too impressed with the writers here. The only way to get access to all the items and get all the XP is essentially to be unnecessarily evil. We had a paladin and a monk in the group. After having our tour of the level and giving a sacrifice to the box, there was little else to do but question the heck out of the residents.

It would have been nice / more impressive / creative / encouraging to have a skill challenge or some such whereby the same amount of XP can be garnered through good actions as well instead of only through bad. At what point did we go from writing a game for heroes to encouraging the players to be the villians? It just seemed lazy writing, instead of a conscious choice, but that's the end result.

There is only one person out of the 6 that has enjoyed the "super"dungeon enough so far to want to continue (and really he just wants the land). I'm not recommending it without some serious tweaks unless the desire is just to have an evil group and do a straightforward hack/slash dungeon crawl.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

When we played it we sort of stumbled into combat.

Spoiler :

Spoiler:

We dealt peacefully with the Trogs and figured out that we needed to put the doors into the slots to turn off the magnet. Managed to convince the one Trog that it was a fine idea, that it would enable them to understand their God better. When the last door went in and the lights went out the Trogs, understandably, panicked and started coming towards us aggressively. The dwarf beat me on initiative, took a readied action to strike with his reach weapon. I then tried diplomacy once again and probably succeeded. But the GM had the Trogs advance (making it clear that they were not actually attacking). The player of the dwarf decided that his character would treat that as hostile and so struck the Trog. Combat to the death (with absolutely no attempt at doing non lethal) then ensued.

So, not quite evil on our part. Seriously non good but not quite evil.

But I did get the impression that some of the other players were basically looking for an excuse to start the slaughter.

My character didn't really care all that much (he is NOT good). Saw no reason to kill the Trogs but wasn't massively upset when the idiot dwarf (hey, he is an elf. That is what he thought :-)) started the fight. And at that point there really was no choice.

I was surprised how easy the fight was. 5 PCs, all the Trogs were basically together, party average was about L4, and it was still essentially a cake walk.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 ****

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pauljathome wrote:

When we played it we sort of stumbled into combat.

Spoiler :

** spoiler omitted **
So, not quite evil on our part. Seriously non good but not quite evil.

But I did get the impression that some of the other players were basically looking for an excuse to start the slaughter.

My character didn't really care all that much (he is NOT good). Saw no reason to kill the Trogs but wasn't massively upset when the idiot dwarf (hey, he is an elf. That is what he thought :-)) started the fight. And at that point there really was no choice.

I was surprised how easy the fight was. 5 PCs, all the Trogs were basically together, party average was about L4, and it was still essentially a cake walk.

I actually would have had it go differently if you'd rolled a little higher on that Diplomacy check. They went to hostile with the deactivation, which made it a DC 25 and I think you rolled ~20. They likely would have strongly encouraged you to sacrifice and /or leave. Though it should be noted that doing so without attacking them would only have gotten you 2 XP, since you wouldn't have been able to collect the metal.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane

In my case, when I ran it with a reasonably good PFS party, they -

Spoiler:
triggered a combat with the trogs by attempting to damage the god box. Up until this point, they had left the trogs alone, and talked with few of them as they explored the level. They had actually mapped out the entire place prior to stopping to deal with the God Box. They had also, in fact, already purposely donated enough cash to have the door open for them. But, they were determined to figure out the puzzle of the God Box and how to turn it off. And then one of the more impulsive players shot an acid splash at it to see if it would affect it, triggering the statues and trogs to attack. (the mod says, on p48, if the players attack the Godbox, all of the trogs go into a frenzy and attack). So, in the process of being inquisitive, they had to kill the trogs in self-defense.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

I'm glad that I played this with the character that I did. Many of my characters would have been SERIOUSLY unhappy with any attempts to kill the Trogs. Including things like the actions such as I described or YogoZuno describes which were clearly very likely to set the Trogs off.

I've got at least a couple of characters who would react to the experimentation we did with "stop that. Now. Otherwise, I am leaving now. If I was allowed, I'd side with the Trogs if your reckless experiments cause them to attack".

4/5

David Neilson wrote:
I would point out this level is I believe listed as "Slow Mode" recommended. It might be better just to skip it, and play the next level at full speed.

Yeah, that was the big issue for my players, too. I hadn't read the chronicle sheet before running it so I didn't push them towards the full rewards and they were all running slow mode: When they took the non-evil route it put them behind for the rest of the dungeon (since they were running everything back to back.)

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane

You don't HAVE to play the scenarios in slow mode, it's just a good idea to ensure you don't out-level later content before getting to it. I did the math, and you only HAVE to use slow mode if you plan on playing all the levels with the same character, and that character started at level 2 for the Ruins.

Scarab Sages 4/5

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pauljathome wrote:

If I was allowed, I'd side with the Trogs if your reckless experiments cause them to attack".

Hey Paul, anytime your high-minded characters want to side with the enemy, I'm in favor of it. We can always dig another grave. ;)

Spoiler:
I'm just trolling you Paul. You are fun to play with and I enjoy your characters. Just be careful not to discount other perspectives. There are several reason to be suspicious of the trogs to the level that a flash point could set things off.

1) everything else in the spire to that point we've had to fight
2) we were given a mission to track down missing pathfinders, whose very expensive gear was sticking to the magnet. (No pathfinder I know parts with magic stuff unless their life is threatened.)
3) trogs typically are CE
4) over-friendly nature of the trogs put us at the center of their dungeon surrounded by superior numbers.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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YogoZuno wrote:
You don't HAVE to play the scenarios in slow mode, it's just a good idea to ensure you don't out-level later content before getting to it. I did the math, and you only HAVE to use slow mode if you plan on playing all the levels with the same character, and that character started at level 2 for the Ruins.

16 levels, ending with tier 11-13, and no slow mode?

Even starting at 1st, you would be at 17th, if possible, without slow mode...

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane

OK, sure, let me try again...

You don't HAVE to play any levels at slow progression unless your character starts at level 2, and you plan on playing levels later than 10, all with the same character.

Better?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
kinevon wrote:
Even starting at 1st, you would be at 17th, if possible, without slow mode...

Which is what was said. You don't HAVE to slow track, but you won't finish it all if you don't.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Cave Mother wrote:
pauljathome wrote:

If I was allowed, I'd side with the Trogs if your reckless experiments cause them to attack".

Hey Paul, anytime your high-minded characters want to side with the enemy, I'm in favor of it. We can always dig another grave. ;)

Depends which high minded character :-). Some of them would make VERY good force multipliers for the Trogs :-) :-). Bards for the win.

As to other perspectives, sure. But I got the strong impression that no character thought it was "RIGHT" to attack, just expedient/fun/rewarding. That people were looking for an excuse. Maybe I was wrong and other characters saw the situation as ethically different than I did.

4/5

I haven't played it, but from the sounds and moans of the players at my last game day I organized, it seems like this chronicle was poorly conceived. I like the idea of having different XP and prestige conditions for modules (I actually think it's a grand idea!), and honestly the players didn't mind that...had it not been for the fact that it is smack dab in the middle of a very large series which, if you do not get 3 XP for the chronicle, causes extreme problems in scheduling and planning for those players..especially for those wanting to play all of Emerald Spire with one character.

I honestly don't see a problem with a 1-2 hour 3 XP session. This isn't something that players are going to be able to replay...it's one player credit, one GM credit, and maybe a star replay, and that's it. Changing how much XP players get on the middle of a series has very bad consequences on the organizers and players of the modules. Yes, the team could potentially not finish a module, but that is more well received in the sense that they didn't "complete" a level instead of where their morality lies.

I feel the chronicle was a step in the right direction as far as module chronicles can go as I always have felt that module credit is too vague in what the GM can and can't give; but I feel it was the wrong place, wrong time for such a chronicle. This is speaking as an organizer here and not a GM or player.

If I were to schedule Emerald Spire again, I would probably just not schedule this level at all and have players go right to Floor 5 and just skip the slow tracking.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

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I was the GM at one of the tables Andrew mentioned yesterday. Most of the players had a good time playing the level. The role-playing with the two tribes and their casual, unshakable faith in the Godbox led to some good moments.

The problem was with the chronicle rewards. I've given out less than full XP/Fame on a module before (usually at conventions when people ran out of time) but this one was very problematic. Most of the players had been planning to play nothing but the Emerald Spire with their character. Getting 1 (or 1/2) XP means they now have to find two non-Spire scenarios to play. Which is messing up the backstory of some of the characters.

I agree with Andrew that the best solution for a non-evil party (PFS) is probably to skip this level. However in turn that means you can't complete the land rush chronicle and more importantly don't get to experience everything. If there's ever another opportunity to play a single module for your entire career, please make sure we don't get in this situation again.

4/5

I think you can still hypothetically completely the landrush boon. I would have to double check the exact wording of some of the boons on the other chronicles though.

4/5

I'm going to be running this level next month. I've had the same reservations about the level, but my one saving grace is that I have one player whose character will not be able to resist the idea of finding out what happens when you put the doors into the machine.

Re: Land Rush, you cannot get all 16 slots on it if you skip any levels of the Emerald Spire as you can only purchase one hex per chronicle.

4/5

Odd, I was under the impression that one of the later boons gave you a land as a freebie.

Grand Lodge 4/5

David Neilson wrote:
Odd, I was under the impression that one of the later boons gave you a land as a freebie.

Nah, it just lets you use one of the purchase slots for free.

2/5

John Compton wrote:

One of the tricky bits when sanctioning this level was that it has the potential to finish really quickly—especially for an adventure that could grant a full level of XP, PP, and gold. It didn't—and still doesn't—sit well with me to provide a full level's rewards for 1–2 hours of play, yet it's still important that there be the means of acquiring a fair reward (~1 scenario-worth) for pursuing the "quick solution" while expanding that to the full reward if one engages in adventuring "best practices" of securing the treasure and solving a puzzle. After all, walking through a dungeon and bypassing all of the treasure does not a bag of holding fill.

Tsriel wrote:
I suppose if you have the group look like trogs, and someone has the skills to back it up, it's possible to get through it, still collecting all the required checks for full rewards. You'll probably end up starting a civil war on that floor though. ^_^
And this would be a great (but not obligatory) way of getting the full rewards.

So may I suggest Pathfinder rescind their rule about playing evil characters, because the chronicle sheet as it is currently printed tells all the players there is absolutely no point playing good or neutral characters, and in fact there is an actual penalty for being such for this level of the superdungeon, which I have just run for my players. They did it the 'nice' way, coughed up the requisite amount of iron, and went on their merry way, only to find that they are getting shafted for not being a bunch of bloodthirsty savages, which to be honest would make them more 'evil' than the troglodytes are supposed to be. Needless to say, they weren't what you would call best pleased, and I can't say I blame them. And by your comment about 'best practice' you seem to confirm the fact we should all be playing evil sods, because if we play good guys we are just going to get continually screwed over.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't see any place in John's response that implies characters should be Evil, nor do I see Good characters not getting full rewards on one chronicle reversing the hundreds of other chronicles where they do, to the point that Evil characters should be allowed.

Your hyperbole does not logically follow to 'PFS should allow Evil characters'.

4/5

I ran this level yesterday. As written, one of the only ways to get full credit without the "Slayer the Troglodytes" condition is to knock them out with nonlethal and tie them up somewhere while you do the sacrifice, then bring the doors in, then loot everything. That has as much to do with the author's conditions in the scenario as it does the chronicle. As I mentioned upthread, I had one player whose character was so eager to figure out the puzzle that there was no way they were doing anything but that, which was honestly the main reason I decided to run the level at all.

I had players honestly trying to not kill the troglodytes while solving the puzzle and get the loot. It was slightly disheartening that they couldn't do what they wanted to, which was diplomatically handle the enemies. One player successfully intimidated 4 of them into a room and tried to protect them from the party, but as soon as the last door went in, he was forced to put them down because they "go into a frenzy." This, mind you, was after 3 hours in a single initiative because of the way they handled the level.

Truly, I understand the conundrum that John was faced with in writing this particular chronicle. I probably would have gone the other way with this given the level's placement within a stand-alone dungeon that can leave players with a Seeker-level character by the end, but I'm not the one making the decision here. Given the divisive nature of this level, I can also completely understand why many GMs have opted to skip this level entirely and act as though it didn't exist. If I didn't have the aforementioned player at the table, I probably would have moved straight to the next level.

5/5 *****

Reading this thread I am especially grateful that this is the one level of our run so far which I have missed.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

If you have an illusionist with you, you can potentially complete this for full PP and XP without even fighting the Troglodytes.

Scarab Sages 4/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

I find the statement "not getting full credit" flawed with respect to the Emerald spire, and in particular the Godhome level.

If you look at PFS scenarios and modules, full credit is:

2 prestige : 1 XP (for scenarios)
1.0 to 1.33 prestige : 1 XP (for modules)
and a commensurate XP:Gold ratio.

Also remember, that 1XP = 4-6 hours of game time. That is an important ratio that we often forget.

If you're getting 1 XP and zero gold, then yes that is not getting full credit. Similarly, getting 1 XP and no prestige, or only 1 prestige on a SCENARIO, or missing half the gold.

The Godhome level gives an appropriate RATIO of XP:PP:GP for all possible outcomes.

I think the factor people are missing, and this is true for all of the levels of the Emerald Spire, is that a module that grants 3XP should take 8-12 hours to play. The reality? Emerald Spire (levels 1-6) take 3-6 hours per level to play.

So when you get 1XP:1PP:1600GP for playing a 2 hour Godhome session, that is an appropriate amount of XP for your play time investment. (in fact, it is TOO MUCH).

You're actually getting MORE XP for time played for all of the OTHER Emerald Spire levels. The Godhome level is more in keeping with what you would get if you played one of the Free RPG day modules (like Master of the Fallen Fortress, or Dawn of the Scarlet Sun, or We Be Goblins).

So I can sympathize with someone who was expecting a 4-5 hour session and only got a 1 hour session. I think that person who feels like they didn't get enough game TIME has a right to be annoyed. But don't feel like you were cheated out of Gold, XP, or prestige. You are WELL ahead of expectations.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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The crux of the problem is not in the variable amount of gold and prestige, but the potential to receive 1 or 2 experience. If your group is attempting to run Emerald Spire consecutively, PCs must be able to change between normal and slow track, or risk leveling out of range of the games. Getting 1 or 2 experience from this game throws off the entire flow, necessitating additional regular scenarios to be inserted to get back on track.

Strangely, it would be better to receive 0 exp for the entire level, than to receive 1 or 2.

Scarab Sages 4/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm just running E.S., not playing it. But if someone were meticulous enough to plan out playing the entire thing (switching between slow and normal), it would be prudent to have a contingency plan in place for something like this.

Mathematically, it's the same problem if you fail a level and get 2/3 XP, or miss part of a multi-round session (and get 2/3 XP).

In either situation, you need a plan to "top off" using normal scenarios.

If your gameday is running these all back to back with no opportunity for such contingency games, you would be in trouble (until you could plan a "make up" session at some point a few sessions down the road).

My perspective is different than most players. If a series is really important to me, I feel that I need to own the planning to make sure it happens the way I want (scheduling). If I'm just attending game days, I accept that things won't always go my way, or go as expected.

(Like if you're playing emerald spire and are sick and miss level X, it's not like everyone is going to reschedule the whole thing just for you... you just miss level X).

Scarab Sages 5/5

Due to the nature of slow/track fast track switching, you can already accommodate missing the occasional game due to illness. By going normal speed for 2 games that would otherwise be slow speed you can catch up, and falling 1 level behind doesn't put you out of range to play the game.

Getting an unusual amount of experience (something other than 3 or 1.5) does disrupt the ability to continue the games.

Grand Lodge 5/5

I GMd this level a couple of weeks ago and my party had no problem getting all the credit on this level. I used the PFS intros created by Brian in the previously mentioned thread. My players opted to use the slow track thinking that they'd use the same characters through the whole Superdungeon run.

They did have problems, when in Level 5 some character deaths happened and I had to give incomplete chronicles because they only got to experience 1/3 of the level before two characters died. I'm running another non-emerald spire scenario for those players and one player got gm-exp for their character.

I guess what I'm trying to say here, is that this level isn't really a problem, because a character death later brings problems to players using the slow track either way. I loved that fact that level 4 chronicle is special and it has different ways to reward the players. We need more of these!

Though threads like these have already infiltrated the players meta-levels, almost all of my players had encountered the reward-system on this level on a another thread.

Grand Lodge 1/5 **

Spoiler:
I was able to charm the two leaders, before disabling the godbox with the doors. I guess the GM didnt have the rest because the leaders would prevent them from attacking a friend

Grand Lodge 5/5 *

Corwin Illum wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

As the Gamemaster in question (who was using the awesome introduction material being provided to the GM Prep Site (yay!))...

My take:
With both of the tribal elders caught in a quandry, they were torn on which way to go... and as the party didn't need a LOT of time to make things go, they never did resolve that and were mostly reduced to a sort of mourning state. Was it generous? Sure... but if someone is committed to getting EVERY Kitsune tail possible [in PFS!], and plays up their successful Charm Persons well? I'm going to give it to them. :)

Don't expect it to ALWAYS be so 'easy', Corwin... :)

3/5

Ran this level tonight for my regular PFS group. They completed the whole thing in approximately one hour and forty five minutes. To their credit, despite being a heavy combat party, they did role play the whole thing and didn't try to attack the Trog's in any way. We had fun because of that as the first three levels were heavy on the combat.

My only grumble was the awkward requirements for XP and PP. A bit more thought and it could have been more worthwhile. I'm not sure my players were happy about that.

4/5 5/55/5

I just ran two groups through the fourth level. One group decided they needed to stick to their Pathfinder roots and investigate the box. They managed to convince the leaders that the box needed maintenance, and did their job so convincingly that I let them get away with it.

The other group was so impressed by the peaceful nature of the troglodytes that they categorically refused to provoke any of them.

In both cases, I think the outcome was satisfying. The second group has a bit of an XP problem now - we're basically playing two filler PFS adventure to make up for this. After checking what everybody had run, we ended up with two season threes set in the Hao Jin tapestry (3-21 and 3-25), so I just put a portal on the transition between level 4 and 5, tweaked the intro a bit, and good to go!

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