(SP) and spell perfection

[Aenanlron]

I've been researching a Dimension door specialist type build. I came across something I feel needs clarification.

Horizon walker gets the (SP) deminsion door 3 + wis /day

Here is what it says about (SP)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.

So using a (SP) is the same as casting the spell.

Spell perfection reads:
Spell Perfection

You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.

Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

So you could use Spell perfection on an (SP) because it allows to add a metamgic feat to it without any increase. logically the only one you'd want would be quicken.

[mplindustries]

No, there is a series of metamagic feats for spell like abilities. They work for free a limited number of times per day as long as your caster level is X levels higher than the spell's (it's different for each metamagic).

[Aenanlron]

You are correct about being a set of Metamagics just for spell like abilites.

But: A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

plus: Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time

RAW means that it would work and give extra milage to spell perfection and preferred spell combo with a (SP)

[Belafon]

CRB FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: Can I use a metamagic feat to alter a spell-like ability?

No. Metamagic feats specifically only affect spells, not spell-like abilities. Also, spell-like abilities do not have spell slots, so you can't adjust the effective spell slot of a spell-like ability.

[Orfamay Quest]

Aenanlron wrote:

You are correct about being a set of Metamagics just for spell like abilites.

But: A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

plus: Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time

RAW means that it would work and give extra milage to spell perfection and preferred spell combo with a (SP)

No.

Since you don't "cast" spell-like abilities, the ability to do something else 'when you cast that spell" is literally never going to happen. Which is why you can't apply metamagic to spell-like abilities in the first place.

To put it another way, you said in the opening post that this "need clarification." You've had it clarified, and it doesn't work. If you were sure that it worked in the first place, why did you ask for clarification?

[Aenanlron]

From the FAQ

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

So that's where my confusion stems it states you cast the spell, but the idea of an (SP) is that you aren't casting it so which is it?

[Orfamay Quest]

Aenanlron wrote:

From the FAQ

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Emphasis added.

We are neither talking about a prerequisite nor a requirement; we're talking about using an existing feat to change how an SLA works.

Quote:

So that's where my confusion stems it states you cast the spell, but the idea of an (SP) is that you aren't casting it so which is it?

You are not casting it, but what you are doing counts as casting for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements, so you can use the SLA to qualify, for example, for the Dimensional Agility feat. You can not, however, use Echoing Spell to gain an additional use per day of the SLA, nor can you use Enlarge Spell to increase the range of your teleportation.

[Aenanlron]

Then by your interpretation, since you don't "cast" the spell it invalidates the mandate of meeting the requirement of "able to cast Dimension door." and thus in that manner cannot be used for per-requisites of prestige classes.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

that is what I'm saying in one way they say it's casting a spell. but on the other hand i think the idea is that it's an ability and not meant to be "cast" so they contradict each other.

I'm playing devils advocate for this so please no anger. ; )

[mplindustries]

You do "cast" SLAs, but regular metamagic feats still don't work. There's a faq that directly says as much.

[Aenanlron]

Ah so the way we close the issue is based around.

Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level

thanks for the help guys.

[mplindustries]

Spell perfection requires several feats and 15th level. Quicken SLA requires you be CL 16 to quicken dimension door and it works 3 times per day. A horizon walker can only use dimension door 3+wis times per day anyway, so it's cheaper opportunity costwise, and almost as good.

Spell perfection, if it worked (which it doesn't) would trade 15 skill ranks and two feats for Wis per day more quickened dimension doors. Not worth it in my mind.

[Aenanlron]

yeah the reason I was looking into it was because of the investment for spell perfection to see if there was a way to get extra mileage out of it. like you said it's a big investment and there are other ways to achieve it.