Goblin Squad Member
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After voicing my support for the occationsl risk of robbery and brutal death (ie PvP) when gathering resources, it was pointed out to me that it would only lead to the phenomena of "gathering in the nude".
The logic behind this was that without anything to steal or lose (except a piece of rock or two) there would be no reason to bother peacful gatheres.
As I expressed elsewhere the concept of "gathering in the nude" is a type of min/maxing I do not support, but I understand the thought and the reasoning behind it. Actually I can't condemn it (on other than RPG reasons) as it is the logical solution to a problem presented (PvP vs Crafting, that is).
However, in the real world (Golarion or whatever) "Gatherers" seldom are in the nude, escecially if they are under threat if getting killed and as I'm a bit irked by this ... discrepancy , I did a bit of thinking while I prepared my breakfast this morning.
The phenomena is of course stemming from the low cost (or no cost) of dying when you are "in the nude". Baring adressing that (in my NWN module I was working on I solved it with a minigame but that is a bit beside the point actually) I have to hit the problem at another point.
I see two ways that in combination would make a solution.
1) Gathering something else than a few unit of the lowest quality of material requires tools (and no frakking 20 durability).
2) When gathering some low level monsters comes around (goblins and wolves springs to mind) checking what the noises are about. This is abstractes as a check versus Weapons and Armours, if they find the noisemaker to well protected they sneak of in search for something easier to eat., if failing a little mob of pesky creatures spawn and sours the day for our streaking gatherer.
Observe in the latter case no actuall skill with the equipment is needed, it is just for show. And it hasn't to be Heavy Armour and a Greatsword either. Just a sensible amount of equipment.
Now I leave the floor to you and let the screaming and tomato pelting begin!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's the resources you are gathering that the bandits are after anyway. You can solve the issue of "gathering in the nude" but concerns about "gathering in the nude" are not a legitimate basis for opposition to banditry. It only makes it easier for them to get at their true objective.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eventually individual gathering will be eclipsed by outposts that are harvesting resources in bulk.
Bandits will shift from attacking gatherers in the wilderness, unless shear boredom must be resolved, and become raiders of outposts or the caravans that link those outposts to their respective settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And if you're not a bandit and you're goal is simply to interfere with their gathering so that your own gatherers can get to the nodes, then it makes it that much easier to kill them, and keep killing them if they come back.
Edit: lol just realized, it really is "strip" mining :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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And if you're not a bandit and you're goal is simply to interfere with their gathering so that your own gatherers can get to the nodes, then it makes it that much easier to kill them, and keep killing them if they come back.
Bingo. That's the reason this had to be done. Without feuds in there was no way to defend your resources.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am starting to see recipes for expert toolkits. Someone else mentioned 'holdout weapons' which a dev confirmed is a weapon for commoners. From the combat guide we know commoner armor feats boost gathering skills.
Tier 1 seems like a free for all where anyone can be a jack of any trade and master of all at some point. Some players will qualify and spend enough training on all roles, all gathering and to some degree all crafting and refining.
After Tier 1 I'm assuming the intent is to require characters to highly specialize. At Tier 2 it will be very difficult to specialize in more than one role and keep up with a dedicated player and impossible to simultaneously 'adventure' vs 'craft'. At Tier 3 I'm assuming it will be even more specialized, where even within Roles you'll have hard choices to make (class features, armor, attacks). For crafting you'll have to choose refiner, crafter or gatherer.
The same will probably apply to 'nude gathering'. Enjoy it at Tier 1, because once the training and gear is in place I think the economic system will be tweaked to favor it in Tier 2 and require it in Tier 3.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now that encumbrance is in I'm not seeing why a part of the inventory needs to be destroyed on death. There isn't much in the inventory so the husk should end up with 90% of it, not 10%.
I think it is for keeping stuff go out of the economy, so I think it is imortant to keep it, the exact number mayhaps need to be changed ...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eventually individual gathering will be eclipsed by outposts that are harvesting resources in bulk.
Bandits will shift from attacking gatherers in the wilderness, unless shear boredom must be resolved, and become raiders of outposts or the caravans that link those outposts to their respective settlements.
Clarification for new readers...
Actually, individual gathering will be eclipsed by larger scale harvesting using kits on gusher nodes. Materials for player gear will always come from those resource nodes.
Outposts will produce "bulk resources", used in settlement-level improvements and upgrade. Not normal resources in bulk quanties, but a different set of resources.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's the resources you are gathering that the bandits are after anyway. You can solve the issue of "gathering in the nude" but concerns about "gathering in the nude" are not a legitimate basis for opposition to banditry. It only makes it easier for them to get at their true objective.
And that added what, to the thread? Was it an approval or do you deject my idea?
Or was it just a general fart in the general direction of .... Something?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eventually individual gathering will be eclipsed by outposts that are harvesting resources in bulk.
Bandits will shift from attacking gatherers in the wilderness, unless shear boredom must be resolved, and become raiders of outposts or the caravans that link those outposts to their respective settlements.
Perhaps, but not soon, not everywhere and not always ...
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Goblin Squad Member
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...outposts that are harvesting resources in bulk.Those outposts, we've been told, will be generating exactly the kind of attention you expect, Schedim, but from actual spawned creatures, not an abstract check.
I knew I read something in that way, but as you say it will depend on non cleared hexes, this could be seen as a system light for those of us that want to live in the frontier ....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am starting to see recipes for expert toolkits. Someone else mentioned 'holdout weapons' which a dev confirmed is a weapon for commoners. From the combat guide we know commoner armor feats boost gathering skills.
Tier 1 seems like a free for all where anyone can be a jack of any trade and master of all at some point. Some players will qualify and spend enough training on all roles, all gathering and to some degree all crafting and refining.
After Tier 1 I'm assuming the intent is to require characters to highly specialize. At Tier 2 it will be very difficult to specialize in more than one role and keep up with a dedicated player and impossible to simultaneously 'adventure' vs 'craft'. At Tier 3 I'm assuming it will be even more specialized, where even within Roles you'll have hard choices to make (class features, armor, attacks). For crafting you'll have to choose refiner, crafter or gatherer.
The same will probably apply to 'nude gathering'. Enjoy it at Tier 1, because once the training and gear is in place I think the economic system will be tweaked to favor it in Tier 2 and require it in Tier 3.
Yepp, that is how I guess it will pan out, but the breaking point and when is a bit up in the air right now...
Depending on how the flow of people to/from/in the game will be the niche for JoTs will be smaller or greater. The nice thing with this XP system is that it will never be to late to change career, it will just take time. During that time i fancy I will hangout in the Taverns telling stories and gossiping.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's the resources you are gathering that the bandits are after anyway. You can solve the issue of "gathering in the nude" but concerns about "gathering in the nude" are not a legitimate basis for opposition to banditry. It only makes it easier for them to get at their true objective.And that added what, to the thread? Was it an approval or do you deject my idea?
Or was it just a general fart in the general direction of .... Something?
I'm saying you're proposing a solution to a non-issue and whoever raised the concern about nude gathering is complaining about nothing.
As is there are two meaningful choices.
Option A: Gather in the nude. Risk no gear but make yourself an easy target for anyone who wants to steal your resources.
Option B: Gear for combat. Risk the loss of gear but give yourself a better chance to defend what you've gathered.
Or any combination of those two (Partially gearing to lower risk while giving yourself some chance of fighting back.)
Also I believe it was announced that at some point they'll be adding gear that gives bonuses valuable to gatherers. I know carry capacity gear is already confirmed and wouldn't be surprised to hear about additional bonuses like how many resources you can extract from a node etc.
That will eventually give.
Option C: Gear for gathering. Put yourself at higher risk than option A and higher vulnerability than option B in order to carry more/gather more/gather faster etc.
All meaningful choices. All pretty balanced if they get gear costs and the bonuses from gathering gear right. There is just no reason to penalize nude gatherers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Much better Andius!
Hmmm I hope you are right, and it sounds resonable that I may have overreacted to the nude gathering criticism (or had too vividly nightmares of nude dwarven butts wiggling in the air everywhere).
And carrying gear may actually be so important that the difference to nude gathering is significant. I had forgot how important they are...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Harvesters *could* always wear threaded Tier 1 armor, the lightest that fits their armor feat. Higher skills harvest faster, etc.
Miner/Sawyer = Pinoeer Feat: Light armor, Movement Speed and Mining/Sawing skill bonus (outrun them)
Dowser = Guide Feat: Cloth armor, Perception and Dowsing skill bonus. (see them in time to run away)
Scavenger = Rambler Feat: Light armor, Stealth and Scavenging skill bonus (stay out of sight)
& if you wear armor, you carry less. If you carry less, the bandits get a smaller 'prize'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gear loss by gatherers isn't really what drives these kind of economies. War is what drives them. In a gear loss game war is quickly going to evolve into two types of engagements:
1. Destruction based skirmishes. Whoever inflicts more gear loss on the other party wins. This will be a constant ongoing 24/7 thing in which aggressors gear up in cheap to moderate value gear and go terrorize the opposing faction. The EVE equivalents are roaming gangs and gate camps.
2. Objective based battles. Fights over points of interest, settlements, etc. People are generally going to gear up in their highest grade equipment for these kind of engagements which means a lot of lost gear in a very short period of time. In EVE these are the kinds of engagement where you hear that if you converted the value of the ships lost to PLEX there was like 10k$ that got blown up, though I don't expect PFO will ever be able to have battles on that kind of scale.
The point of the first is widdle down both the economy and the morale of the opposing side so they can't field as much during the 2nd. Basically if you break the morale of your enemy causing many of their players to quit the game, their economy to crash, and their faction to even possibly disband, then you have eliminated them as a threat and their lands are now available to you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gear loss by gatherers isn't really what drives these kind of economies. War is what drives them. In a gear loss game war is quickly going to evolve into two types of engagements:
1. Destruction based skirmishes. Whoever inflicts more gear loss on the other party wins. This will be a constant ongoing 24/7 thing in which aggressors gear up in cheap to moderate value gear and go terrorize the opposing faction. The EVE equivalents are roaming gangs and gate camps.
2. Objective based battles. Fights over points of interest, settlements, etc. People are generally going to gear up in their highest grade equipment for these kind of engagements which means a lot of lost gear in a very short period of time. In EVE these are the kinds of engagement where you hear that if you converted the value of the ships lost to PLEX there was like 10k$ that got blown up, though I don't expect PFO will ever be able to have battles on that kind of scale.
The point of the first is widdle down both the economy and the morale of the opposing side so they can't field as much during the 2nd. Basically if you break the morale of your enemy causing many of their players to quit the game, their economy to crash, and their faction to even possibly disband, then you have eliminated them as a threat and their lands are now available to you.
And you really want to pass on all that fun? :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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TBH the $10K figure quoted is probably closer to the current real world ratio to replace just one Titan not the losses of a major EVE battle.
I recall the estimated real world cost if you were to replace the ships lost in B-R5RB by buying PLEX was between $250,000 and half a million and PLEX are up about 30% since then. Hence a similiar EVE battle this month could destroy up to the real world equivalent of $US750,000 worth of game assets in a single day.
That is however a meaningless figure as very few of those ships were actually purchased with real money and PLEX, they were actually paid for by renters and built by alts. The figure is a hypothetical based on "what if you actually used PLEX to build all those ships" and is designed to make impressive numbers in the game forums for publicity.
Back on Topic: The main motivation to gather nude once encumbrance is in was to increase inventory space for materials. The reduced risk if you get randomly ganked was just a nice side effect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The point of the first is widdle down both the economy and the morale of the opposing side so they can't field as much during the 2nd. Basically if you break the morale of your enemy causing many of their players to quit the game, their economy to crash, and their faction to even possibly disband, then you have eliminated them as a threat and their lands are now available to you.
The part in bold is short sighted and counter productive for the conqueror. One ideal "victory condition" would also include forcing the conquered settlement to become a vassal to the conqueror. Short of quitting the game, they decide that it is better to pay the extorted amount.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The part in bold is short sighted and counter productive for the conqueror. One ideal "victory condition" would also include forcing the conquered settlement to become a vassal to the conqueror. Short of quitting the game, they decide that it is better to pay the extorted amount.
jfr Djingis Khan and his predecessors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Aren't items that increase carry capacity already a confirmed feature? I believe that the characters that can carry the most will be the characters wearing the gear that allows them to do so.
Yes, bags and pouches are already in the crafting system. They are worn in the same slots as cloaks and belts. Until cloaks and belts are more useful than carrying capacity, I'd imagine a lot of people will just carry bags.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The part in bold is short sighted and counter productive for the conqueror. One ideal "victory condition" would also include forcing the conquered settlement to become a vassal to the conqueror. Short of quitting the game, they decide that it is better to pay the extorted amount.jfr Djingis Khan and his predecessors.
renters
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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rentersThe part in bold is short sighted and counter productive for the conqueror. One ideal "victory condition" would also include forcing the conquered settlement to become a vassal to the conqueror. Short of quitting the game, they decide that it is better to pay the extorted amount.jfr Djingis Khan and his predecessors.
Clearly it's the nullsec miners that understand the politics of EVE best. There's no practical difference between a group that "extorts" people into paying for (actual) protection in "their" space and a group that accepts payment for providing actual protection to a group in "their" space. That's the core mechanic of the alliance game; will the military force protecting one area simultaneously provide sufficient protection to their resource pipeline to equip themselves and project sufficient power onto their enemy's to prevent them from equipping themselves?
The answer, as far as I can tell, is mostly "no". It could just be that the groups that get ground into dust don't make it to the sources that I looked in, and I have seen only the exceptions, but I suspect that the typical ways that alliances fall are wildcards (like somebody forgetting to pay the bill, or a key director changing sides).