The fireball can explode out of the range of the fighter, but to answer your question there are no direct rules for it. I would think he would be better off readying an action to shoot it with a bow.
Base AC is 10. It would get a +8 bonus to AC for being so small, so we are at an 18 already, and since it is moving I would apply a +0 for dex.
PS: There is no hard and fast rule for this. This is just how I think the rule would work if there were an official one.
The same AC would need to be hit for a body block also.
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Honestly?
if the bead is travelling within striking distance from the ground (meaning he can just walk into it/tackle it) then I would just let him do it, no rolls. I mean HE IS BODYTACKLING A FIREBALL!!! <-this is the kind of awesome you don't want to dicourage in a player.
If you're afraid if this being potentially a new and easy way to make fireballs obolete (how much is his fire resistance really?!), then I would make it a CMB roll vs either the caster level of the wizard or an opposing spellcraft check (
Ex: I see you running towards the bead I just launched, I realize what you're trying to do and have to make last minute adjustment to my spell and try to maintain some minor control to manouver it around you even though I already let go of it, sweat accumulates on my forehead as I have to attemt stuff my teacher told me "would never be needed, I mean how many people will be running AT your spells apprentice? hahaha!" -I hated that old man ...
yeah, either just let him do it or if the opponent understands what he's doing make it a CMB vs spellcraft opposed check.
-if the bead is hard to reach (if he's launching it from a higher position f.ex.) then increase the dc by 5 per increment, or if it get's to high up: use acrobatics/climb to jump or scale walls and throw himself at it ...
I could actually see this becoming a potential problem if you replaced 'fighter' with 'rogue' or 'monk' thanks to (improved) evasion. Seeing as fireball has a mechanic for slightly adjusting the path of the spell already (the touch attack to pass through a hole) I would have the wizard roll against touch AC (maybe add in shield bonus to the AC as well) to see if they can miss the fighter. Rolling under touch AC(+shield?) in this case would indicate that the fighter managed to successfully interpose themself into the path of the spell. I feel like this works well as a model since it more readily shows that the fighter performed a dexterous act than a CMB check would.
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I don't know about rules, but common sense tells me that if you're bodytackling a fireball you don't get to make a reflex save.
...
then again, ok ...
...I guess technically you could launch yourself at the bead to detonate it prematurely then immediately throw yourself away/run like a bat out of hell .. but I would give any reflex saves some hefty minuses - you are after all, at ground zero when the thing goes of,you pretty much have to "outrun an explosion".
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Lets hope they never make a feat for this.
I would just let a player do this, make a Roll and go with that. Just like 80%,of the stuff was done. Back in the days :)
If you can shoot a fireball through an arrow slit, I'm sure you can quite easily make it go around the person, between their legs, through the crook of their elbow, etc.
The bead doesn't have to be shot in a perfectly straight line.
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as a fromer firebal thrower i must also mark that the ball doesn't even have to go ground level. i have more then once sent one more then 10 feet above the targets to exlode in the air and cook them(while avoiding my in-the-way so called teamates).
and i also agree with LuxuriantOak . i think that to catch it should it pass neer enough he shuld get a ref save to hit it. but should he manage it. then he take full damage .as he intend on NOT avoiding it.(even with evesion - si like deciding to fail a save. you automatickly fail it)
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If you can shoot a fireball through an arrow slit, I'm sure you can quite easily make it go around the person, between their legs, through the crook of their elbow, etc.
The bead doesn't have to be shot in a perfectly straight line.
You seem to be making that one up.
I meen there is no indication of that in the Spell description or in the general rules for shooting.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know about rules, but common sense tells me that if you're bodytackling a fireball you don't get to make a reflex save.
...
then again, ok ...
...I guess technically you could launch yourself at the bead to detonate it prematurely then immediately throw yourself away/run like a bat out of hell .. but I would give any reflex saves some hefty minuses - you are after all, at ground zero when the thing goes of,you pretty much have to "outrun an explosion".
That bead is small. You might actually miss. If you can miss hitting a an object that is stationary then I can definitely see you missing a moving bead. As an example a barn is a lot easier to hit than a ball in motion, which is likely bigger than that bead.
If you can shoot a fireball through an arrow slit, I'm sure you can quite easily make it go around the person, between their legs, through the crook of their elbow, etc.
The bead doesn't have to be shot in a perfectly straight line.
You seem to be making that one up.
I meen there is no indication of that in the Spell description or in the general rules for shooting.
Actually the spell does say you can shoot the bead through a small hole. You just have to hit the proper AC.
If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
That bead is small. You might actually miss. If you can miss hitting a an object that is stationary then I can definitely see you missing a moving bead. As an example a barn is a lot easier to hit than a ball in motion, which is likely bigger than that bead.I don't know about rules, but common sense tells me that if you're bodytackling a fireball you don't get to make a reflex save.
...
then again, ok ...
...I guess technically you could launch yourself at the bead to detonate it prematurely then immediately throw yourself away/run like a bat out of hell .. but I would give any reflex saves some hefty minuses - you are after all, at ground zero when the thing goes of,you pretty much have to "outrun an explosion".
true enough, that's why I included the alternative to roll cmb vs caster lvl or opposed spellcraft. Or maybe a flat difficulty, maybe 25? or what say you?
But then again do we really have to roll for every little thing?
Sometimes the character just charges certain death with a smile on his face to save his friends, and that's cool too.
since there is no right answer this will always be judged on a case-by-case-basis. using CMB for tackling and acrobatics for jumping is more than good enough for me.
Edit: got to say that the idea is tickling my awesome-nerve something fierce, now I'm going to have to carpet bomb my player with fireballs throughout the next story to force this heroic moment on them ... ;)
That bead is small. You might actually miss. If you can miss hitting a an object that is stationary then I can definitely see you missing a moving bead. As an example a barn is a lot easier to hit than a ball in motion, which is likely bigger than that bead.I don't know about rules, but common sense tells me that if you're bodytackling a fireball you don't get to make a reflex save.
...
then again, ok ...
...I guess technically you could launch yourself at the bead to detonate it prematurely then immediately throw yourself away/run like a bat out of hell .. but I would give any reflex saves some hefty minuses - you are after all, at ground zero when the thing goes of,you pretty much have to "outrun an explosion".
true enough, that's why I included the alternative to roll cmb vs caster lvl or opposed spellcraft. Or maybe a flat difficulty, maybe 25? or what say you?
But then again do we really have to roll for every little thing?
Sometimes the character just charges certain death with a smile on his face to save his friends, and that's cool too.
since there is no right answer this will always be judged on a case-by-case-basis. using CMB for tackling and acrobatics for jumping is more than good enough for me.
I am sure the caster having his spell wasted does not see it as a small thing. Whether it is an NPC or a PC, if they are tip toeing on defeat they want to know the enemy has a chance at failing.
PS:It might have been you, but someone had the idea of giving up the reflex save if they "tackled" the bead. That is also realistic. I don't know if I would do that to the tackler though. I would probably ask the group since the ruling would go for both PC's and NPC's.
There are no RAW for this. This entire discussion should be moved to homebrew.
That said:
If I were to allow anyone to intercept a fireball bead, then I might/might not require a check on the intercepters part and if succesful I would disallow a saving throw from the intercepter.
I agree that this should go to homebrew.
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If you can shoot a fireball through an arrow slit, I'm sure you can quite easily make it go around the person, between their legs, through the crook of their elbow, etc.
The bead doesn't have to be shot in a perfectly straight line.
You seem to be making that one up.
I meen there is no indication of that in the Spell description or in the general rules for shooting.Actually the spell does say you can shoot the bead through a small hole. You just have to hit the proper AC.
If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
we agree on that part and nobody ever said otherwise. But because you can aim the Spell nothing in the rules suggest you can control it after you let it go.
Rynjins argument seem to be that if you can aim the Spell, you can also direct it after it left your hand. And mine is that there is no basis for that assumsion.
If I were to allow anyone to intercept a fireball bead, then I might/might not require a check on the intercepters part and if succesful I would disallow a saving throw from the intercepter.
I think that's the bestt summation of everything said so far on the subject.
It might be important to note that if this happened once then making up a roll or the lack of one on the fly is perfectly fine. But if the party makes this a reacurring tactic in any fight against blasters ("I Move To Intercept! my resistance is over 9000 btw-lol") then a more balanced aproached must be found.
I guess the only quick guideline for what to roll would be that that it should be easy, intuitive and there should be both a chance to fail or to succeed for both parties.
If I were to allow anyone to intercept a fireball bead, then I might/might not require a check on the intercepters part and if succesful I would disallow a saving throw from the intercepter.I think that's the bestt summation of everything said so far on the subject.
It might be important to note that if this happened once then making up a roll or the lack of one on the fly is perfectly fine. But if the party makes this a reacurring tactic in any fight against blasters ("I Move To Intercept! my resistance is over 9000 btw-lol") then a more balanced aproached must be found.
I guess the only quick guideline for what to roll would be that that it should be easy, intuitive and there should be both a chance to fail or to succeed for both parties.
There are several ways to intersept fireball like this (Readyed action-Wall of Stone in front of the caster is a good one) but fire Ball is almost alone among the spells for being vulnerabel to this tactic. I see if you have a blockbuster wizard rigth out of the guide in almost every encounter it May be dull. But then again it most likely already is.
Side question: Could a gunslinger ready an action to shoot the bead? What would the AC be?
Side question: Could a gunslinger ready an action to shoot the bead? What would the AC be?
Since we are writing for this to move the the homebrew part i will say yes. Touch 18 pehaps 20.(if it get a+2 ad hoc for speed)
So, here's something to think about. Say you have someone who is readied to counter a spell. He identifies it as a fireball. Is he locked into countering it with an appropriate countering spell (dispel magic, fireball, etc), or can he take any similar spellcasting effect? What if he instead cast Stone Call centered a square or two in front of the caster, causing the fireball to impact the stones, causing the wizard to take both the 2d6 Stone Call damage AND the fireball damage? That's some good times right there.
I'm guessing there are quite a few area spells that this would work with. Pretty much anything that the projectile could 'impact' with would work.
Stone call wouldent do a thing in my game. And if you ready a counter Spell the you get to counterspell not some other action that May or may not mess with the casting.
If you can shoot a fireball through an arrow slit, I'm sure you can quite easily make it go around the person, between their legs, through the crook of their elbow, etc.
The bead doesn't have to be shot in a perfectly straight line.
You seem to be making that one up.
I meen there is no indication of that in the Spell description or in the general rules for shooting.Actually the spell does say you can shoot the bead through a small hole. You just have to hit the proper AC.
If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.we agree on that part and nobody ever said otherwise. But because you can aim the Spell nothing in the rules suggest you can control it after you let it go.
Rynjins argument seem to be that if you can aim the Spell, you can also direct it after it left your hand. And mine is that there is no basis for that assumsion.
My assumption is based on more rules than people jumping in front of Fireballs to stop them.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
No more than firing a bullet through a narrow hole requires control of some kind.
No more than firing a bullet through a narrow hole requires control of some kind.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
This.
So, here's something to think about. Say you have someone who is readied to counter a spell. He identifies it as a fireball. Is he locked into countering it with an appropriate countering spell (dispel magic, fireball, etc), or can he take any similar spellcasting effect? What if he instead cast Stone Call centered a square or two in front of the caster, causing the fireball to impact the stones, causing the wizard to take both the 2d6 Stone Call damage AND the fireball damage? That's some good times right there.
I'm guessing there are quite a few area spells that this would work with. Pretty much anything that the projectile could 'impact' with would work.
Ready an action to counterspell is a specific readied action. Which is different than, ready to cast a spell on the condition they cast a spell.
You could ready to cast a spell when they cast a spell, stone call them, and make them take a concentration check to maintain their spell, the problem comes from how readied actions work. Either they are in the middle of casting their spell, and it hasn't gone off yet. Or it has gone off, so its effects are resolved.
No more than firing a bullet through a narrow hole requires control of some kind.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
Perhaps. Still, where is the rule that lets you intercept spells in flight? Bullets and melee attacks have several Feats for it.
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I could actually see this becoming a potential problem if you replaced 'fighter' with 'rogue' or 'monk' thanks to (improved) evasion.
The way a reflex save works when you're in the middle of a fireball is already difficult enough to wrap your head around.
If someone wants to willingly jump in the way of a fireball as a readied action, I'd rule that's the opposite of trying to "evade" it, and I'd give them a standard reflex save for half, but not their evasion benefit.
I think that's a pretty generous compromise for such a foolhardy maneuver.
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I could actually see this becoming a potential problem if you replaced 'fighter' with 'rogue' or 'monk' thanks to (improved) evasion.The way a reflex save works when you're in the middle of a fireball is already difficult enough to wrap your head around.
If someone wants to willingly jump in the way of a fireball as a readied action, I'd rule that's the opposite of trying to "evade" it, and I'd give them a standard reflex save for half, but not their evasion benefit.
I think that's a pretty generous compromise for such a foolhardy maneuver.
If I let someone purposely intercept the fireball, it would be at full effect. No save.
Perhaps. Still, where is the rule that lets you intercept spells in flight? Bullets and melee attacks have several Feats for it.No more than firing a bullet through a narrow hole requires control of some kind.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
It is in the description of a fireball spell.
It is in the description of a fireball spell.Perhaps. Still, where is the rule that lets you intercept spells in flight? Bullets and melee attacks have several Feats for it.No more than firing a bullet through a narrow hole requires control of some kind.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
The description of the fireball spell does not permit for characters to try to intercept the fireball. There is a clause about having to aim it through a narrow passage way such as an arrow slit. One does not allow the other.
The bead doesn't have to be shot in a perfectly straight line.
Actually it does, ...just elsewhere.
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
All a person needs to do is get in the flight path. An invisible rogue is great for this. sphere of resistance, invisible stalker, stone shape, a dominated barbarian. All it really takes is a readied action to move (and a knowledge of where the pea will travel).
I remember some clever goblins putting a mirror at a 45 degree angle in a hallway. It looked like the halls was strait for sixty feet, but 30 feet in 'BOOM' fireball takes out a mirror. (and the goblins giggled a lot :)
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I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.
The description of the fireball spell does not permit for characters to try to intercept the fireball. There is a clause about having to aim it through a narrow passage way such as an arrow slit. One does not allow the other.It is in the description of a fireball spell.Perhaps. Still, where is the rule that lets you intercept spells in flight? Bullets and melee attacks have several Feats for it.No more than firing a bullet through a narrow hole requires control of some kind.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
Intercept is the wrong word.
quoted above...You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
It is a unique (or near unique) rule to the fireball.
So to detonate the fireball early means putting a material body or solid barrier in its path. (ie: readied to move). Which, is... actually what intercept means, so I guess it is the right word :)
Intercept is the wrong word.
quoted above...
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.It is a unique (or near unique) rule to the fireball.
Your point?
If you ready an action to "if he casts a spell" then he still hasn't chosen the target for the spell, and can simply change the origin to not go through your square.
If you ready it for "when he finishes casting the spell" then the effect has already gone off.
You can't ready an action of "when he fires an arrow I want to grab it out of the air because time stops while my readied action goes off." Same thing with the fireball projectile.
My point was that the rule is in the spell.
You responded while I was editing. Does that help?
Also 'tis a free action, but it can be done, so I would let someone ready it. :)
Frankly ready action: move is something my PCs use against charges, spells, reach weapons, breath weapons and the like. It forces the opponent to commit to an action for the little cost of my action for the turn.
I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.
There's a difference between "enabling player creativity" and "allowing the player to do whatever he wants, regardless of rules".
If I allow this, it sets a precedent. Players can intercept anything at this point. Ranged attacks become worthless.
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I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.There's a difference between "enabling player creativity" and "allowing the player to do whatever he wants, regardless of rules".
If I allow this, it sets a precedent. Players can intercept anything at this point. Ranged attacks become worthless.
it's creative, but Rynjin has a point.
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I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.There's a difference between "enabling player creativity" and "allowing the player to do whatever he wants, regardless of rules".
If I allow this, it sets a precedent. Players can intercept anything at this point. Ranged attacks become worthless.
I like the idea, but I think it should not be easy, since you are trying to place yourself in the path.
I agree that you get no save, because you are deliberately accepting its effects.
If a precedent is set, the precedent is "you can take a hit for another, but you do get hit without a save".
/cevah
I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.
Allowing someone to alter the area of effect of someone else's spell is not a minor thing. If you allow this the interceptor is determining where the spell goes off, not the caster.
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It's awesome.
Let him do it but make him take the full damage of the fireball and then it detonates around him prematurely.
What Krith said. If they want to eat a fireball for someone? Sure, let them.
However, if you find him abusing that...then just start throwing lightning bolts. You cannot body block a lightning bolt.
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I think my main concern here is I don't see a reason you couldn't do the same blocking for an arrow, so it's setting a potentially powerful precedent. I was curious about how fast they travel since that was a possible differentiator. Since a 10th level caster can send it 800 feet within their standard action, I think 200 feet per second is a fairly safe estimate. According to the first Google result, recurve (I read that as "fancy") bows shoot around 225 feet per second, so I'll call that close enough.
So while I want to allow it because awesome, I don't want to let it cancel archers in a similar way. If it's a game with hero points, there you go. If not, I would say some kind of opposed roll only if the bead travels through a threatened square.
Tell the player to use a Hero point since that is what those are for.
My point was that the rule is in the spell.
You responded while I was editing. Does that help?Also 'tis a free action, but it can be done, so I would let someone ready it. :)
Frankly ready action: move is something my PCs use against charges, spells, reach weapons, breath weapons and the like. It forces the opponent to commit to an action for the little cost of my action for the turn.
Deflect arrows is a feat, with both prerequisites and usage requirements (hand free) which only works for attacks directed at yourself.
You cannot ready an action to "When the archer shoots his bow, I want to move in front of him, and grab the arrow out of the air." Even if you have the deflect or snatch arrows feats, the attack wasn't aimed at you, so you can't deflect/snatch the arrow.
Ready action move is fine. Ready action move and do something else is not. You can only ready a standard, move, swift, or free action. You can also take a 5' step as part of it. You cannot ready a move and standard action.
At best, the character could provide soft cover to the origin point the spellcaster is targeting by moving in the way. The spellcaster then would have to make a ranged touch attack against the grid intersection. AC 5 + soft cover + 4 = AC 9. If the spellcaster happened to have improved precise shot, that would drop back to AC 5.