I've toyed with guns everywhere settings many times before, but there are some issues getting Pathfinder to fit that combat style, combined with the fact that I tend toward thematic setting styles. Currently, I'm working on a medieval magitech setting, but with the way it is written it should be able to swap out that tech level for a late 19th century or even mid 20th century guns everywhere without needing too many modifications. So, it's a setting that accommodates multiple different technological preferences, depending on what I'm in the mood for.
What I need, however, is a good set of rules that emphasizes gun combat. I don't want to buy a different system for several reasons I don't want to get into here, so I need to write my own. I'm going with a Pathfinder derivative that lacks reverse compatibility, sort of like D20 Modern but with a very different design philosophy. First off, I'm using themed classes and archetypes, just like Pathfinder, rather than ability score based classes and advanced/prestige classes (my loathing of ability score based classes knows no bounds). Second, magic and multiple playable races are default assumptions of the system, and spellcasting is available from level 1. Spellcasters don't get that many spells, however, as they rely on metamagic to gain versatility, not massive spell lists. Martial classes are designed with ranged combat focused switch hitting in mind. Realism is not an aim of this system. It may be a technology and social era that looks like the 1960s, but we have elves, wizards, and dragons, so if the martial wants to dual wield pistols and actually hit the target I'm not pulling the realism card to stop them. The best way to envision what martial classes are like would be to compare them to resourced based Pathfinder martials (those who use Ki, Grit, Panache, and the like), though a lot of feat chains are consolidated into single feats.
One big thing is that higher levels of social and technological development do not lend themselves to traditional adventuring. Monster slaying, demon hunting, and rogue mage control are things the government has people for, and vigilantism is viewed as a threat to the state and it's citizens. In my opinion, the best solution to this is to let the players be those government people who handle these threats. So, any time there is a vampire stalking the red light district or a werewolf tearing up campers, the players get the call. Since they are relatively skilled professionals, superiors assume they can figure out how to handle issues themselves without micromanagement, so the players get a fair amount of leeway in the field and can decide how they want to accomplish their missions (unless they start blatantly crossing lines).
Basics aside, let's get into the system itself. This is a work in progress, and I am a busy college student, so this is going to be constructed piece by piece. It could take a while between updates, depending on my school workload, so my activity will rise and drop very eclectically. I have a Google Doc so that information can be edited as needed, and I'll post here whenever I make non-grammatical edits. I do, of course, eagerly seek feedback, and once the skeleton of the system is complete there will be PbP playtesting. No idea how long that will take, but it won't be soon. As I said, college student. To make the system faster to write, explain, and learn, it is written in relation to Pathfinder, assuming that the reader is already familiar with that game and highlighting what aspects of Kelseyfinder differ from Pathfinder (aside from the fact that it has a different class list and different spell lists, of course) instead of highlighting every rule and system in Kelseyfinder in depth. This is so that you don't have to read a whole new rulebook to understand how it works.
Here is the Google Drive folder for all documents. Each rule facet has it's own document.
The first thing to handle is ability scores. I'm going with the classic D&D layout, except Charisma is now Presence, so as to give a better impression of what it actually measures in Kelseyfinder. As you can see, ability scores all start at 12 during character creation, and can't go below 1 (playable races lack ability score adjustments). This is because people like the PCs have to be at least competent in all six areas, because if they are weak in one they lack qualities they need to do their jobs correctly. Professional monster hunters can't be weak, clumsy, out of shape, dumb, airheaded, or timid. Since I hate the idea of forcing players to buy certain options, I'm starting them off at what I feel the minimum stat for them should be.
Here is the Google Doc.
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been on this for quite a while, glad to see it come to fruition.
Skills are likewise handled a bit differently from Pathfinder. The minimum skill points for a class is 4 per level, and martials tend to have a higher number and spellcasters a lower number, barring spellcasters specifically intended to be skill monkies. I decided I want players to have knowledge and profession type skills, or maybe pick up a craft (note that the only magic item crafting players can do is consumables or class feature based) or perform skill for flavor, so I charge half price for these skills. I decided to completely do away with the idea of class skills and just have players buy what they want and always get the +3 bonus for being trained. Perception and Stealth have been removed as skills. This is because anybody trained in combat needs to have their eyes open and head on a swivel at all times and be able to notice threats. No exceptions. Since it is so vital, players shouldn't have to buy it. It is handled by a Wisdom check in a manner similar to Initiative. Stealth is removed as a skill both to be balanced with Perception and because a trained monster hunter should know how to be lightfooted and stay down. It is handled like Initiative and Perception, but governed by Dexterity. Acrobatics/Climb/Swim are gone, too, split into Strength (Jump, Vault, Climb) Dexterity (Tumble, Balance) and Constitution (Swim) checks. Another thing monster hunters just know how to do. New knowledge skills have been created, and Search is returning as a skill, since thoroughly ransacking something top to bottom is different from keeping an eye out for traps and ambushes or noticing random clues.
Here is the Google Doc.
been on this for quite a while, glad to see it come to fruition.
Thanks. I've been considering the idea of splitting from Pathfinder instead of house ruling for a while, but it's the Occult Adventures playtest that really inspired me to do it. The document has so much useful stuff I could use, and I'm pretty convinced now that a derivative system will be easier to handle than house ruling, even if it takes a bit more time.
Consider adding rituals. My system allows The rite of passage, which would touch off sorcery skills, ect.
Also, with the low magic item availability, have them get ability score boosts or hit/damage boosts by level. There are several house rule topics around here. I'll bump some topics.
Consider adding rituals. My system allows The rite of passage, which would touch off sorcery skills, ect.
Also, with the low magic item availability, have them get ability score boosts or hit/damage boosts by level. There are several house rule topics around here. I'll bump some topics.
Ability score boosts are gained every even level, and hit/damage is being factored into class and monster design. I'll think on rituals.
DEA special forces. Kill the drug cartel members and take their stuff.
Or you could play hunters, who are like rangers, with guns instead of spells. In Supernatural the spellcasters were called Men of Letters.
A few quick notes before I go to bed. I'll elaborate tomorrow.
Kelseyfinder has a flaw system, which will probably be mandatory. This is because of the whole "all ability scores are positive" thing. Characters need to have some sort of flaw, because flaws make people interesting. Perfect people aren't fun. Not sure whether to use a trait system or use vices a la WOD. Thinking on it. Kind of leaning towards vice.
Kelseyfinder uses a setting where magic has always been around, as have elves and the like. It does not take place on Earth. It is more "Pathfinder with a different magic system after a technology upgrade" than it is "D20 Modern Pathfinderized" in terms of setting tropes. The magic level is a middle ground between standard Pathfinder and low magic. I think moderate magic may be a good descriptor.
Kelseyfinder assumes the PCs are familiar in the use of most small arms and do carry guns, don't carry non-consumable magic items, and have at least one spellcaster. Breaking these assumptions can easily cause problems.
I'll respond to the question of looting tomorrow. Short answer is that it isn't proper for government agents, and the system assumes a lack of magic loot, not an abundance.
Quick off the cuff idea before I sleep: what if the Virtue/Vice list from World of Darkness was Kelseyfinder's alignment system? Every character gets one of each.
I might subtract 11 from stats, so that 12 is 1, and modifier goes up at odd numbers. Mechanically the same, but since stats below 1 are something only the GM sees it removes the impression that PCs are uber good at everything by starting them out at the lowest visible number.
Bigger update in a couple days when school finals drop off, but here's a quick overlook of a new stat system:
Steadyness - Both how strong your muscles are and how good your motor control is. The lower it is, the weaker and shakier you are. Governs attack rolls and acrobatics.
Reflexes - Governs how good your instincts are and how quickly you can react to situations. Governs defense, reflex saves, and initiative.
Constitution - Physical endurance. Governs fortitude saves and damage threshold.
Intelligence - How much you know. Governs knowledge, skills, how many spells you can know.
Presence - Self confidence, assertiveness, drive. Governs social rolls, will saves, and spell power.
Wisdom - Ability to think abstractly, knowledge of surroundings, and control of impulses. Governs perception, analysis of clues, spell speed and accuracy, and concentration.
When firearms are concerned, reflex to defense represents the ability to duck behind cover. If you haven't exposed yourself in the last round (fired weapon or cast spell at opponent, moved at least five feet) you become really hard to hit. Some cover can be shot through, which provides some defense but not as much as more solid cover. If you don't have cover, you don't get reflex to defense unless the person shooting at you is on the receiving end of suppressing fire. Classes have defense bonuses, which are added to reflex bonus and are lost or reduced whenever reflex bonus is lost or reduced. Damage threshold represents how damage works. Hitting the target is somewhat harder in Kelseyfinder, but all hits draw from the Paizo Critical Hit Deck. The effect listed on the card only happens if damage done is equal to or higher than your damage threshold. If it is lower, you have a flesh wound. -1 to fortitude saves for each flesh wound. You are taken out of action when you have more injuries than Con or when you have a crippling injury, and death comes from not having those injuries treated or getting a catastrophic critical (PCs don't get those, because getting killed early on by a bullet between the eyes sucks in a system that has no method of resurrecting dead characters.). Spells don't have a consistent casting time or DC and throwing a fireball comes with a chance of missing the target altogether. There are limits on how many spells a character can know, but they aren't gigantically restrictive. On the other hand, they are better in combat than Pathfinder Wizards, because even a Wizard has drilled with a rifle, though she won't come close to matching what a Fighter could do, given that Fighters are not nonmagical mundanes. In essence, a Kelseyfinder Wizard is like a Pathfinder Magus without Spell Combat or Spell Strike and more versatility in spell selection. The 1/2 BAB full caster is not really a thing in this game. Combat maneuvers will be easier, because grappling, tripping, disarming, and the likel are all big parts of unarmed and knife fighting.
Something noticeable is that spellcasters are MAD. This both goes into the fact that stats are on the higher end and the fact that becoming a Wizard and controlling magic in hard, and requires mastery of a lot of different things. They have plenty of temporary stat buffs then can spend an arcane pool thingy on, so in a fight they can boost flagging stats, and your arcane pool can go into the negatives if you really need to, but it burns you out. When in he negative with arcane pool, you get to roll against when casting spells, and a bad roll means a critical card is drawn to see how badly your spell just blew up in your face. Going into the negatives is meant to be rare, not commonplace. Arcane pool can buff spells per day as well as stats, so if you run out of spells you can keep going, though doing this continually will eventually tire you out so much your control of your magic slips
Also, Fortitude save progressions are higher than Reflex or Will,because of the fact that it gets chipped away at in combat. Fortitude is part of damage threshold calculation, so lowering it has an effect on staying power in combat.
One key mechanic is that arcane magic and alchemy do not mix well. Only witchcraft mixes well with alchemy (witchcraft and arcane magic are different, and divine classes use witchcraft). An arcane spellcaster can drink a potion and gain its effects, but will get very nauseous. Like, "curled up in a ball trying not to vomit" nauseous. On the other hand, alchemy can be practiced by non-spellcasters, including Fighters. Just need to know what herbs are magical and spend some physical energy. Spell level for Fighter potions is pretty limited, though.
The issue with alchemy is that it works so different from arcane magic that it reacts badly to large amounts of it flowing through someone's body. Only spellcasters have large enough amounts, so being buffed by a wizard and then drinking a potion won't take out a Fighter.
Arcane casters aren't the only ones who get violently ill from ingesting alchemical things. Most people do. Same with getting a buff cast on them. The PCs are recruited for special service partially because they belong to the small fraction of the population that has a genetic immunity from getting sick from drinking potions (unless they are an arcane caster, who is valuable for other reasons) or getting sick from buff spells (if you can cast arcane magic, the magic in your veins prevents any arcane or witchcraft buffs from making you sick [Witchcraft and arcane magic get along fine. Witches use alchemy all the time, but it isn't how they cast spells.]). It should be noted that regular people have a more dangerous version of illness from alchemy than arcane spellcasters. This is because regular people get sick from magic exposure (which arcane casters are immune to thanks to magic in their veins and other PCs are immune to thanks to genetics), while arcane casters get sick from the side effects of mixing concentrated alchemical magics with concentrated arcane magic. An arcane spellcaster gets cripplingly ill, but will get over it in a matter of hours. A regular person may well die. That doesn't stop regular civilians from learning and practicing alchemy, they just can't drink their potions. So, industrial alchemy is common and heavily used in this world, but you generally can't buy potions. The ability to control arcane magic is genetic and rare, and learning witchcraft requires the standard PC immunity to magical side effects, so neither type of spellcaster is common.
I might subtract 11 from stats, so that 12 is 1, and modifier goes up at odd numbers. Mechanically the same, but since stats below 1 are something only the GM sees it removes the impression that PCs are uber good at everything by starting them out at the lowest visible number.How are you planning on handling stat damage/drain, specifically the threshold for incapacitation/death? Would that be at -11 (or possibly -10 just to make it an even number)?
Most likely.
The rest sounds very interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing the details.
Thanks. I have three papers to write in the next few days and finals week is next week, but then I have three weeks off to work on details. Probably start by blocking out some classes. I do have some basic paradigms.
Witches are your old style casters. who understand and tap into the threads of power that make up the world. They've been around as long as can be remembered, and are steeped in tradition. They are pretty good at support magic, enchantment, charm, and transfiguration, can use hexes to mess with the enemy, and are pretty good at alchemy.
Wizards are a much newer kind of caster, wielding the power of the now-departed gods. They have the power of creation and destruction, can use magic to modify weapons in the heat of battle, and can use an arcane pool to buff up their stats or increase the number of spells they can cast. They cannot, however, benefit from most potions.
Both witches and wizards are roughly equivalent to 3/4 BAB spellcasters in Pathfinder. With everybody packing semi and fully automatic firearms, a spellcaster can't rely on a meatshield to absorb most of the damage.
Martial types are better shots than spellcasters, have some sort of out of combat specialty (After PT and weapons training is done, a Fighter is reading up on various types of monsters and how to fight them (Always know your enemy.), a Rogue is practicing sneaky stuff, Briars are studying wilderness skills or acting as stewards of nature, and the spellcasters are practicing magic), all have some form of combat ability keyed off of their specialty (Fighters can do precision damage based on knowing exactly what they are fighting, Rogues can move so fast it looks like they didn't move at all for a few precious seconds, Briars have a primal connection to the world that makes them fearsome in battle and Mother Nature sometimes repays them for their help in her own fickle way), can perform combat maneuver chains in melee (as in, trip and then grapple), and can get minor magic (dabble in alchemy or witchcraft, have the wizard gene but only know a few things, become a werewolf or twinblood [To become a vampire, one has to do really evil things. So, when vampires create spawn [usually by accident], those spawn are not vampires, but a living person that has fangs, needs some blood but still needs normal food, and has a portion of vampiric power.]).
I'll probably start with just the Fighter, Rogue, Briar, Witch, and Wizard, and add more classes later on. Eventually, Witch and Wizard will be class categories instead of single classes, but one step at a time.
Most classes have an overpower mechanic that is meant to be rarely used. Wizards can go into negative arcane pool but rapidly start losing control of their magic, Witches have powerful Curses that hurt them as well, Fighters can ignore crippling injuries but fly into a near-blind rage, and Rogues can greatly amplify what magic they have but will slip into a mental breakdown. Briars, however, lack such a mechanic. Instead, nature itself occasionally decides to get involved, and we all know what happens when nature gets worked up. Thing is, Briars don't know when, why, or how she will intervene.
Look at my Savage mage, and please consider the related tables for Wizards losing control of their magic.
*Wakes thread up from overly long slumber*
Okay, so I've been preoccupied for, like, forever, but I think I have the gist of the system down. Kind of. I have the alpha version of the first martial class up, but before you look at that, these notes on differences between Kelseyfinder and Pathfinder are important to read:
Now for the Spellslinger class:
I don't know if it'll let you access my hotlinks, so here are links to the spell list:
and boost list:
As can be clearly seen, the Spellslinger is a ranged-focused Barbarian type class with prepared spellcasting and a bit of Magus mixed in. It should appear to be more powerful than a Bloodrager or Barbarian is, as Kelseyfinder classes up the power compared to Pathfinder classes to compensate for the fact that most Wondrous Items and most armor and weapon enchantments aren't available in the Kelseyfinder system. You still get the necessary enhancement bonuses and ability score increases, thanks to Pathfinder Unchained's Automatic Bonus Progression, but not the various magical abilities.
Kelseyfinder will have twelve base classes at first. I am not ruling out adding more later on. The classes are:
Full BAB
Spellslinger
-Hexslinger
Beastheart - Shapeshifters Only
- Mutant (Beastheart archetype for non-shapeshifters)
Rune Warrior
-Sentinel
Commando
-Forester
Medium BAB
Rogue
-Investigator
Technomancer
-Bard
*Shaman
*Alchemist
Low BAB
*Witch
*Runemage (Uses the Arcanist class. Uses power of runic inscription to bind innate sorcery into a more controllable form.)
*Wizard
*Sorcerer
- denotes a planned archetype for the above class. * denotes that I want to maintain backward capability with Paizo archetypes for a given class if at all possible.
Beasthearts are shapeshifters (werewolves, werejaguars, hengeyokai, kitsune, and so on) who tap deep into their own magical potential to cast spells and unlock combat powers. Mutants are nonshapeshifters who can do similar stuff through imbibing mutagens. Martial alchemist, basically. Rune warriors are kinda like Paladins, but without the focus on Good (Kelseyfinder doesn't even have alignment). Technomancers use arcane magic and like technology.
On second though, I might need to dial that class down a bit in the morning. Six rage powers might be pushing it.
The first thing to handle is ability scores
The first thing to handle is decide how many 1. level warriors with guns it takes to kill an average 10th level character. That's something you want to decide, not something that should emerge randomly from shuffling around some ability scores.
The first thing to handle is ability scoresThe first thing to handle is decide how many 1. level warriors with guns it takes to kill an average 10th level character. That's something you want to decide, not something that should emerge randomly from shuffling around some ability scores.
A more important question, can your mutants choose Weaponizer, and be the gun?
Go to Leveled Mutations.
What would Pathfinder: Modern look like?
If you need to play a modern game, just play SpyCraft.
It's the d20 System, it's almost identical to PF, and all the changes you'd need to make for PF to feel right in a modern setting are already there for you.
If you need to include Fantasy elements into it, combine it with FantasyCraft.
The first thing to handle is ability scoresThe first thing to handle is decide how many 1. level warriors with guns it takes to kill an average 10th level character. That's something you want to decide, not something that should emerge randomly from shuffling around some ability scores.
I may well retcon that ability score system out. I haven't really thought about it much. I'll likely go with just 10 as starting scores, as normal.
A 10th level character should eat 1st level warriors for breakfast anime-style. Especially with the use of wards. Wards are how the class defense bonuses function. It is a magical shield, except it isn't up all the time (that would consume far too much energy to maintain). It flashes up when enemy fire is incoming and covers just enough skin to stop the attack. Sometimes it fails to activate fast enough to stop the attack, or activates but gets penetrated, especially if the shooter is able to magically enhance bullets (something any medium level martial can do at will). Higher level characters can create more effective wards, and combat casters like full BAB classes are better at it than low BAB casters. Since wards can stop bullets, even at close range, a higher character with better wards is going to be very difficult for lower level characters without magical ammunition. 1st level warriors likely can't even scratch a 10th level Spellslinger, even if they shoot him in the face at close range.
The first thing to handle is ability scoresThe first thing to handle is decide how many 1. level warriors with guns it takes to kill an average 10th level character. That's something you want to decide, not something that should emerge randomly from shuffling around some ability scores.A more important question, can your mutants choose Weaponizer, and be the gun?
Go to Leveled Mutations.
I'll have to consider it when I write up the mutant archetype.
What would Pathfinder: Modern look like?
If you need to play a modern game, just play SpyCraft.
It's the d20 System, it's almost identical to PF, and all the changes you'd need to make for PF to feel right in a modern setting are already there for you.
If you need to include Fantasy elements into it, combine it with FantasyCraft.
Wouldn't really work for me. I'm using Pathfinder because it's well known and the rules are easily available, and I already own said rules. Plus, Pathfinder is particularly good at handling powerful spellcasters, which Kelseyfinder focuses on pretty much exclusively. That's why even the full BAB classes are all spellcasters (though I am tweaking down the power of the Spellslinger alpha a bit). In an all spellcaster game where characters are meant to be pretty powerful, the Pathfinder system should prove especially well suited. I also don't want to buy a new game right now.
What I'm working on right now is creating a visual style to build the rest of the themed classes around. I should have something more to share here within a day or two.