Do alternate classes count as their parent classes for archetypes and prerequisites?


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Question: Do alternate classes count as their parent classes for archetypes and prerequisites?

In most cases it doesn't matter because there are few if any feats with specific prerequisites that you have levels in cavalier, paladin, or rogue, and most alternate classes are different enough from their parent classes that archetypes don't stack with them anyway. But there are a few rogue archetypes that could be applied to a ninja, there's equipment that cares about specific classes, and honestly it's just an interesting question to know the answer to. I always assumed they did count as their parent classes, but then is the reverse true? Could samurai archetypes be taken by cavaliers, etc.? Ultimate Combat's rules for alternate classes are silent on this issue.

Liberty's Edge

I believe that they do not more so because archetypes generally have the requirement that an existing class feature is replaced by a class feature of the archetype.

In all the cases I have run across, the alternate classes do not have all of the class features that need to be 'traded out'...so they usually do not qualify for the archetype anyway.

Shadow Lodge

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Alternate Classes

Sometimes an archetype exchanges so many class features that it almost becomes a new class itself. In such cases, the class might warrant a representation of all of the class features, even those that it shares with its base class. While still technically an archetype, characters who play this class have all the tools they need to advance their character in one convenient location. The antipaladin, ninja, and samurai are all examples of an alternate class.

Alternate classes are archetypes, just very comprehensive ones.

As such a ninja X counts as a rogue X for prerequisites, and a ninja can take rogue archetypes that only replace features the ninja has.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yup.


Note that Samurai has a total of one usable Cavalier archetype while Antipaladin doesn't actually have any of the class features of a Paladin (just very similar ones) and will NEVER be compatible with a Paladin archetype (unless it only touches weapons and armor prof or explicitly allows Antipaladins)


Weirdo wrote:
Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Alternate Classes

Sometimes an archetype exchanges so many class features that it almost becomes a new class itself. In such cases, the class might warrant a representation of all of the class features, even those that it shares with its base class. While still technically an archetype, characters who play this class have all the tools they need to advance their character in one convenient location. The antipaladin, ninja, and samurai are all examples of an alternate class.

Alternate classes are archetypes, just very comprehensive ones.

As such a ninja X counts as a rogue X for prerequisites, and a ninja can take rogue archetypes that only replace features the ninja has.

/thread

Dark Archive

Cool. Thanks. I didn't think to check the ACG since it doesn't actually include any alternate classes. I just looked in the APG and Ultimate Combat.

Dark Archive

Where in the ACG does it actually say that, by the way? I can't find it anywhere. I believe you, and it's how I've always treated things, but I need to get citation to make a bug report to Hero Lab.

Dark Archive

deuxhero wrote:
Note that Samurai has a total of one usable Cavalier archetype while Antipaladin doesn't actually have any of the class features of a Paladin (just very similar ones) and will NEVER be compatible with a Paladin archetype (unless it only touches weapons and armor prof or explicitly allows Antipaladins)

I am playing a PbP game where the DM okay'd me playing a Dwarven Stonelord Antipaladin. It's pretty much strictly weaker than its Paladin equivalent (not being able to LoH Fatigue away suuuuuuucks) but it's super fun so far.

I pretty much just replaced the equivalent abilities, but it's very specifically an exception the DM allowed, instead of something that the rules allow.

Benn Roe wrote:
Where in the ACG does it actually say that, by the way? I can't find it anywhere. I believe you, and it's how I've always treated things, but I need to get citation to make a bug report to Hero Lab.

Are you trying to take a parent class' archetype on a hybrid class? Because that you absolutely cannot do. The hybrids are made of a combination of the parent classes, but do not count as their parent classes for any reason unless it specifically say so in this abilities (like how a Warpriest can use his Warpriest level as Fighter levels/BAB for his bonus feats, or how a Brawler can use his Brawler level as his Monk level for Unarmed Strike damage).

Spoiler:
So, no, you can't be an Invulnerable Rager Bloodrager. :P

Dark Archive

Seranov wrote:
Are you trying to take a parent class' archetype on a hybrid class? Because that you absolutely cannot do. The hybrids are made of a combination of the parent classes, but do not count as their parent classes for any reason unless it specifically say so in this abilities (like how a Warpriest can use his Warpriest level as Fighter levels/BAB for his bonus feats, or how a Brawler can use his Brawler level as his Monk level for Unarmed Strike damage).

No, I'm not. I'm actually not trying to do anything with this except improve Hero Lab. Right now in Hero Lab ninjas don't count as rogues for feat prerequisites, samurai don't count as cavaliers, and antipaladins don't count as paladins. I thought that was wrong so I asked here in order to get citation to put in a bug report. I didn't even think to check the ACG because I know hybrid classes aren't alternate classes, but someone upthread quoted a passage from the ACG that says alternate classes are just a detailed type of archetype, and I'm trying to find the page number of that quote to include with my bug report.

Dark Archive

Ah, gotcha.

Yeah, I've definitely read somewhere that alternate classes are pretty much fancy archetypes, but I can't recall where.

Grand Lodge

Benn Roe wrote:
Where in the ACG does it actually say that, by the way? I can't find it anywhere. I believe you, and it's how I've always treated things, but I need to get citation to make a bug report to Hero Lab.

Page 249. It's under the section talking about making your own archetype.

Dark Archive

Perfect! Thanks!

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