Best Class / Build to Focus on a Tengu's Strengths and Natural Attacks?


Advice


I had a player in one of my games inquire about the viability of a Tengu based martial character, and I'll be honest I hadn't given it too much thought before.

The idea is to be some sort of front line martial who focuses on the Tengu's great natural attack routine.

Things I had in mind, both pros and cons.

- This is an E6 campaign, so the early blossoming of natural attack builds will be a great asset
- Expensive or tricky to overcome DR of all shapes and sizes
- Tengu stats are a little wonky for a martial

Any one have any insights or experience with a tengu martial? I'm trying to find a build that will deal heavy damage and keep up with DR.

Some of my initial ideas were Slayer/Paladin/Cavalier/Warpriest for their various "+X damage per hit" class buffs, but most of these classes will have an issue qualifying for Arcane Strike or making their attacks magic without help from items.

Arcane Strike seems like a feat worth picking up since it affects all your weapons, scales well, and allows you to easily bypass DR/Magic, opening up your amulet slot or allowing you to start your amulet off with energy damage or something.

Using potions of Greater Magic Fang at a high caster level and recycling them (alchemical allocation or something similar) is out of the question because of E6 boundaries.

Any help would be appreciated. This is a "mechanics down" idea, so whatever class/build/feat/whatever that has synergy with natural weapons that you can think of, the better.

Thanks.

Grand Lodge

Hunter

LEAD BLADES SPELL is great for any martial, and Hunter is only 1 of 3 classes that have access to it.

It is also Wis based for casting.

Animal Companion for flank, or, if having the companion is outta the question, giving yourself a constant +2 to DEX is great.

Can also switch hit by taking Precise Shot instead of Outflank. Even better option if you are not bringing your pet, as it is unlikely anyone else will have outflank (unless there are lots of caviliers or melee inquisitors.)


Well, you can work with arcane strike. You can qualify for it using an SLA, so you just need to grab a trait based SLA.

The problem with trait based SLAs is that they usually do not scale with level, but with highest caster level obtained. For Slayers or cavaliers, that would mean that their caster level would not scale, and thus arcane strike wouldn't scale.

But warpriest, they are casters in their own right. Paladins and rangers are too....but that is at level 4 (so the caster level would not be much in an E6). Inquisitors also work rather well as well (I might suggest them over warpriest, since sacred weapon only works on weapons you have weapon focus in, and you only get 1 free weapon focus while you have both claws and a beak; it also requires several swift actions to cover all of them; I might not understand warpriests though, so grain of salt)

Anyway, if you are going to grab arcane strike, then Riving Strike is also great. It is basically a 1 turn evil eye hex- it causes anything hit with arcane strike to take a -2 to saves against spells. So you can keep being useful, even if you are hitting for only 1 damage.

EDIT: Oh, and I mentioned that most traits do not provide SLAs that scale with level? Well, Light-Bringer, a Sarenrae religion trait, is an exception. Feel free to throw it on a slayer or something.


Things that add damage to attacks benefit a lot from multiple natural attacks. A Tengu with the claws racial trait has three natural attacks from level 1. A full attack lets him use them at full BAB. Here are some ways of adding damage:

Sneak attack from Rogue, Ninja, Vivisectionist Alchemist, or Slayer.

Favored target from Slayer

Studied attack from Investigator

Favored enemy from Ranger.

Smite from Paladin

I would commonly suggest Ranger because of the Instant Enemy spell but in E6 you won't get it, I don't think.

I've seen very effective Tengu Rogues/Ninjas using natural attacks. Lots of rogues use TWF to try to get as many sneak attacks as possible. Unfortunately, the penalty makes it hard to get the hits in. Using natural attacks avoids that and gives you an additional attack bite attack too.

Tengu with the claws also qualify for feats as if they had IUS, so you can take style feats like Snake Style or Pummeling style which may be helpful as well. You'd need to take Feral Combat training to make the most effective use of them, however.

Vivisectionist alchemist will have the benefit of being able to self-buff with mutagens and extracts. It can be extremely effective.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Tengu can combine the amazing Scout Archetype with the Tengu Swordmaster Archetype to create a sweet Natural Attacking Rogue.

With the tiger Trance if you can beat their CMD with a CMB check you can charge, full attack, and get sneak attacks on all attacks without need for flanking or Bluffing.


I was looking at the Tengu's Swordmaster rogue archetype. That's a pretty cool looking option too. At least I think so. Especially when they start levelling up a bit and getting that sword trance ability.

They're a bit deficient with CON. But I think the Swordtrained racial treat and the Tengu's DEX bonus would make things interesting if you want to play a dexterity-based fighter, ranger, slayer or rogue. Especially since it gives Tengu proficiency in pretty well anything you could call a blade. That would benefit even a fighter, with the cool exotic swords out there.

Between Swordtrained, their good DEX and natural Beak attack, they should get pretty decent in combat if they have the Weapon Finesse feat too.

And since Tengu are supposed to make excellent rogues and rangers because of their good DEX and WIS, wouldn't they make pretty very capable Slayers too?

Liberty's Edge

I had a natural attacking Rogue Tengu for PFS, who only made it to his 6th session. I thought it would be a great damage dealing build, but not wanting to bully other players into doing what I wanted, I merely asked players at the start of the session to remember that I am a rogue, and to flank with me whenever possible. Not once, in 6 sessions did anyone move into flanking position so I could full attack with sneak attack. I even had a couple players start in flank position then 5 foot away after their attack, when I was the next PC to act.

That being said I still think a dex based Vivisectionist alchemist would be a strong build. With an agile amulet of mighty fists and piranha strike, you could easily be doing +10 damage on attacks without the 3d6 sneak attack. Most things in E6 should only have DR 5/, so you could just focus on trying to punch through with enough damage. Heck, with flanking and your mutagen used, 22 should be your average damage on all 3 attacks, even with DR 10/, you could be doing 36 damage a round easily.


lemeres wrote:

Well, you can work with arcane strike. You can qualify for it using an SLA, so you just need to grab a trait based SLA.

The problem with trait based SLAs is that they usually do not scale with level, but with highest caster level obtained. For Slayers or cavaliers, that would mean that their caster level would not scale, and thus arcane strike wouldn't scale.

This isn't true. The precedent is set on CRB page 23 with the gnome's SLAs. "The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level." The APG racial traits that give elves and gnomes (again) SLAs have similar verbage. If Paizo ever stopped putting this in it's not because newer racial traits don't have caster level. An SLA without caster level is a contradiction under the rules. It's because they decided it was bloody obvious that the caster level followed the precedent set in the CRB and APG.


Deighton Thrane wrote:

I had a natural attacking Rogue Tengu for PFS, who only made it to his 6th session. I thought it would be a great damage dealing build, but not wanting to bully other players into doing what I wanted, I merely asked players at the start of the session to remember that I am a rogue, and to flank with me whenever possible. Not once, in 6 sessions did anyone move into flanking position so I could full attack with sneak attack. I even had a couple players start in flank position then 5 foot away after their attack, when I was the next PC to act.

That being said I still think a dex based Vivisectionist alchemist would be a strong build. With an agile amulet of mighty fists and piranha strike, you could easily be doing +10 damage on attacks without the 3d6 sneak attack. Most things in E6 should only have DR 5/, so you could just focus on trying to punch through with enough damage. Heck, with flanking and your mutagen used, 22 should be your average damage on all 3 attacks, even with DR 10/, you could be doing 36 damage a round easily.

That's weird. The campaign I'm in, we always strive to flank. We've got a couple of rogues who can really kick you-know-what with their sneak attacks. Can't understand why they'd pull out like that and ensure the (ARMED!) opposition survive that much longer.


Atarlost wrote:
lemeres wrote:

Well, you can work with arcane strike. You can qualify for it using an SLA, so you just need to grab a trait based SLA.

The problem with trait based SLAs is that they usually do not scale with level, but with highest caster level obtained. For Slayers or cavaliers, that would mean that their caster level would not scale, and thus arcane strike wouldn't scale.

This isn't true. The precedent is set on CRB page 23 with the gnome's SLAs. "The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level." The APG racial traits that give elves and gnomes (again) SLAs have similar verbage. If Paizo ever stopped putting this in it's not because newer racial traits don't have caster level. An SLA without caster level is a contradiction under the rules. It's because they decided it was bloody obvious that the caster level followed the precedent set in the CRB and APG.

...ok, I am talking about a different kind of traits (Joke: my wizard went up a level after going down a level and then he got a new level to cast). Not the ones from race, but the ones you usually get 2 of at character creation. Those traits, often called 'half feats' are not meant to be quite that good. You can see an explaination of the mechanic after going past the table in the link:here

So they usually have a language that says 'highest caster level obtained, or CL 1'. Here is a prime example with: Magical Talent. Most traits that give an SLA do something similar.

Anyway, racial traits, while they are often a perfectly fine source of SLAs for the reasons you mentioned, are not going to help here, since we are working with a set race (tengu). They do not have any racial spell like ability options as far as I can tell.


Tengu natural attacks seem like they should be really powerful, but they're hard to leverage into a real advantage when they're naturally rather weak and a headache to enchant.

Actually, since Hei-Feng is the patron god of tengu, what about a Hei Feng Sacred Fist who uses Exotic Weapon Training to grab the 9-Ring that he doesn't get as a Sacred Fist? Since 9-Ring is a Monk weapon, you can flurry it with two hands using Power Attack and cleric buffs to stack on some really serious offense. Something like ~

STR 16+
DEX 12/14
CON 14\12
INT 10
WIS 14/16
CHA 8
Traits: Fate's Favored & ?

1. Toughness
3. Power Attack
5...?

With the bonus style feats, you could build towards having something like the full Crane chain or Snake Fang or Pummeling Charge online by level 12; while you want to be full-attacking with your 9-Ring, those all offer different ways to exploit your decent Sacred Fist unarmed strikes for different purposes.

Destruction has a nice minor blessing, and the Soaring Assault Air Blessing at level 10 is just way, way cool for a tengu.


BadBird wrote:
Actually, since Hei-Feng is the patron god of tengu, what about a Hei Feng Sacred Fist who uses Exotic Weapon Training to grab the 9-Ring that he doesn't get as a Sacred Fist? Since 9-Ring is a Monk weapon, you can flurry it with two hands using Power Attack and cleric buffs to stack on some really serious offense. Something like ~

Wait...can't default tengu just pick up a 9-ring sword anyway? Tengu are just plain familiar with all swords and sword like objects (unless they trade out that ability for claws). So they can grab the 9 ring without any difficulty.

Of course, on the other hand, I just realized that tengu warpriests can grab feral combat training by default with their claws (unless I messed up somewhere). Warpriests get weapon focus as a bonus feat, and the alt racial trait that gives claws also says that they "are treated as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats". So that seems to cover all the prerequisites. So by just spending your 1st level feat, you are free to flurry with your claws (not sure if this is a step up or step down for E6 though- well, step down since you only ever get 3 attacks, and those all face penalties).


The Primal Companion Hunter (Hunter Archtype) gains an evolution pool like the one a summoner gets for his eidolon. A Primal Companion Hunter can apply the evolution to himself if he has no animal companion.

So this can be realy good with a race that already has some natural attacks.

For example level 6th (9 Evolution Points):
- Energy Attacks (2ep, all natural attacks deal 1d6 energy damage)
- 2x Ability Increase (4ep, +4 Str)
- Magic Attacks (1ep, treat natural attacks as if they were magic)
- 2x Improved Natural Armor (2ep, + 4 Natural Armor)

This evolutions can be activated as swift action and can be used for a number of minutes per day equal the hunter level.

The selected evolotions completly free the neck slot you do not need the amulet of mighty fists but it sill does not hurt because you get you natural armor bonus from the evolution.

Breiti


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ninja can do the following fairly reasonably:

Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10 (20 pt buy)

Feat 1: Weapon Finesse
Ninja Trick 2: Unarmed Combat Training
Feat 3: Two-Weapon Fighting
Ninja Trick 4: Combat Feat (Piranha Strike)
Feat 5: Open choice
Ninja Trick 6: Vanishing Trick or other. Forgotten Trick can be handy here.

Traits: Dirty Fighter (+1 damage while flanking), Open choice

At level 3, you can spend a Ki point and make 6 attacks in a single round. If you're flanking, assuming no AoMF or buffs, your mods are:

+6/+6/+6/+3/+3/+3
1d3+2d6+1 for all attacks

Your kicks (Unarmed Strikes) will do Bludgeon, the claws will do Bludgeon and Slashing, the bite will do Bludgeon and Piercing and Slashing.


So, here is a character build I'm intending for PFS. Since you are only going up to level 6, I only went up to level 6, too.

1Ranger1: Freebooter archetype, Weapon Focus Bite
2R1Monk1: Master of Many Styles archetype, Snake Style
3R1M2: Evasion, Snake Fang, Combat Reflexes
4R1M2Fighter1: Feral Combat Training, Bite
5R1M3F1: Monastic Legacy, Maneuver Training
6R2M3F1: Improved Natural Weapon

For a Pathfinder Society character, I'd develop the Tengu with Claws, but in 6 levels, there isn't time to do that, so you might as well stick with the bite. With Feral Combat Training, this character's bite attack will do the Monk Unarmed Strike Damage: 1d6 at level 4, 1d8 at level 5. Improved Natural Weapon will let the damage accrue as if the Tengu were 1 size bigger: from 1d8 to 2d6!

Instead of 1 favored enemy, Freebooter Rangers can name any opponent they want as a favored enemy as a Move Action, but they only get a +1. The Choice of 2 levels in Ranger stems from this being a PFS character. PFS characters can only take Improved Natural Weapon via levels in Ranger and Combat Style Specialization.

Level 3 Monks who wear armor lose their Wis Mod to AC and Flurry of Blows. But Masters of Many Styles don't get Flurry anyway, so the wise thing to do is wear armor. Monks who wear heavy armor lose Evasion, so This character will try to acquire a Mithril Agile Breastplate or maybe Mithral Steel Lamellar Armor (which comes with mithral gauntlets). Because this character focuses on Bite Attacks, he can also use a Shield. This is especially useful because the Monk uses Snake Fang. With Snake Fang, every time someone attacks you and misses, you get an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity, and with Feral Combat Training, that attack can be made with those Bite Attacks that will start doing a base of 2d6 damage. If you can make your character's Dexterity 16, Snake Fang may plausibly net you an extra 5 attacks every round!

Your other hand is free to use a Bastard Sword during your regular melee attacks, which Tengu are proficient with as a racial trait, or you might instead make your attack routine Bite/Unarmed Strike, since a monk unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon for the purposes of spells and effects that improve natural weapon, your MUS will just count as a natural weapon, and there will be no penalty.

If I were to favor the Claws instead of the Bite, the character would carry a bow, shooting people as he closed in for the claws, beak, and bashing.

Anyway, that's the way I intend to make my next Tengu martial character.


A demon subdomain cleric or inquisitor is almost unbeatable at low levels and is good for a LONG time after that. Bane,scaling judgement to hit and later damage, scaling domain bonuses to attack and damage from domain. This is a HARD thing to best based off class features alone. Heck you even have wisdom bonus to make these two classes even more appealing.


lemeres wrote:

Wait...can't default tengu just pick up a 9-ring sword anyway?

Of course, on the other hand, I just realized that tengu warpriests can grab feral combat training by default with their claws (unless I messed up somewhere).

Changing to Exotic Weapon Training just means getting to pick a couple other flurry-able exotics.

Speaking of Warpriest and abusing natural weapons... what about taking a deity with Unarmed Strike, applying feral combat training to claws, taking just enough dexterity to grab Two Weapon Fighting I, grabbing Multiattack if allowed, and then going Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite with Divine Favor?

With Sacred Weapon and Brawling Armor, everything but the bite is automatically magic with +2 attack/damage and a scaling damage die... and everything but the bite is valid for Dragon Style / Ferocity (take stunning fist with level 9 bonus feat to qualify for Ferocity.
Even your 'secondary' claws are getting a ton of enhancements and 1xSTR thanks to Dragon Ferocity, and you're free to wear Sacred Armor enchanted with Magic Vestment.

Liberty's Edge

Serisan wrote:

Ninja can do the following fairly reasonably:

Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10 (20 pt buy)

Feat 1: Weapon Finesse
Ninja Trick 2: Unarmed Combat Training
Feat 3: Two-Weapon Fighting
Ninja Trick 4: Combat Feat (Piranha Strike)
Feat 5: Open choice
Ninja Trick 6: Vanishing Trick or other. Forgotten Trick can be handy here.

Traits: Dirty Fighter (+1 damage while flanking), Open choice

At level 3, you can spend a Ki point and make 6 attacks in a single round. If you're flanking, assuming no AoMF or buffs, your mods are:

+6/+6/+6/+3/+3/+3
1d3+2d6+1 for all attacks

Your kicks (Unarmed Strikes) will do Bludgeon, the claws will do Bludgeon and Slashing, the bite will do Bludgeon and Piercing and Slashing.

This looks pretty good, but the ninja's ki pool is based off Cha, not Wis, so it might be a good idea to trade some Wis for Cha. Also, Multiattack would be a good 5th level feat, as striking with your feet turns your natural weapons into secondary attack, and that -5 to attack could be a pain. Also I think that damage should be 1d3+3d6+1 per attack.


Breiti wrote:

The Primal Companion Hunter (Hunter Archtype) gains an evolution pool like the one a summoner gets for his eidolon. A Primal Companion Hunter can apply the evolution to himself if he has no animal companion.

So this can be realy good with a race that already has some natural attacks.

For example level 6th (9 Evolution Points):
- Energy Attacks (2ep, all natural attacks deal 1d6 energy damage)
- 2x Ability Increase (4ep, +4 Str)
- Magic Attacks (1ep, treat natural attacks as if they were magic)
- 2x Improved Natural Armor (2ep, + 4 Natural Armor)

This evolutions can be activated as swift action and can be used for a number of minutes per day equal the hunter level.

The selected evolotions completly free the neck slot you do not need the amulet of mighty fists but it sill does not hurt because you get you natural armor bonus from the evolution.

Breiti

Interesting approach. I suppose since these are primary natural attacks, any increase to strength goes straight to damage on each hit. And compared to most of the choices presented, this has more consistent usage of its damage boosting mechanics (it gets minutes/level, which means 6 minutes at level 6. Since most fights last less than 1 minutes, that means 6 uses per day.)

Another note: You can take the divine hunter archetype with primal companion hunter as well (trades out all the teamwork feats you are not sharing with your dead animal companion). I like grabbing the travel domain through.. whichever gods you can find with travel domain (desna and abadar from the main pantheon). That +10 speed means you can grab medium armors without any problems, and it serves as an actual speed boost once you switch to mithral.


Serisan wrote:

Ninja can do the following fairly reasonably:

Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10 (20 pt buy)

Feat 1: Weapon Finesse
Ninja Trick 2: Unarmed Combat Training
Feat 3: Two-Weapon Fighting
Ninja Trick 4: Combat Feat (Piranha Strike)
Feat 5: Open choice
Ninja Trick 6: Vanishing Trick or other. Forgotten Trick can be handy here.

Traits: Dirty Fighter (+1 damage while flanking), Open choice

At level 3, you can spend a Ki point and make 6 attacks in a single round. If you're flanking, assuming no AoMF or buffs, your mods are:

+6/+6/+6/+3/+3/+3
1d3+2d6+1 for all attacks

Your kicks (Unarmed Strikes) will do Bludgeon, the claws will do Bludgeon and Slashing, the bite will do Bludgeon and Piercing and Slashing.

Either I'm an idiot or this whole thing is filled with mistakes. Why do need unarmed combat training at all? Your claws are treated as having that feat already and you don't need it for anything else. I can't see how you have 6 attacks as the best I can see is a ki attack on top of four natural attacks and that was with traits. Even then your damage is still dependent on flanking and sneak attack. Spell it out because I checked everything listed and there is nothin to confirm the math here.


I think for overall exploitation, the Warpriest Feral Combat Claws approach Iemeres first mentioned has to take the prize if you really work it:

Sacred Weapon: damage dice scale
Dragon Ferocity: +.5x strength to damage
Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike: applies to claws as well
Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike: applies to claws as well
Brawling Armor: +2 stackable attack and damage
Divine Favor (Fate's Favored): +1, +1/4levels attack and damage
Also possibly ~ Destruction Minor Blessing: +1/2levels damage

...and the Warpriest has the feats to actually do it. Since all this stuff trickles down to claws through unarmed strike, you can go and use both if so inclined.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Serisan wrote:


At level 3, you can spend a Ki point and make 6 attacks in a single round. If you're flanking, assuming no AoMF or buffs, your mods are:

+6/+6/+6/+3/+3/+3
1d3+2d6+1 for all attacks

Your kicks (Unarmed Strikes) will do Bludgeon, the claws will do Bludgeon and Slashing, the bite will do Bludgeon and Piercing and Slashing.

Either I'm an idiot or this whole thing is filled with mistakes. Why do need unarmed combat training at all? Your claws are treated as having that feat already and you don't need it for anything else. I can't see how you have 6 attacks as the best I can see is a ki attack on top of four natural attacks and that was with traits. Even then your damage is still dependent on flanking and sneak attack. Spell it out because I checked everything listed and there is nothin to confirm the math here.

Kick/Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deighton Thrane wrote:
Serisan wrote:

Ninja can do the following fairly reasonably:

Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10 (20 pt buy)

Feat 1: Weapon Finesse
Ninja Trick 2: Unarmed Combat Training
Feat 3: Two-Weapon Fighting
Ninja Trick 4: Combat Feat (Piranha Strike)
Feat 5: Open choice
Ninja Trick 6: Vanishing Trick or other. Forgotten Trick can be handy here.

Traits: Dirty Fighter (+1 damage while flanking), Open choice

At level 3, you can spend a Ki point and make 6 attacks in a single round. If you're flanking, assuming no AoMF or buffs, your mods are:

+6/+6/+6/+3/+3/+3
1d3+2d6+1 for all attacks

Your kicks (Unarmed Strikes) will do Bludgeon, the claws will do Bludgeon and Slashing, the bite will do Bludgeon and Piercing and Slashing.

This looks pretty good, but the ninja's ki pool is based off Cha, not Wis, so it might be a good idea to trade some Wis for Cha. Also, Multiattack would be a good 5th level feat, as striking with your feet turns your natural weapons into secondary attack, and that -5 to attack could be a pain. Also I think that damage should be 1d3+3d6+1 per attack.

You're definitely correct about the ki pool and that's easily adjusted. The damage numbers I put up are specifically for level 3. Yes, it will be 1d3+3d6+1 at level 6. If you Piranha Strike at level 6, you'd be looking at 1d3+3d6+5 at the cost of -2 on each attack.


Serisan wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Serisan wrote:


At level 3, you can spend a Ki point and make 6 attacks in a single round. If you're flanking, assuming no AoMF or buffs, your mods are:

+6/+6/+6/+3/+3/+3
1d3+2d6+1 for all attacks

Your kicks (Unarmed Strikes) will do Bludgeon, the claws will do Bludgeon and Slashing, the bite will do Bludgeon and Piercing and Slashing.

Either I'm an idiot or this whole thing is filled with mistakes. Why do need unarmed combat training at all? Your claws are treated as having that feat already and you don't need it for anything else. I can't see how you have 6 attacks as the best I can see is a ki attack on top of four natural attacks and that was with traits. Even then your damage is still dependent on flanking and sneak attack. Spell it out because I checked everything listed and there is nothin to confirm the math here.

Kick/Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite

assuming your correct and your adding kicks then forget the darn ninja and get a cleric with a dip of ninja for 1D6 ninja cheese. Because If your getting six attacks then let me take demon and ferocity with wisdom 16. without buffs at level 4 for ill add 6 damage per attack, have better chance to hit, and higher damage with strength instead over dex. I mean seriously 6 attacks at minimum boost of +1 to hit and damage on top of save boost as a swift action is VASTLY superior to sneak damage potential.

conversely, it if your very patient you could take rage subdomain and then you gain a gore attack and barbarians rage ability to make your attacks even more ridiculous.

In theory sneak attack is more powerful than the domains as it relates to damage but frankly that isn't the case for a few reasons. A) demon and other class features add chance to hit so you will hit more than a ninja will. I mean you get +10 to every attack at level 20 folks and that's almost 15 levels for mister ninja. B) Sneak attack is situational at best whereas cleric features can be used in any situation. C) Unless the average dice roll is 2.5 or higher for you, you didn't gain more damage from sneak attack than you would clerics domains.

upon reflection, go with a barbarian. your favored class bonus is worth a reduced DPR just because your health is 50% more, full BAB superstition rage power is on roids, and DR/-


Deighton Thrane wrote:
Serisan wrote:

Ninja can do the following fairly reasonably:

Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10 (20 pt buy)

Feat 1: Weapon Finesse
Ninja Trick 2: Unarmed Combat Training
Feat 3: Two-Weapon Fighting
Ninja Trick 4: Combat Feat (Piranha Strike)
Feat 5: Open choice
Ninja Trick 6: Vanishing Trick or other. Forgotten Trick can be handy here.

Traits: Dirty Fighter (+1 damage while flanking), Open choice

At level 3, you can spend a Ki point and make 6 attacks in a single round. If you're flanking, assuming no AoMF or buffs, your mods are:

+6/+6/+6/+3/+3/+3
1d3+2d6+1 for all attacks

Your kicks (Unarmed Strikes) will do Bludgeon, the claws will do Bludgeon and Slashing, the bite will do Bludgeon and Piercing and Slashing.

This looks pretty good, but the ninja's ki pool is based off Cha, not Wis, so it might be a good idea to trade some Wis for Cha. Also, Multiattack would be a good 5th level feat, as striking with your feet turns your natural weapons into secondary attack, and that -5 to attack could be a pain. Also I think that damage should be 1d3+3d6+1 per attack.

How do you lock in the Sneak Attack Damage, with the Vanishing Trick? Do you get the Sneak Attack Damage for every strike in your Full Attack action, or just the first attack? And you know, with the Ninja Ki Pool being Charisma-based, ninjas are good candidates for Shatter Defenses. A minor point, since the OP's level cap is 6, and Shatter Defenses requires a BAB of +6, and that doesn't happen for Ninjas until level 8. Still, interesting.

If your Ninja took a Level in Monk, the Unarmed Strikes would do more damage, and they would not impose a -5 on the claws and bite because a Monk Unarmed Strike counts a Natural Weapon for spells and effects that enhance or improve Natural Weapons.


If your playing with 3rd party stuff I would suggest the Cryptic from the
Psionics Expanded - Advanced psionics Guide by dreamscarred press. [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home] is a great way to at least browse the class.
I have a ratfolk one and he is pretty cool...though he does seem to take some buff time to get up to full power.


This thread is only 2 weeks old so I hope this isn't necro:

Several of you list brawling armor, but doesn't brawling armor explicitly not apply to natural weapons like claws/beak? I'm confused as to how this is useful...Or is it only applying to the kick for your multi-attack types?

Thanks,

EDIT:

Actually, the more I look at the specifics of some recommendations here, the more confused I am at what is put forward.

Iemeres points out that Sacred Weapon only works on weapons which you have Weapon Focus for, and you only get 1 free Weapon Focus as a Warpriest. Iemeres also points out that it takes several Swift actions to cover all of a Tengu's natural weapons with the 4th level Divine Power capability...But the real knock here is that a Warpriest can only use Sacred Weapon for a number of rounds/day equal to their level. You really don't want to divide that between multiple weapons.

I am puzzled whether this is imbuing the weapon with a specific bonus called "Divine Power" or actually the spell "Divine Power," but I bet it is the former, because the latter would be quite out of reach for a 4th-level caster, and not only adds +1 to hit, but also various other strength benefits. Also, the spell in question is cast on individuals, not weapons, and would affect all of their attacks...So I really think it must be read as a specific bonus (not the spell, despite the SRD having a link to the spell). This means that there's significant diminishing returns as far as rounds of use/weapons imbued, because each weapon ticks off the daily uses of Sacred Weapon separately; two weapons imbued with Sacred Weapon's 4th level "divine power" use up two rounds worth of "divine power" every round of use, three weapons use three, and so on.

It isn't clear to me how a first level tengu Warpriest who picks up Feral Combat Training with their 1st level feat can flurry. Maybe a Warpriest who multiclassed into Monk after 1st level?


Shriga wrote:

This thread is only 2 weeks old so I hope this isn't necro:

Several of you list brawling armor, but doesn't brawling armor explicitly not apply to natural weapons like claws/beak? I'm confused as to how this is useful...Or is it only applying to the kick for your multi-attack types?

Feral Combat Training (Combat)

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

So the this allows you to use not use the natural attacks with style feats, monk unarmed strike damage with the natural attack and many this more .... it's not only for flurry of blows...brawling armor alters unarmed strikes so with this feat it alters the natural attack too...

Warpriest Sacred Weapon reads:
"...Whenever the warpriest hits with his sacred weapon, the weapon damage is based on his level ..." Its an allways on ability that alters the damage dice for example the natural attack dice from the tengu claws increase from 1d3 -> 1d6 if a warpriest has weapon focus (claws)

Breiti


Breiti wrote:

Feral Combat Training (Combat)

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

So the this allows you to use not use the natural attacks with style feats, monk unarmed strike damage with the natural attack and many this more .... it's not only for flurry of blows...brawling armor alters unarmed strikes so with this feat it alters the natural attack too...

Ah-haaaa! Very nice.

Breiti wrote:

Warpriest Sacred Weapon reads:

"...Whenever the warpriest hits with his sacred weapon, the weapon damage is based on his level ..." Its an allways on ability that alters the damage dice for example the natural attack dice from the tengu claws increase from 1d3 -> 1d6 if a warpriest has weapon focus (claws)

Breiti

Yes, I was aware of that, I was specifically referencing some discussion of the use of Sacred Weapon to gain a magic attack bonus. That seems to be limited to level/day rounds. Sorry I was not more clear.


Also, theres a feat for multiweapon warpriest to augment them at he same time.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
How do you lock in the Sneak Attack Damage, with the Vanishing Trick? Do you get the Sneak Attack Damage for every strike in your Full Attack action, or just the first attack?

I am confused by this as well. As far as I know you become visible after your first attack hits thus making the rest of your attacks in the round no longer qualify for sneak attack. Is this false?


stoolpigeon87 wrote:

I had a player in one of my games inquire about the viability of a Tengu based martial character, and I'll be honest I hadn't given it too much thought before.

The idea is to be some sort of front line martial who focuses on the Tengu's great natural attack routine.

Best I could come up with was a straigth warpriest with destruction blessing.

1class: WF Claw
1hd: WF Bite
3HD: Power Attack
3Bonus: Dragon Style
5HD: Feral combat training: Claw (might be a better choise)
6Bonus: Eldritch Claws

So with a potion of enlarge person, divine favor, destruction blessing, power attack, and a base of 16 strength the routine at level 6 should be

2xClaw: +4bab +1WF +2DF +3basestr +1EPstr -1EPpenalty -1PA: +9 to hit
: 2d6 +4str +2DF +2PA +3Blessing: For 2d6+11
1xBite: +4bab +1WF +2DF +3basestr +1EPstr -1EPpenalty -1PA: +9 to hit
: 2d6 +4str +2DF +2PA +3Blessing: For 2d6+11

So a total of 6d6+33 if all three hit and the attacks are considered magic and silver without any items and can charge through difficult terain.


No kicks (unarmed strikes) with that build though. Maybe Sacred Fist would be better?


Lune wrote:
No kicks (unarmed strikes) with that build though. Maybe Sacred Fist would be better?

You cannot combine flurry with natural attacks to gain more attacks so the best you could do is a kick 2d6+9 at +9 to hit and claw/claw/bite at+5 2d6+7 and no PA, dragon, or eldritch as you need wf and FCT for both claw and bite. I would prefer the higher chance to hit and and functionality of the non sacred fist. You could if you wanted to give up a claw attack to use a shield too for increased survivability.


So don't flurry. Big whoop. You are still pulling out more attacks with a higher hit chance. I'm not sure why you are saying you can't combine Power Attack with all that. You definitely can.

Silver Crusade

I know I love a vivisectionist for this kind of build, 3 natural attacks all getting sneak on someone who can become invisible is damn sexy.


Mellok wrote:
stoolpigeon87 wrote:

I had a player in one of my games inquire about the viability of a Tengu based martial character, and I'll be honest I hadn't given it too much thought before.

The idea is to be some sort of front line martial who focuses on the Tengu's great natural attack routine.

Best I could come up with was a straigth warpriest with destruction blessing.

1class: WF Claw
1hd: WF Bite
3HD: Power Attack
3Bonus: Dragon Style
5HD: Feral combat training: Claw (might be a better choise)
6Bonus: Eldritch Claws

So with a potion of enlarge person, divine favor, destruction blessing, power attack, and a base of 16 strength the routine at level 6 should be

2xClaw: +4bab +1WF +2DF +3basestr +1EPstr -1EPpenalty -1PA: +9 to hit
: 2d6 +4str +2DF +2PA +3Blessing: For 2d6+11
1xBite: +4bab +1WF +2DF +3basestr +1EPstr -1EPpenalty -1PA: +9 to hit
: 2d6 +4str +2DF +2PA +3Blessing: For 2d6+11

So a total of 6d6+33 if all three hit and the attacks are considered magic and silver without any items and can charge through difficult terain.

I came up with something similar in the Warpriest Guide thread:

CL1 Wrp1 Dual Enhancement, Weapon Focus (Claws), Improved Unarmed (Sacred)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Bite)
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 Two-Weapon Fighting
CL6 Wrp6 Improved TWF
CL7 Wrp7 ???
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Pummeling Style, ???
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Full Attack (lv12):
+11 (Unarmed Main-Hand) / +11 (Unarmed Off-Hand) / +6 (Claw) / +6 (Claw) / +6 (Bite) / +6 (Unarmed Main-Hand) / +6 (Unarmed Off-hand) / +1 (Unarmed Off-Hand); all deal 1d10+3 (+Str for Main and Natural attacks; +1/2 Str for Off-Hands).

---

As-is, with TWF, ITWF, and GTWF it's 8 attacks for 44+24 average damage and 3 Feats open at lv12 (much more damage than Sacred Fist, same number of available feats)

With just Two-Weapon Fighting, it's 6 attacks for avg 33+18 damage and 5 feats open. (slightly less damage than Sacred Fist, 2 feats more than SF)

With TWF and ITWF it's 7 attacks for avg 38.5+21 damage and 4 feats open (slightly more damage than Sacred Fist, and 1 more feat)

If this isn't PFS, you could take Multiattack and increase all your Natural Attacks to BAB-2, rather than BAB-5 (for a full attack action of +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1)

A Tengu Warpriest may miss out on the extra feats normally awarded to a Human, but MAN do they make it up in iterative attacks.


Lune wrote:
So don't flurry. Big whoop. You are still pulling out more attacks with a higher hit chance. I'm not sure why you are saying you can't combine Power Attack with all that. You definitely can.

Just ment that at lvl 6 you have used all 4 of your feats to make your claw and bite the same damage as your kick, down side of sacred fist giving up sacred weapon. You can of course pick up PA at 7th


chbgraphicarts wrote:


I came up with something similar in the Warpriest Guide thread:

CL1 Wrp1 Dual Enhancement, Weapon Focus (Claws), Improved Unarmed (Sacred)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Bite)
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 Two-Weapon Fighting
CL6 Wrp6 Improved TWF
CL7 Wrp7 ???
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Pummeling Style

I had not considered the effect of a deity with favored weapon unarmed strike as deities weapon does not need weapon focus to get sacred weapon damage. I believe that only the main hand will get strength to damage and everything else only gets half.

Grand Lodge

Lune wrote:
I am confused by this as well. As far as I know you become visible after your first attack hits thus making the rest of your attacks in the round no longer qualify for sneak attack. Is this false?

All your attacks in that round you attack from invisible are against their flat footed AC, thus giving you sneak attack, until their turn. This also means, if a party member forces them to provoke an AoO, you get sneak on that AoO too.


Mellok wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:


I came up with something similar in the Warpriest Guide thread:

CL1 Wrp1 Dual Enhancement, Weapon Focus (Claws), Improved Unarmed (Sacred)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Bite)
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 Two-Weapon Fighting
CL6 Wrp6 Improved TWF
CL7 Wrp7 ???
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Pummeling Style

I had not considered the effect of a deity with favored weapon unarmed strike as deities weapon does not need weapon focus to get sacred weapon damage. I believe that only the main hand will get strength to damage and everything else only gets half.

Ah, yeah - I forgot that, in addition to the -5 BAB for becoming Secondary Attacks, they get 1/2 Strength.

That being said, Strength wouldn't be your major concern, anyway - all the damage would be coming from Sacred Weapon and/or an Amulet of Might Fists (though the Amulet is better spent granting you an Impact effect)

---

And, yeah, a Tengu Warpriest of Irori is pretty nasty. You don't get Destruction, but you do get Strength, meaning you are GOING to hit (you also have access to Good, so you can spam summoned monsters, too).


I believe impact cannot apply to natural weapons. They are light weapons.

Dafydd, your statement only applies if you are attacking in the first round of combat, before your opponents have acted. Otherwise, they are denied their Dex to AC against your first attack (but not flat-footed), and all of your other attacks are normal

Dark Archive

Dafydd wrote:
Lune wrote:
I am confused by this as well. As far as I know you become visible after your first attack hits thus making the rest of your attacks in the round no longer qualify for sneak attack. Is this false?

All your attacks in that round you attack from invisible are against their flat footed AC, thus giving you sneak attack, until their turn. This also means, if a party member forces them to provoke an AoO, you get sneak on that AoO too.

No, only the first attack you make while invisible is against flat-footed ac. Every attack after that is against normal AC.


Dafydd wrote:
Lune wrote:
I am confused by this as well. As far as I know you become visible after your first attack hits thus making the rest of your attacks in the round no longer qualify for sneak attack. Is this false?

All your attacks in that round you attack from invisible are against their flat footed AC, thus giving you sneak attack, until their turn. This also means, if a party member forces them to provoke an AoO, you get sneak on that AoO too.

Um... no?

Vanishing Trick states that it functions as invisibility. Invisibility states that the spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. Thus as soon as you make your first attack you become visible. Your opponent is no longer flat-footed against you and you can no longer sneak attack them.

It isn't like you become visible at the end of your attack routine or something.

...and I see that Mathwei already got to it. Piss.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Best Class / Build to Focus on a Tengu's Strengths and Natural Attacks? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.