So, I have a concept in mind of a Dex based Brawler who specializes in grappling; however, I could use a little help. I have never delved into the realm of grappling before. The mechanics build the build I had in mind are as follows. This is for PFS. Forgot to mention that...
Race: Human
Class: Brawler (Mutagenic Mualer
Str 12
Dex 16+2 18
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 10
Feats:
1st - Improved Grapple
Human - Agile Maneuvers
2nd (Brawler) - Grabbing Style
3rd - Weapon Finesse
5th - Piranha Strike
5th (Brawler) - Grabbing Drag
7th - Greater Grapple
8th (Brawler) - Grabbing Master
9th - Pinning Rend
11th - ???
11th (Brawler) - ???
I plan on picking up an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist ASAP. That appears to be around level 3-4.
So at 1st level this should net me a +7 to Grapple, not including my mutagen usage. That will end up putting me at +9 bonus to Grapple. Thoughts?
I don't know if that's overkill or not enough kill... I am definitely open to suggestions!
I Think i would go for the strangler archtype. Exept it is a bit unclear if they loose IUS and therefore dosent quailfy for improved grabble and if that is the case i guess the Archtype is a mistake.
And +7 is ok at level 1.
From what I can tell it seems that the archetype does indeed lose IUS, which is asinine. Which is stupid considering that you essentially have to be human to take that archetype at 1st level and be able to use your primary class feature at 1st level. Makes no sense.
Other than picking up Greater Grapple, increasing BAB, and Dex.. what are some other ways to bring up my CMB for grappling? And just to verify, when dealing damage with a successful grapple... you still add all the standard bonuses one gains on a normal attack, correct?
Yeah, I wouldn't call it unclear at all. It's pretty obvious it loses IUS.
Yes it seems that Way but then the AT is not exactly a grapple specialist now os it?
Grappling isn't going to be particuarly effective at low levels.
You've also failed to include rapid grappler as your 9th level feat which is more important than pinning rend at 9th level.
Also, you should pick up Andaconda Coils to grant yourself constrict damage.
Really, look up a Tetori monk build and follow that because that's basically what you're after.
Also, keep in mind your AC will go down by 2 every time you grapple because you take a -4 penalty to dex. Which means you're ability to continue your grapple also goes down by 2 each time because you're using dex with agile maneuvers to grapple.
So to initiate a grapple at level 1 you would have a +7. But to maintain the grapple you would have a +5 due to the dex penalty.
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Tetori is mandatory for a dex-based grappler IMO. Otherwise, your grapple check is going to drop by two as soon as you grapple someone.
Other than that, Worship Falayna, and consider a two level dip into White Haired witch as an alternative to the belt of anacondas coils to unlock Final Embrace, taking the King Crab familiar.
there are some magic items that boost your CMB, there's gloves of something something, some sort of bracer, and sticking a particular ioun stone into a wayfinder. There's also now the spell 'extreme flexibility'. You can also get a crab familiar somehow.
Awesome. Thanks for that, I'll work on looking up those items!
Grappling isn't going to be particuarly effective at low levels.
You've also failed to include rapid grappler as your 9th level feat which is more important than pinning rend at 9th level.
Also, you should pick up Andaconda Coils to grant yourself constrict damage.
Really, look up a Tetori monk build and follow that because that's basically what you're after.
Also, keep in mind your AC will go down by 2 every time you grapple because you take a -4 penalty to dex. Which means you're ability to continue your grapple also goes down by 2 each time because you're using dex with agile maneuvers to grapple.
So to initiate a grapple at level 1 you would have a +7. But to maintain the grapple you would have a +5 due to the dex penalty.
See? That's why I ask for help! I did not even see Rapid Grappler, I concur that is much more effective than Pinning Rend. Just to clarify on Rapid Grappler, that essentially allows you then three different grapple attempts in one round? Two grapple checks per round at a movement action per Greater Grappler, and then a third as a swift action via Rapid Grappler?
Also, for some reason I was thinking Grabbing Style removed the Dex penalty while grappling; however, that's only when Pinning. Hmmm.... I see the Strangler archetype allows you to ignore the Dex penalty while grappled... It seems that the Strangler is supposed to be [b]the[/be] agile grappler build... other than losing the oh so important IUS. Stupid!
So give us your new build when you have it, Faelyn!
It seems that the Strangler is supposed to be [b]the[/be] agile grappler build... other than losing the oh so important IUS. Stupid!
The tetori monk archetype is basically the same. It remove Flurry of Blows as well, but leaves you with augmented unarmed strike damage.
I agree though, that with losing the enhanced unarmed strike damage it makes it more difficult to deal effective damage as a brawler. It would have been better if they had left the unarmed strike damage in, even at a reduced rate.
Oy... I looked at the Tetori monk and it's exactly what I'd like to see in a Brawler archetype, because I just don't like the fluff of the monk and all the eastern style abilities for this character. Grumble, grumble. I suppose I'll just have to suck up the penalty, though that's what mutagens are for!
I'm currently out with the family, so I'll take a good look at the suggestions and post tomorrow.
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there are some magic items that boost your CMB, there's gloves of something something, some sort of bracer, and sticking a particular ioun stone into a wayfinder. There's also now the spell 'extreme flexibility'. You can also get a crab familiar somehow.Awesome. Thanks for that, I'll work on looking up those items!
Easily done - here's a list of PFS legal items that involve the term 'grapple' which can be purchased with 25 fame or less. You can click the 'Fame' button to expand the slider to adjust the fame higher if desired.
And here is the same search with cmb instead of grapple.
There's definitely some useful stuff there ;)
Edit: one more item, out of mundane equipment: Grappler's Grease. Cheap and would be fun to use in a game. "Excuse me as I get greased up!".
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Edit: one more item, out of mundane equipment: Grappler's Grease. Cheap and would be fun to use in a game. "Excuse me as I get greased up!".
Especially if you are an oracle wit the deaf curse.
You can ignore the flavor of the monk, make him a wrestler, call his Ki points 'style points' or whatever you'd like to.
Hollister, thanks for the search results! That's pretty nifty...
You can ignore the flavor of the monk, make him a wrestler, call his Ki points 'style points' or whatever you'd like to.
That is true. The other thing I like about the brawler over the monk (for this specific character) is ability to increase damage on the Close Weapon group. 1d8 adamantine knuckles? Yes please!
Going to do a little reevaluating on the build and post in a little bit.
Race: Human
Class: Brawler (Mutagenic Mualer
Str 12
Dex 16+2 18
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 10
Feats:
1st - Improved Grapple
Human - Agile Maneuvers
2nd (Brawler) - Weapon Finesse
3rd - Grabbing Style
5th - Piranha Strike
5th (Brawler) - Grabbing Drag
7th - Greater Grapple
8th (Brawler) - Grabbing Master
9th - Rapid Grappler
11th - Pinning Rend
11th (Brawler) - ???
So I decided to switch around Weapon Finesse and Grabbing Style. Grabbing Style is pretty cool, but that low level I won't be attempting to grapple two opponents at once and likely won't be attempting to pin, but rather deal damage. I figure I'll be straight attacking almost as much as grappling at lower levels and getting that extra +3 attack is a must have.
Despite much searching and hoping, I have not found anyway to get around that -2 penalty from the Dex smack from grappled condition without going Strangler of Tetori monk. I really want to stay with Brawler as it is the perfect thematic fit for the PC. And Strangler is just... disappointing for a standard Society group. I think the archetype is great for NPCs or even a more roguish type character, just not a great fit for PFS.
Still not quite sure how to finish up my last feat. I thought about trying to fit Body Shield in there somewhere, but I'm not sure where.
I have also found a very interesting mundane weapon that is amazing for grapplers. The Dan Bong provide +2 grapple checks. That will help offset the penalty for loss of Dex. So at first level my initial grapple check will be +9 to initiate the grapple and then +12 to maintain the grapple. So not too bad, but now I need to find a way to bump my CMD... I think it's a little weird that the get out of a grapple you need to only beat the CMD of the grappler as opposed to the actual grapple check, but... Such is life I suppose.
Anyone have any suggestions for traits?
So...the dan bong is actually a mess. If both hands aren't free you take a -4 penalty to grapple. The dan bong does nothing to say the penalty doesn't apply, so you effectively get another -2 (-4+2) when using one while grappling.
Well, that can't have actually been the way the thing was intended to work. The clear intention was that you get a +2 to grappling. An interpretation of the rules that results in getting a -2 to grappling cannot be the intent of the designers.
I have also found a very interesting mundane weapon that is amazing for grapplers. The Dan Bong provide +2 grapple checks. That will help offset the penalty for loss of Dex. So at first level my initial grapple check will be +9 to initiate the grapple and then +12 to maintain the grapple. So not too bad, but now I need to find a way to bump my CMD...
I wouldn't advise picking up the dan bong until you have Grabbing Style. Here's the problem:
When you wield a dan bong in one hand, you get +2 to grapple.When you attempt a grapple with one hand, you take a -4 penalty.
Wielding a dan bong gets you a net -2 to grapple.
In a home game, most GM's would rule that the dan bong wouldn't incur the -4 because it's a weapon that's intended to be used when grappling. However, in PFS, expect table variation.
Now, with grabbing style, you don't take the penalty for grappling one-handed, so the dan bong actually works!
I think it's a little weird that the get out of a grapple you need to only beat the CMD of the grappler as opposed to the actual grapple check, but... Such is life I suppose.
Well, CMD is you maneuver armor class, so it makes sense. Think of breaking the grapple as "hitting you back" after you hit them. Also, you can grapple creatures on a 15, but your CMD will be much higher than that.
Anyone have any suggestions for traits?
I haven't seen any useful traits for medium-sized maneuver characters, so you can use your traits to fill out any weaknesses in your build. (I suppose you can try to take Equality for All, even through it's from the Halflings book.)
I've toyed with combining Prehensile Whip with Quick Draw, to see if GMs will let me quick draw a whip and tie someone up with it.
Some other suggestions:
The feat Equipment Trick (Rope tricks) has some nice benefit for grapplers.
My Halfling tetori worships [url=http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Falayna], for the best celestial obedience feat (and one of the best feats in general) for a grapple build. I actually changed up my character concept to make it work, it's just that good.
General strategy:
Like most combat maneuvers, grappling is easier to pull off at low levels. However, you won't be able to tie people up in one round. Don't let that dissuade you: grappling is one of the most effective debuffs and battlefield control techniques in the game.
Your goal is hold enemies down so your team mates can more easily beat them up. For this strategy, you want to get your team to delay until you grapple the target. This is especially helpful against smaller enemies: The size bonuses to AC become penalties to their CMD, so imps, quasits, faeries, etc. are a bear to hit but a breeze to grapple. once you catch the little buggers, their AC against your friends effectively drops by 4.
As a battlefield control strategy, once you have someone grappled, they (usually) can't make attacks of opportunity, so your teammates can get into position. (BTW, this is one of the early advantages of the tetori archetype: they can still make attacks of opportunity while grappling.)
Grapple. Every. Spellcaster. The concentration check is a nightmare for them. Remind your GM that spell-like abilities also need a grapple check, so those domain, bloodline, or arcane school powers might not work, either. Watch out for supernatural and extraordinary abilities, though: evil clerics can still channel negative against you while grappling.
You will take full attacks in the grapple. The target has nothing else to focus on, and if he can knock you out, he's free. Be prepared for that.
Have something else to do against foes you can't grapple. Undead suck for grapplers, especially incorporeal undead. (Word to the wise: do not try to grapple a spectre.)
A couple of warnings:
Expect GM variation on how you can tie up a creature. When you need a standard action to maintain and pin, and a move action to draw a rope, some GMs will penalize you on maintenance check to tie up, some will say you have to release the grapple to draw the rope, and some will just say you can't do it. I usually have other options available, like a reinforced scarf.
Overall, expect table variation on grappling. Some GMs hate it so much that they won't play with a tetori monk. There are a lot of contentious message board threads on grappling (do you threaten, can you flurry, etc.).
To mitigate this, I keep a copy of the grappling flow chart and a cheat sheet of what you can and can't do while grappling. I hand this to the GM before the game (and mention the the messageboard arguments) and point out any places my character breaks the normal grappling rules (tetoris are all about breaking the normal grappling rules).
Letting your GM consider the issues up front and make the decisions before combat starts will help keep the game going and help alleviate any concerns your GM has about grappling. (In 3.0 and 3.5, grappling rules were a nightmare; a lot of GMs might not have seen the Pathfinder version of grappling yet.)
And happly grappling!
Well, that can't have actually been the way the thing was intended to work. The clear intention was that you get a +2 to grappling. An interpretation of the rules that results in getting a -2 to grappling cannot be the intent of the designers.
Unfortunately for PFS that doesn't help. He should be prepared for the likely event that the result will be an effective -2 penalty.
I suppose the best thing to do with the Dan Bong is to have one with me and then see what each GM says prior to combat and either equip or not. And thank you for all the awesome suggestions, Gwen!
I'll have to figure out how to fit in Deific Obedience, because that is awesome! I think I will try this feat progression...
Race: Human
Class: Brawler (Mutagenic Mualer
Str 12
Dex 16+2 18
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 10
Feats:
1st - Improved Grapple
Human - Agile Maneuvers
2nd (Brawler) - Weapon Finesse
3rd - Deific Obedience (Falayna)
5th - Piranha Strike
5th (Brawler) - Grabbing Style
7th - Greater Grapple
8th (Brawler) - Grabbing Drag
9th - Rapid Grappler
11th - Grabbing Master
11th (Brawler) - Pinning Rend
I think to help out with non-grappling situations I'll look at picking up a punching dagger with a little magical buffs and some Ghost Salt (I think that's what it is...). Now here's a question... How would a Monk's Robe go with Close Weapon Mastery? Would that then essentially treat the close weapons as the brawler's full level for unarmed damage?
And lastly... Should I put that 13 into strength and pick up Power Attack over Piranha Strike? Then put my 4th level stat bump into Str to help boost my CMD?
I suppose the best thing to do with the Dan Bong is to have one with me and then see what each GM says prior to combat and either equip or not. And thank you for all the awesome suggestions, Gwen!
I'll have to figure out how to fit in Deific Obedience, because that is awesome! I think I will try this feat progression...
Race: Human
Class: Brawler (Mutagenic Mualer
Str 12
Dex 16+2 18
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 10Feats:
1st - Improved Grapple
Human - Agile Maneuvers
2nd (Brawler) - Weapon Finesse
3rd - Deific Obedience (Falayna)
5th - Piranha Strike
5th (Brawler) - Grabbing Style
7th - Greater Grapple
8th (Brawler) - Grabbing Drag
9th - Rapid Grappler
11th - Grabbing Master
11th (Brawler) - Pinning RendI think to help out with non-grappling situations I'll look at picking up a punching dagger with a little magical buffs and some Ghost Salt (I think that's what it is...). Now here's a question... How would a Monk's Robe go with Close Weapon Mastery? Would that then essentially treat the close weapons as the brawler's full level for unarmed damage?
And lastly... Should I put that 13 into strength and pick up Power Attack over Piranha Strike? Then put my 4th level stat bump into Str to help boost my CMD?
IMOP if you plan the character then using a stat increase in any stat but the highest is folly. If you want str 14 but want your dex higher then look at what you want and how to spend the points best for maximum extra power from the level based stat increases.
Well... No matter where I put that 13, it's going to get a stat bump at 4th level. I'd like to get that extra +1 bonus to either Wis (Will) or Str (CMD).