The nature of PvP as MVP?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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I understand that PVP features such as Faction, Feuds, SADS and Wars will be further down the road perhaps even many months into Early Enrollment. I also understand that the War of Towers is our initial entry point into PVP, and that is due to begin about 2 weeks after EE launch. My questions are…

What will be the nature of PVP, prior to, during and after those systems are in place?

When will we see full implementation of encumbrance, limited item threading and player looting?

I would also like to add that on the subject of item looting, there seems to be some debate as to what constitutes "starting character equipment". I'm not sure if the plans include treating all tier 1 gear (+0 to +5) as "starter character gear" and therefore completely threaded?

Goblin Squad Member

I assume when you talking of when, you are fishing for a target build number relative to the current one?

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
I would also like to add that on the subject of item looting, there seems to be some debate as to what constitutes "starting character equipment". I'm not sure if the plans include treating all tier 1 gear (+0 to +5) as "starter character gear" and therefore completely threaded?

I certainly hope that Tier 1 is not considered starter gear and auto threaded. Threading should take an action on the part of the player. The only starter gear should be that which a character begins the game with upon creation.

Goblin Squad Member

Ravenlute wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
I would also like to add that on the subject of item looting, there seems to be some debate as to what constitutes "starting character equipment". I'm not sure if the plans include treating all tier 1 gear (+0 to +5) as "starter character gear" and therefore completely threaded?
I certainly hope that Tier 1 is not considered starter gear and auto threaded. Threading should take an action on the part of the player. The only starter gear should be that which a character begins the game with upon creation.

I could see tier 1 + 0 gear being possible to thread completely at the start. But once a character adds a T1+1 item to their paper doll (slotted), that item should take up two threads. A T1+2 item would take up three slots, etc....etc...

Goblin Squad Member

Very good question Blud. I think I've always imagined it as something where the big pieces (armor/weapons/implements) increase in thread value more quickly than consumables, wondrous items and the like. What the exact ratio on that is I'm not sure.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I have to 100% agree with Bluddwolf - a roadmap for PvP would be very much appreciated.

As I see it right now:
The SIMS part of the game is in place and I regard MVP in this area as achieved as settlements are able to build up economies. This part could start any time and the earlier, the better.

The technical part (desync, teleport) is worked on and EE won't start until this part works well enough.

The PvP part is still too far off to even be able to make a judgement.

I understand that the economies took precedent as they will form the foundation to make the sandbox meaningful and needs to be there from the start.

The technical part is crucial because otherwise people will stop playing / your support system will be overwhelmed.

Some PvP features won't be crucial on day 1. I would go even that far to say that a lack of PvP in week 1 or 2 could be beneficial to build up economies without danger to have them impeded by PvP that early. But this part is what this game has been advertised as and what will be of importance long term.
So while I say it isn't as important in week 1 or 2 there will be a time when the lack of integrated PvP features will start harming the whole game.

A roadmap will ensure PvP players know better what to expect. Some might even go so far as to wait until feature x is implemented. And it will ensure settlement builders don't get a reality shock once the PvP features are live.

Exchange roadmap with priority list - but the PvP players deserve some more love from GW right now.

Goblin Squad Member

I hope that player husks make it into alpha with the next patch. Assuming threading not available, I'd accept making equipped items not lootable, and/or specifying certain percentage of inventory to be lootable or even auto looted until other tech ready.

Encumbrance should be in prior and teleportation/desynch issues cleared up first.

In terms of PvP relative to economy, as soon as gathering commences, the role of PvP commences because of competition for resources. A few nights ago I was "competing" with another player to mine nodes in a hex. Right now with no encumbrance or time pressure, there is no real issue with traveling further to get resources. In EE, it will be a meaningful choice to take a rep hit so that gatherers have a shorter trip or more valuable trip back home.

Goblin Squad Member

I see two thing as necessary for MVP to those who are not pure gatherers/crafters.

Functioning Towers and Husk-looting. Without those two the game almost only gives love to the PvE crowd. And one of the thrills is to have an intelligent enemy to avoid/fight/outbuild and not an AI.

Goblin Squad Member

Threads - I believe that Threads were talked about at one point to directly relate to the quality of the Items. Where you could basically have 6-12 Tier 1 Items, 4-6 Tier 2, 2-3 Tier 3.

As far as how I see what is going to happen:

In its current form (and lets say Encumbrance is turned on), I don't see PvP mattering much in EE, at least on day 1. There might be cases where people infringe on others towers, and quickly we will find out which towers those are.

Outside of the towers, it isn't worth it to PvP.

Once Player Looting is added, instead of trying to take peoples towers, people will PvP instead for loot, they will visit open towers and attempt to wipe out people and take their gear.

Then we move past the initial stages once Feuds are introduced.

Feuds will introduce a whole system to allow companies to fight back against those who tried to steal their towers, loot, and everything in between. It will also allow groups to hit settlements weaker companies, and create a whole new set of strategies to use on your enemies.

At this point, is where I personally believe SAD needs to come into the picture. Caravans might not be in, but you should be able to SAD individuals/parties. This will add an interesting twist to game play and make our road ways unsafe, as well as certain parts of the map.

Then I believe we will see Factions. Allowing people to have mortal enemies outside of spending so much on feuds, towers, and SADs. Although towers might be gone at this point. I see Factions being interesting, because the higher you go, the better rewards, as well as the risks. I think everyone will get the first two levels of most factions just to get the goodies, but only certain people (PvPers, Min/Maxer, collectors, and hardcore RPers) will go for those high levels that open you to PvP.

Finally, Wars which I see being the first PvP mechanic to fully utilize the Formations, opening the world and revolutionizing PvP (other have done it, but without collision detection). I don't know what all will come of this mechanic, but it will be awesome, and it will open up hundreds of tactics and strategies to really evolve PvP on the server.

This my thought on the current road map.

Goblin Squad Member

Good points from Cheatle, if I understand him correctly.

If we already had everything that Bluddwolf is asking about, we wouldn't need the towers. The towers are there to provide something until such a time when we have something better.

I wouldn't have followed PFO or spent money on it if not for the great PvP plans but I am prepared to start playing without much of it. With that being said, the more of the good stuff they can squeeze in, and the sooner they can do it, the better.

I would welcome a detailed post or even a blog about the future for PvP-related mechanics. Maybe it is too early to provide a step-by-step plan for it though if there is a boatload of other things to go through first.

Goblin Squad Member

Wurner wrote:

Good points from Cheatle, if I understand him correctly.

If we already had everything that Bluddwolf is asking about, we wouldn't need the towers. The towers are there to provide something until such a time when we have something better.

I wouldn't have followed PFO or spent money on it if not for the great PvP plans but I am prepared to start playing without much of it. With that being said, the more of the good stuff they can squeeze in, and the sooner they can do it, the better.

I would welcome a detailed post or even a blog about the future for PvP-related mechanics. Maybe it is too early to provide a step-by-step plan for it though if there is a boatload of other things to go through first.

The Towers are not providing PVP in general, they are providing Rep Neutral PVP specifically. The points accumulated for the settlements is a byproduct and not the true goal of the WoT. Those points are meant to have meaning, but not all players care about that meaning. Many, including some of my own, have no interest in capturing towers but rather to preserve the FFA hexes as unclaimed and 24/7 Rep Neutral PVP.

Cheatle has a comprehensive list, but I recall Stephen saying that Faction will be in earlier because it is easy to code.

Without husk looting PVP has no real risk. Without that risk there is no excitement to it. After fighting for a half hour, killing the same group over and over, and they killing you over and over..... Boredom sets in, you have Theme Park Arena Style PVP.

Bottom line, in PFO there is no sense of danger. There is no risk for loss or opportunity for gain.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:

At this point, is where I personally believe SAD needs to come into the picture. Caravans might not be in, but you should be able to SAD individuals/parties. This will add an interesting twist to game play and make our road ways unsafe, as well as certain parts of the map.

Then I believe we will see Factions. Allowing people to have mortal enemies outside of spending so much on feuds, towers, and SADs. Although towers might be gone at this point. I see Factions being interesting, because the higher you go, the better rewards, as well as the risks. I think everyone will get the first two levels of most factions just to get the goodies, but only certain people (PvPers, Min/Maxer, collectors, and hardcore RPers) will go for those high levels that open you to PvP.

The last serious things we heard about Stand and Deliver (like back in March, maybe) was that (a) we probably wouldn't see it before settlements, and (b) it might require faction mechanics first.

SAD is a complex mechanic, just to discuss, as it turns into a many-on-many hostility flagging and consequence problem. It might be an incredibly difficult mechanic to program, much more difficult than factions or feud. I expect we'll see those two within EE. We might not see SAD before OE.

Goblin Squad Member

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True, but my point still stands, SADs should go in before Factions/Wars, but after Feuds. It might be more complex to add, but in the whole magnitude of where its at, it is most definitely something that needs to be added before wars.

Goblin Squad Member

Maybe we have a vastly different definition of "need". I expect the game will not suddenly fail if war comes before SAD.

Goblin Squad Member

We do, fair enough, a rogue element to the game is something a lot of people are looking for.

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