Level 17 party going to hell!


Advice


Really, no kidding! ;)

We have some time and gold to prepare before we have to go down to the
Nine Hells to finish some business with Asmodeus.

We cannot buy magic stuff, but our casters have the most important
item creation feats (wondrous, arms & armor, rings, scrolls, potions).

We are 5 players:


  • human fighter 16 / monk 1, trip & crit build with holy fauchard +3 in mithral full plate +4 (that's me)
  • human druid 16 / monk 1, fire & summoner
  • human ranger 17, archer
  • human sorcerer 17, lightning guy
  • dwarf cleric 16 / fighter 1, healer & wild surprises (good and bad...)

Any ideas what to bring?
I still have 60k gold to spend. (all Paizo books allowed)

Here's my (fighter) equipment list (which is quite great, cause I got
most of that custom made and for half price):


  • fauchard +3, holy
  • mithral full plate +4
  • amulet natural armor +5
  • ring deflection +5
  • ring freedom of movement
  • cloak resistance +4
  • headband wisdom +4
  • belt str & dex +6
  • ioun stone con +2
  • gloves of dueling
  • boots of speed
  • quickrunner's shirt
  • many enlarge potions...

things that come to my mind:
- improving the +: fauchard, armor, cloak, belt (to con +6)
- luckstone
- jingasa of the fortunate soldier
- cap of the free thinker
- bracelet of second chances

Any other suggestions and hints are welcome!


wayfinder plus that ioun stone that protect against mental domination from evil creatures seems to be a must.


Evil outsider bane weapon?


Maybe tag the fauchard with Bane (Evil outsiders)?

That'd make 11k if crafted.


Defiant and spell storing armor are also options. Use the spell storing for vampiric touch or something like that.


Either a means of flying (such as lots of potions) or a missile weapon.


Thanks for your replies so far!

What is "wayfinder"? Which ioun stone do you mean?

Bane (Evil outsiders) - OMG, how could I forget that one?!
But does that work in hell?
I remember from older editions that enhancement bonusses went down, some stuff didn't work at all on the outer planes, that still so?

Flying... hm, always relied on the sorcerer, but some more potions make sense, also at least a +1 adaptive comp. long bow.


The GM might have homebrew to that effect, but there's nothing official about that in the books.

If you're getting a longbow, slap bane onto it as well.


"Nothing official" sounds good, mostly our GM sticks to that. Let's hope so...

Any other ideas for ranged weapons?
Problem is I don't have quick draw, and the bow won't do enough damage unless it's holy, which might get a little too expensive.


1- Why armor? (or "why monk?") Seems like you're creating unnecessary overlap.

2- A pet animated object of huge size can be made of steel (hardness 10), fly and burrow, and carry as much as a wagon for 25k. Travel in style, just keep it out of combat.

3- While your fort save is prodigious, a necklace of adaptation means you can breathe poison air better.

4- Planar adaptation in general is a good idea, make sure you're getting it from the casters every day or pack some energy resistance.

5- Wayfinder, it fits in your pocket, and with a clear spindle ioun stone you have permanent protection from evil as it pertains to mind-control. Keep the devils outta your head.

6- spell-storing ioun stone means you can buff yourself with the caster's leftover spells from yesterday.


1 - monk 1 because of: +2 all saves, 2 feats, many skills, and 5ft-range tripping AoO

wayfinder & ioun stone: I'm afraid we won't get that, we usually stick to the hardcover books we have.


Fair enough.

Well, if you have the Advanced Player's Guide and can scrape together another 40k in gold, the Lord's Banner (crusades) provides a 40-foot radius Hallow effect and looks real cool and flashy on the end of your polearm.

Hallow's effects includes Magic Circle Against Evil and a bunch of other stuff.

But 100k is a lot, so you might just want that skullcap and remind your casters to keep a few protection spells ready.

edit: Honestly, you'll probably be fine as long as the casters know what they're doing. Devils like their suggestions, charms, and possessions but it doesn't work THAT often.

And I still like the idea of a party van, animated objects are delightfully customizable.

Scarab Sages

Perhaps Improved Energy Resistance (Fire) might be worth getting on your armor.


wondering if bane (evil outsiders) would work on the outsiders' home plane - in Hell aren't the players the outsiders and the devils the natives?


As far as I know, all the "magic weapons get weaker on other planes" business went away with the end of 2nd edition.

Outsiders are still outsiders, even when they are on their native plane. Certain spells don't work (like dismissal, because they just go to where they already are) but they are still Outsiders. The way I wrap my head around it is that "Outsider" means a creature which is metaphysically polarized with a metaphysical plane, they have a certain amount of "pure X" infused into their being (X being evil, water, positive energy, or whatever) and are therefore tied to that realm in ways prime-critters aren't and strong or weak against certain kinds of magic because of it.

Quoth the SRD:

Quote:
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

Grand Lodge

A few things come to mind:

Undead Army, insanely useful for a raid on Hell. Give em the bane evil outsiders weapons and send em in first.

On a similar vein, hirelings. They make good guards, lookout, mules etc.

HOLY WATER!! Evil Outsiders REALLY dislike this stuff. Carrying a couple galleons of the stuff in the van is a great idea. As well as bringing the silver for restocking the holy water tanks.

Cure potions: If you do not have enough to swim in, you probably do not have enough.

Make sure your druid has spells like Hide Campsite so your likely multi-day travel trough hell can have some rest points. Ring of sustenance is a must too.

Anything to boost Will Saves, for everyone. You do not want anyone to be controlled by the devils and turn on ya. Either they will end up revealing your party weaknesses or you will be forced to kill em. Either way, your group will be weakened.

Edit: Additional thought. You are fighting, not just Evil outsider, but Lawful Evil Outsiders. Picking up Bane Evil outsider and Bane Lawful outsider will give you +4 more to hit and 4d6+4 to damage. The holy is good, but also check out anarchaic for weapons (not yours, you are lawful for the monk dip I assume).

Your +1 Bane [Evil Outsider] Bane [Lawful Outsider] Fauchard would be acting as a +5 Fauchard, dealing 1d10+5+4d6 plus 1.5 your STR bonus to most if not all the things you will meet in hell. Note that the +5 will bypass alignment DR as well as silver/cold iron AND adamantine if the devil has any of that. Make it a +2 bane bane weapon, and you will stomp past epic DR too.


Dafydd wrote:
Picking up Bane Evil outsider and Bane Lawful outsider will give you +4 more to hit and 4d6+4 to damage.

It seems to be generally agreed on the forums that this doesn't work due to 'same source' or 'you can't have the same property twice' or something.

Grand Lodge

Matthew Downie wrote:
Dafydd wrote:
Picking up Bane Evil outsider and Bane Lawful outsider will give you +4 more to hit and 4d6+4 to damage.
It seems to be generally agreed on the forums that this doesn't work due to 'same source' or 'you can't have the same property twice' or something.

Maybe, but it does not say anywhere that 2 different bane properties do not stack unlike with elemental properties. In my home game, I would allow it as the weapon becomes highly deadly to 1 or 2 specific groups while gaining you the hatred of many groups.

OP, in your game, clear it with your GM first of course. If you get the green light on it, be aware that any archons or inevitables your group may call on will not be liking you.

Sczarni

"Holy" bonus to a weapon. It's a +2 bonus and deals 2D6 damage to any evil creatures.

Moves past the question of who is the outsider and thus if evil outsider bane would work in hell. If your GM allows the bane, take both.

Definately, resistance to fire in either ring form or having it applied to your armor.

If you have the left over gold, frost and possibly frost burst since most are not immune (and possibly have weakness) to cold.


I'm not sure what the best options are, but you should have something ready in case you need to get out of Hell fast. Dismissal might be an option as a panic button. Since this isn't your home plane it would kick you out. Yes there is some risk, but at that point the whole mission is a wash.

Speaking of Dismissal it might be a good idea to have something ready in case it gets used on you.

Also you should have a plan B in case your ride home bites the dust. Also a backup to your spellcaster for a source of flight. If I recall right there is a lot of rough ground to cover and there at least one point where there's a huge out right drop between layers.

Something to make you look evil enough to fit in might also help make the locals less likely to kill you on sight. These are Devils so they won't attack for no gain (killing good heros is almost always a great way to move up the ranks). It would also help if you had stuff to barter there like a unicorn's horn, or the blood of a virgin. Tall order to fill, but as high level heros you should be able to get some of these types of things willingly. Indeed that might up the value for them since it's rather rare for very good beings to give anything to very evil beings.


Ulfen Death Squad wrote:
If you have the left over gold, frost and possibly frost burst since most are not immune (and possibly have weakness) to cold.

Cold isn't as great as one would think. There is in fact more than one cold layer to Hell. Stygia is a mostly frozen sea and Cania is insanely cold. So expect tons of cold type foes.

Also expect acid, lots of acid. Poison too. I don't think lighting is a major theme anywhere. Sonic is the only engry that is going to be really safe to use on most things.

Shadow Lodge

Preparation: Leave your last will and testaments with someone.

Shadow Lodge

Raisse wrote:
Perhaps Improved Energy Resistance (Fire) might be worth getting on your armor.

Fools! Real devils use hellfire!

Liberty's Edge

"All hope abandon ye who enter here."

Bring friends for the fun?


Thanks for all the advice so far!

A few comments:
- bane + bane is not allowed by our GM
- my weapon is already holy, so it will be an extra +2 / 4d6+2
- one of the few things our GM mentioned was to keep a low profile, so I'll forward some hints you gave to the spellcasters.
- as we have some time to prepare available, we'll try to find out as much as possible in advance how our GM's hell works (sounds strange!)


Good plan about reading up on hell.


Holy Water dropped by magical creatures and/or servants is an excellent way to whittle down evil outsiders in combat.


Holy water, really? At level 17?
Are there any rules how to handle large amounts of holy water?

Grand Lodge

Never scoff at additional damage that bypasses all DR and ER.

However, there is no rules I am aware of for large amounts of holy water.

If you do take guards, you might wanna hand out silver Everflowing Aspergillums. These are +1 Battle Aspergillums that never run out of holy water and count as good for DR. Making them out of silver lets em bypass Silver DR. They are cheap (4k crafting cost).


Strictly speaking there's nothing against using a bucket-full as an improvised weapon for (full immersion is usually 10x) 20d4 points of damage that doesn't have much of any way of being resisted. Another option is using magic (Shrink Item, Polymorph Any Object, and dust of dryness come to mind) to make small, easy-to throw/shoot containers full of large amounts of holy water. Use it to poison the wine when the party is infiltrating a Devil-lord's palace during an Infernal Orgy. Fill a portable hole with it and hold a low-ranking devil over it as part of an intimidate/interrogate situation. Have the druid cast Animate Water on it just to see the look on the DM's face...

I mean it's up to you, but it's cheap (relatively speaking) and there's no "I'm resistant/immune" option for evil outsiders.

I'm still not sure of a way to mass-produce it for cheaper, sadly, but this isn't that one adventure path where you need hundreds of gallons of the stuff.


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Don't forget to pack a fiddle.


Find out everything you can about what you are getting yourself into. Do some homework, talk to sages, scry, commune whatever you can to gain information.

There are going to be more Will Saves than is comfortable. Anything you can find to help protect against dominate/mind control.

Some type of energy protection is going to be a must have in my opinion. The energy attacks are going to be more of an issue than the melee attacks.

Standard things like a method to fly and a method to deal with flying creatures. Some life support (Necklace of Adaptation?) or soemthing similar. Freedom of Movement. Most importantly, True Sight.

The question you need to get answered is if Devils in Hell are considered Outsiders? In my world they are not but your milage may vary. That will make a big difference.

Don't under estimate type 1 bags of holding full of Holy Water. That's 250 pounds of Holy water. That is going to cause some serious problems, espeially if you have multiple.

Someone already mentioned this but multiple "get out of jail free cards". Dismissal, Gate, Word of Recall. if it goes bad I would think it going REALLY bad and you are going to want multiple ways to get out. Finding some way to be immune to Dimensional Anchor might be a bonus =)


A few more...

Traveler's Anytool - always :)
Bead of Newt Prevention (possibly more than 1)
Escape Dust
Bottled Yeti Fur (because amulet of natural armor is an enhancement bonus to nat armor and will stack with base nat armor)
Fortifying Stone
Tengu Drinking Jug
Hat of Disguise
Bottle of Air / Necklace of Adaptation
Void Pennant
Iron Spike of Safe Passage (to hide campsites, unless one of your casters is making demi planes)
Spectral Shroud
Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess
Goggles of Night (unless you already have Darkvision in some other manner)
Silver Spindle IOUN Stone (3x/day of a single 1st L spell chosen when item is created, cast at your character Level ; suggestions: shield, liberating command, unwelcome halo, vanish, aspect of the falcon, faerie fire, feather step, air bubble, obscuring mist, entropic shield, fallback strategy, sanctify corpse, or Abadar's truthtelling)
Pale Green Prism IOUN Stone

-TimD


Bane and the pale green ioun stone would be great. If you crit a lot, why not go vorpal?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/vorpal

If you expect there to be a ceiling from which to hang from, CLOAK OF THE BAT would be something very nice all of the non-melee players could have as to stay out of reach of baddies.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cloak -of-the-bat


If you can at all get your hand on one (though you probably can't) then I recommend picking up an "Ampoule of False Blood" of the aquatic bloodline for the sorcerer. The 15th level power "Raise the deep" can be hilarious to spring on enemies if the party has the means to deal with underwater combat.

That's pretty much what saved my party's asses when we went to hell to fight a boss some months ago.


Holy water is useless to you at level 17.

60k is a lot of dosh! Time to get some stuff:

a bunch of wayfinders

Pale green prism ioun

Clear Spindle ioun stone

Put em all in the wayfinder

I would recommend potions of lesser resto, remove blindness/deafness, and maybe some antiplague for when you fight plague demons.


Some more good suggestions, thanks!

Talked to our GM...
No wayfinders, no ampoule of false blood.
But we'll be able to get that planar adaptation spell.

I actually haven't mentioned what we're supposed to do in hell:
We have to find and get some artefact which Asmodeus uses as a "proxy"
to pretend being some other good deity to deceive a big city's clergy
on our prime. I think we'll get some hint where to look.

So we must stay undetected as long as possible, because of this
"divinely morphic" thing. Cause if we know where to find the artefact,
but the controlling deity changes the plane... well, that's it.
Some more ideas to not let the devils teleport?

BTW: embarassing, but I always forget that my fighter is half-elf, not that it matters, but playing that PC for 2.5 years now and 17 levels... no racism towards my elvish side meant! ;)


Another thing that just came to my mind:
Wasn't there a problem with bags of holding and inter-planar travel,
or has that also changed from older editions?
Haven't ever done any planar stuff in PF yet as you can see.


I don't think so. Bag of Holding is an extradimensional space. The only problem with extradimensional spaces is that you can't put an extradimensional space inside another one.


AkaKageWarrior wrote:

Some more good suggestions, thanks!

Talked to our GM...
No wayfinders, no ampoule of false blood.
But we'll be able to get that planar adaptation spell.

I actually haven't mentioned what we're supposed to do in hell:
We have to find and get some artefact which Asmodeus uses as a "proxy"
to pretend being some other good deity to deceive a big city's clergy
on our prime. I think we'll get some hint where to look.

So we must stay undetected as long as possible, because of this
"divinely morphic" thing. Cause if we know where to find the artefact,
but the controlling deity changes the plane... well, that's it.
Some more ideas to not let the devils teleport?

BTW: embarassing, but I always forget that my fighter is half-elf, not that it matters, but playing that PC for 2.5 years now and 17 levels... no racism towards my elvish side meant! ;)

Well, if you wheedle it out of your DM you could try and get that banner I mentioned and somehow jam a dimensional anchor effect into it.

Dimensional lock is temporary, but if you get spotted by 6 devils and need to lock 'em down/kill 'em before they flee and report you it can help.

Legend Lore and divination spells can just keep tracking the artifact.

Abjuration and illusion can keep you from getting noticed. The right level of devil can be interrogated, imprisoned, and impersonated for quite a ways. Going to have to do some divination and research to make sure you know what lies to tell on your way. Forgery might also prove to be a useful skill.

The Party Van, if you're interested, can be made to look like a giant hell-beast, turned invisible, or simply dragged to "the boss" (before attempted assassination) as a gift (and weapon of infernal war) as long as you stick enough spikes and skulls on it.

Likewise, assassinating devil lords and making it look like a demon or a rival devil did it can HELP you because it stirs up trouble. Just make sure you've got enough info on who you're killing, who their allies are, and what betrayals to fake.

I mean if the DM played ball you actually create so much chaos Asmodeus had to put his plans on hold to sort things out, calling his chief minions (one of whom you assassinated and impersonated) to the very castle he keeps the artifact in. I mean it probably won't shake out that way but it would be fun.

Actually, since Planar Adaptation makes you look fiendish, you could just claim to be fiendish humanoids.


Dafydd wrote:
On a similar vein, hirelings. They make good guards, lookout, mules etc.

Sounds like a fun hiring process.


boring7,
looks like we need that banner + dim. anchor, I haven't found any other
anti-teleport-area yet, our druid will start some further book research.

Concerning damage reduction / epic:
does a +4 fauchard evil outsider bane count as +6 (vs evil outsiders) and thus as epic?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
MasTersTroke wrote:

damage reduction / epic:

does a +4 fauchard evil outsider bane count as +6 (vs evil outsiders) and thus as epic?

Yes. It raises the enhancement bonus, which is what counts. Although not if the +4 is from a greater magic weapon spell.

Dafydd wrote:
Maybe, but it does not say anywhere that 2 different bane properties do not stack unlike with elemental properties. In my home game, I would allow it as the weapon becomes highly deadly to 1 or 2 specific groups while gaining you the hatred of many groups.

It does actually, in the FAQ Here.

Could summon celestial monkeys or similar to throw the Holy Water.

Grand Lodge

Majuba wrote:
Dafydd wrote:
Maybe, but it does not say anywhere that 2 different bane properties do not stack unlike with elemental properties. In my home game, I would allow it as the weapon becomes highly deadly to 1 or 2 specific groups while gaining you the hatred of many groups.

It does actually, in the FAQ Here.

Sad day. I mean, I understand why it wouldn't but still. Like, the fighter weapon group example, if you are using the sword/axe like a sword, you should not also get the bonus for axe skills.

Think I will keep it stacking in my home game, you are gaining the hatred of like 1/3 the multiverse using a Bane evil+lawful outsider weapon after all.

If you are level 17, you are higher level then some rulers on the material plane. You "should" have access to a number of wanna be heros who would follow you into the depths of hell. Also, having an army of servants makes you look more like a VID (very important devil) if you wanna go the "hide in plain sight" route.


Dafydd wrote:


If you are level 17, you are higher level then some rulers on the material plane. You "should" have access to a number of wanna be heros who would follow you into the depths of hell. Also, having an army of servants makes you look more like a VID (very important devil) if you wanna go the "hide in plain sight" route.

Taking some cannon fodder with us? Not our style...

And there's only one of us with a good bluff skill, so we better try to be stealthy than going the VID route.


AkaKageWarrior wrote:
Dafydd wrote:


If you are level 17, you are higher level then some rulers on the material plane. You "should" have access to a number of wanna be heros who would follow you into the depths of hell. Also, having an army of servants makes you look more like a VID (very important devil) if you wanna go the "hide in plain sight" route.

Taking some cannon fodder with us? Not our style...

And there's only one of us with a good bluff skill, so we better try to be stealthy than going the VID route.

One liar and a handful of destroyers can still BS their way along as a skilled hit squad working for another devil or the demons. I mean it's not your primary plan, but it makes a good backup.


boring7 wrote:


One liar and a handful of destroyers can still BS their way along as a skilled hit squad working for another devil or the demons. I mean it's not your primary plan, but it makes a good backup.

True!


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You should stop eating shellfish.


AkaKageWarrior wrote:

Holy water, really? At level 17?

Are there any rules how to handle large amounts of holy water?

A flask of holy water is a pint(bless water) and weighs 1 lb(equipment). If you use a dust of dryness filled with holy water it can hold up to 100 gallons, or 800 pints of the liquid, which is 1600d4 worth of damage assuming your DM allows it; however, the rules seem to be unclear how holy water works in vast quantities, nor does it really clarify what happens when you drop a splash based weapon onto someone instead of making an attack with it; dust of dryness says that it absorbs water, which might not include holy water; your DM may question where the 800 pints of holy water came from, let alone the 4000 lbs of silver used to make it; and many DMs may find it ridiculous that you're spending 20850 gp on a 1600d4 attack.

Even if your DM doesn't allow for such shenanigans in your game having an unseen servant or familiar with a bag of holding drop a few of them on top of an outsider still does a good amount of damage and can make or break a fight.

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