| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
First, if he hits with it, the magic is now gone. If he misses, there is a 50% chance it is destroyed.
Second, luck blade is a specific magic weapon. It requires GM approval to craft a luck blade that does not match exactly what is in the book. You can just tell him "luck shurikens don't exist." I also think the UE luck blade is in error, as the core book luck blade goes from 0-3 wishes, while UE goes 0, 1, 2, 4.
Other than that, yes, you can craft a shuriken for 1/50th the price of a normal magical weapon. But once you use it as a weapon, it breaks, so its not that strong. I would strongly suggest that you tell him the specific magic weapons exist only in the form listed in the books.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am almost certain you have to craft ammunition in bundles of 50. You can't craft a wand that has 1 charge, and you can't craft a single piece of ammunition, AFAIK.
well the thing is that he does not use the items as weapons, he carries them around as stat buffing kind of things. he only has the luck blade shuriken so he can have the luck spells and he also carries around things like a shuriken of continuous mage armor, a shuriken of continuous cats grace, a shuriken of continuous, ect. Would those kinds of items be considered legal?
I can't even...
EDIT: Sorry for the snarky post. No I'm pretty sure (Unless a RAW-wizard corrects me) that magical enhancements have to come from the specific list. None of what you describe even sounds halfway legal.
Those are all examples of custom magic items. They are some complicated rules for those.
The only prices that are reduced for magic ammunition are the weapon enhancement bonuses and special abilities. Any other magical effects are not reduced.
An example for the way to stat out something like that.
Continuous magic armor: spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 2,000. Mage armor is hour/level, so it will multiply by 1.5x. up to 3,000 now. Slotless, so double that. 6,000. Shuriken are 2sp for a single shuriken + 6,000 for the magic effect. Total 6000.2gp. Or 3,000.1gp for the crafting cost.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Regardless of the rest it's 25,000 GP per wish for the material component. You don't get to divide that by 50. Even if you allow this, He'd need all 50 Shuriken to use any of the wishes.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
well the thing is that he does not use the items as weapons, he carries them around as stat buffing kind of things. he only has the luck blade shuriken so he can have the luck spells and he also carries around things like a shuriken of continuous mage armor, a shuriken of continuous cats grace, a shuriken of continuous, ect. Would those kinds of items be considered legal?
The legality of it isn't important, it is very dishonest of your player to try to do this.
I would flatly tell him he is not allowed to craft items at all for the kind of abuse he is attempting and revoke all the magic items he has and give him the correct amount of wealth for his level and let him buy some items. But no more crafting for this guy who is blantalty abusing the rules.
He is basically creating a bunch of wondrous items which he is falsely calling ammunition in an attempt to get them cheap.
One thing that is certain that making shurikens of cat's grace don't exist, neither do ones that cast mage armor, or any other spell. If they do, you would price it as a normal wondrous item that casts that spell, not as ammunition. If you have a magic item that functions that same way as another existing magic item, it would cost at least as much as the other item. Usually more since it is filling another spot, and magic items are supposed to restrctied to certain spots for affects. For instance, body affecting powers go on belts. His shurikens aren't legal items.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, no, no, a thousand times, no.
You need to nip this in the bud fast.
First, even if you allow a luck blade shuriken, nothing reduces the cost of the wishes. So a 4-wish luck shuriken is going to cost over 100,000 gp, no matter how he tries to swing it.
Second, read the rules on custom magic item creation. Then read them again. Then reread the bit that says "compare to existing items that provide a similar benefit", and note that a single item that provides a +4 armour bonus to AC costs 16,000 gp. And he won't reduce that at all. Double that if it's not in an item slot. Yes, a "continuous mage armour shuriken" would cost over 32,000 gp. Even if it's only a single shuriken. Likewise, cat's grace, +4 to Dex, 16,000. Non-slot is 32,000. Even if it's a single shuriken.
He is hugely abusing your good nature and the magic item rules.
Kill it with fire. Destroy them all. Hard. As the GM, you are the one who gets to pick prices for custom items, not him.
well the thing is that he does not use the items as weapons, he carries them around as stat buffing kind of things. he only has the luck blade shuriken so he can have the luck spells and he also carries around things like a shuriken of continuous mage armor, a shuriken of continuous cats grace, a shuriken of continuous, ect. Would those kinds of items be considered legal?The legality of it isn't important, it is very dishonest of your player to try to do this.
I would flatly tell him he is not allowed to craft items at all for the kind of abuse he is attempting and revoke all the magic items he has and give him the correct amount of wealth for his level and let him buy some items. But no more crafting for this guy who is blantalty abusing the rules.
He is basically creating a bunch of wondrous items which he is falsely calling ammunition in an attempt to get them cheap.
One thing that is certain that making shurikens of cat's grace don't exist, neither do ones that cast mage armor, or any other spell. If they do, you would price it as a normal wondrous item that casts that spell, not as ammunition. If you have a magic item that functions that same way as another existing magic item, it would cost at least as much as the other item. Usually more since it is filling another spot, and magic items are supposed to restrctied to certain spots for affects. For instance, body affecting powers go on belts. His shurikens aren't legal items.
While I agree that if it was deliberate, it is very bad, it could also be due to ignorance and misreading the rules.
Like I said, only the costs for making magic weapons and magic weapon enhancements for ammunition are for 50 items. Any other magical effect applied to ammunition does not get any special price reduction.
Not at the prices he paid for them.
And continuous personal spells are almost always overpowered (such as shield).
Seriously, get rid of them. The game will be better for it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, he shouldn't. Not at the prices you are saying he paid for them. Get rid of all of them, and no custom magic items for him going forward. That is how I would handle it. Only things listed in the book.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any item not explicitly listed in the books requires GM approval to make - so you are allowed to veto any custom item at all. I'd do so in this case. Custom magic items can lead to bad places as you see and it's not a poor plan to simply ban them until you're more comfortable with the system as a GM.
Even if you allowed luck shuriken to exist, he's not getting around the 25000gp material component cost for each wish. So yeah, he could in theory cut the weapon part of the cost by making it ammo, but that's not how the cost for the wishes was calculated.
By my calculations, a +1 shuriken of 3 wishes would still run:
20*9*17+25000=28060 per wish
2000/50=40 for the shuriken magic
7 for the masterwork shuriken
So 84227gp for the whole shebang. But I still would be leery of allowing it. Wish is not for the faint of heart.
Also, now I have a new standard of abusing the custom item rules. Continuous spell effects were already pretty bad, but now we have ammunition dividing the already cheap cost by 50.
Book items only would be my response to the whole thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also just so you guys know the third continuous item i listed was a shuriken of continuous shield, he also has a shuriken of continuous aspect of the falcon.
Also sidenote: he did agree to not abuse these kinds of items as much anymore once i talked to him about it. I am just asking if he should be allowed to have them at all.
No. Not at all. Not at the prices he "paid" for them.
Yes, but the spells only effect the weapon. So the suriken has mage armor, not the character. If he wants it then it's a slotless item and would follow that pricing.
He's just wanting to break the rules, and he'll use anything to make is seem like he has a valid argument. All the GM's I've seen don't allow those rules, and if you wanted something specific you talk with the GM to see if he'll allow it. Just because there are rules for some things doesn't mean the rules are automatically allowed unrestricted.
I'd probably allow it, but he'd have to make the full bundle of 50, which would cost the same amount as a single luck blade. He would only get one set of wishes (not 50 sets) provided he had at least one of those shuriken remaining in his possession. He would benefit from the buffs for as long as he had at least one shuriken, though he could not grant anyone else the same buffs by passing out individual luck shuriken to allies (the buffs and the wishes follow the highest concentration of luck shuriken from the original batch).
Pretty much everyone posting before me is correct. This is just how I would handle it if a player approached me with such a ridiculous proposition (assuming simple ignorance on his part rather than an attempt to bypass the rules).
In this section, are 2 tables. Under the Weapons Table, Bonus Base Price column, there is a superscript 1.
1 For ammunition, this price is for 50 arrows, bolts, or bullets.
Under the Ranged Weapon Special Abilities Table, Base Price Modifier is another superscript 1.
1 Add to enhancement bonus on Table: Weapons to determine total market price.
So, for 50 +1 shurikens, you first need 50 (10gp) masterwork (300gp) shurikens. Then to make them +1 you add 2,000gp. So 50 +1 shurikens cost 2310gp. If you wanted to buy a single +1 shuriken, you can divide this by 50 and find they cost 46.2gp each.
Your player is taking this rule, and applying it to ALL magic effects on the shuriken, which is wrong. Only weapon bonus and ranged weapon bonus can be divided by 50 for ammunition. ANY other magical effect is full price.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know how he thinks he's calculating the price of a slaying arrow, but it's basically a single +1 arrow (so 1/50 the cost of a set of 50) with a use-activated full price casting of finger of death on it. The book example still pays full price for the spell so I don't know why your player thinks he wouldn't.
Ok, well i just talked to the player about this and he has agreed to stick to book-only magic items and weapons enchantments, but he is still saying that he believes that there is no official ruling against what he was doing.
He's wrong. He needs to re-read the magic item section, specifically the parts we called out.
He's very wrong.
For the luck shuriken:
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components.
Wish has a 25,000 gp spell component cost per wish. The "ammunition trick" is never going to reduce that.
For other items:
The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.
If that doesn't work, then you move onto the table with costs.
Pricing magic items isn't a science, it's an art form.
Compare these two items:
Rock of armour: This small pebble provides the bearer with a continuous +4 armour bonus to armour class, as the mage armour spell. Price: 32,000 gp
Shuriken of continuous mage armour: This shuriken provides the bearer with a continuous mage armour effect. As ammunition, if this shuriken is ever used to make an attack, it is destroyed. Price: 40 gp, 1 cp.
If the bearer never plans to use the shuriken as a weapon, these items do exactly the same thing.
The first has been costed using the actual rules, the second using 2,000 gp x 1 x 1 / 50. By allowing a player to price by cherry-picking from the table (having ignored the cost of armour bonus to AC bit and moving on to spell effects), and particularly if they never intend to use the shuriken as a weapon, you have just granted a 31,959.99 gp price reduction on an item.
The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.If that doesn't work, then you move onto the table with costs.
Pricing magic items isn't a science, it's an art form.
Compare these two items:
Rock of armour: This small pebble provides the bearer with a continuous +4 armour bonus to armour class, as the mage armour spell. Price: 32,000 gp
I have to disagree with you. Rock of armor (as continuous mage armor spell) would be Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 1 x Continuous 2,000 (x1.5) x Slotless (x2) = 6,000gp.
Mage armor doesn't give you an Armor Enhancement bonus, it gives you an armor bonus. The same kind that wearing armor gives you. It won't stack with worn armor.
Its as good as wearing chainmail, except you don't get the arcane spell failure chance. And its force, so it works against incorporeal attacks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Compare these two items:Rock of armour: This small pebble provides the bearer with a continuous +4 armour bonus to armour class, as the mage armour spell. Price: 32,000 gp
I have to disagree with you. Rock of armor (as continuous mage armor spell) would be Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 1 x Continuous 2,000 (x1.5) x Slotless (x2) = 6,000gp.
Mage armor doesn't give you an Armor Enhancement bonus, it gives you an armor bonus. The same kind that wearing armor gives you. It won't stack with worn armor.
Its as good as wearing chainmail, except you don't get the arcane spell failure chance. And its force, so it works against incorporeal attacks.
Huh? The rock of armor is exactly the same as a slotless set of +4 bracers of armor.
Both give you an armor bonus, both give you a force-based armor bonus (so are effective against incorporeal foes and touch attacks), et cetera.
Ergo, the rock of armor should cost no less than the +4 bracers and should probably cost substantially more because it's slotless, which is a benefit.
Huh? The rock of armor is exactly the same as a slotless set of +4 bracers of armor.
Both give you an armor bonus, both give you a force-based armor bonus (so are effective against incorporeal foes and touch attacks), et cetera.
Ergo, the rock of armor should cost no less than the +4 bracers and should probably cost substantially more because it's slotless, which is a benefit.
No, it isn't. The rock provides a constant "mage armor" effect. Not a constant "+4 armor".
An example which shows the difference is dispel magic.
To dispel the armor provided by the bracers of armor you must target the bracers themselves. If you succeed at the dispel check (DC18) then the armor is suppressed for 1d4 rounds after which it automatically resumes. If the creature itself was targeted by dispel magic, there is no chance the armor would ever be suppressed.
With the rock of constant mage armor, if the creature is a target of a dispel magic, the mage armor spell could be dispelled assuming the dispel check was at least a 12 (and there wasn't a stronger spell in effect on the creature). Alternately, the rock could be targeted by the dispel to suppress the effect for 1d4 rounds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, it isn't. The rock provides a constant "mage armor" effect. Not a constant "+4 armor".Huh? The rock of armor is exactly the same as a slotless set of +4 bracers of armor.
Both give you an armor bonus, both give you a force-based armor bonus (so are effective against incorporeal foes and touch attacks), et cetera.
Ergo, the rock of armor should cost no less than the +4 bracers and should probably cost substantially more because it's slotless, which is a benefit.
Except that mage armor IS a constant +4 armor effect. ("+4 armor bonus to AC.")
Except that mage armor IS a constant +4 armor effect. ("+4 armor bonus to AC.")No, it isn't. The rock provides a constant "mage armor" effect. Not a constant "+4 armor".Huh? The rock of armor is exactly the same as a slotless set of +4 bracers of armor.
Both give you an armor bonus, both give you a force-based armor bonus (so are effective against incorporeal foes and touch attacks), et cetera.
Ergo, the rock of armor should cost no less than the +4 bracers and should probably cost substantially more because it's slotless, which is a benefit.
Except, as I showed, it is much easier to dispel spell effects (constant mage armor) than it is to dispel actual magical armor effects (bracers of armor). Having constant mage armor is weaker than a constant +4 armor bonus, due to the ease of being dispelled or negated. Additionally, the bracers of armor are a force effect, which should increase their cost from the base cost of +4 armor.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Tarantula, I chose my words with malice a forethought. I made the rock for exactly the reasons OQ says: because it's basically a slotless set of bracers. I purposefully didn't put a caster level for the item, but it would be best to assume it's 7. The mention of mage armour was just to avoid having to write out the whole spiel about force effects.
The simple fact is, any magic item which provides an armour bonus continuously uses bonus squared times 1,000 gp as the price. All the other effects are completely secondary. It is not possible to get an item that continuously grants +4 armour bonus to AC for less than 16,000 gp. It doesn't matter about the spell it's based on. You price them like the closest item you can find, which is bracers of armour.
Apparently ultimate campaign has some better examples.
Example: Patrick's wizard wants to create bracers with a continuous mage armor ability, granting the wearer a +4 armor bonus to AC. The formula indicates this would cost 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica reminds him that bracers of armor +4 are priced at 16,000 gp and Patrick's bracers should have that price as well. Patrick agrees, and because he only has 2,000 gp to spend, he decides to spend 1,000 gp of that to craft bracers of armor +1 using the standard bracer prices.
This section would be good for the original poster to read through too.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/magicIt emCreation.html
|
The easiest fix is to tell your player that, due to the complexity of the rules and the requirement that you evaluate each item's price and adjust it, you're just not going to allow custom magic items any more.
OF course, this type of player will try to find some other way to exploit the system, but now you know to watch out for it :p
Note that Mage armor and Shield are not spells you can place on weapons or ammunition, either.
So the above is correct...what you have is a 'shuriken', really a 'star shaped piece of metal', enchanted as a slotless magic item, which would ALWAYS use first the 'equivalent item' rule, and then double that price for being slotless.
You could also point out to him the Bracers of Falcon's Aim, which did EXACTLY what he is trying to do, and were hastily errata'd from their pricing formula, since they provided twice the benefits of bracers of Archery at half or less the price.
For another point, I was part of a thread that raged over the proper pricing of a shield x/day item, which someone thought they could get away with for less then 1000 gp/usage. It's been a while, but I think we ended up with something like 4-6k gp/usage/day. The only thing keeping it that low was that it was a minutes/casting spell instead of 10 minutes or hour long like barkskin or mage armor.
==Aelryinth
Note that Mage armor and Shield are not spells you can place on weapons or ammunition, either.
So the above is correct...what you have is a 'shuriken', really a 'star shaped piece of metal', enchanted as a slotless magic item, which would ALWAYS use first the 'equivalent item' rule, and then double that price for being slotless.
You could also point out to him the Bracers of Falcon's Aim, which did EXACTLY what he is trying to do, and were hastily errata'd from their pricing formula, since they provided twice the benefits of bracers of Archery at half or less the price.
For another point, I was part of a thread that raged over the proper pricing of a shield x/day item, which someone thought they could get away with for less then 1000 gp/usage. It's been a while, but I think we ended up with something like 4-6k gp/usage/day. The only thing keeping it that low was that it was a minutes/casting spell instead of 10 minutes or hour long like barkskin or mage armor.
==Aelryinth
And yet, you could buy a wand of shield for 750gp at 50 charges. Or 15 gold/charge.
and you could also buy a wand of mage armor for the same price. The point is moot. If it was valid, then bracers of armor +4 would be 325 gp, not 16k.
===Aelryinth
and you could also buy a wand of mage armor for the same price. The point is moot. If it was valid, then bracers of armor +4 would be 325 gp, not 16k.
===Aelryinth
Your example was for a X/day item. Bracers of armor are a continuous effect.
x/day item are priced as if they were continuous, 5 uses/day = continuous, price by % of that number.
==Aelryinth
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
single luck blade shuriken with 4 wishes for a 50th of the cost of the normal luck blade. His justification for this is the rules for how the slaying arrows work.
You can only make them 50 at a time, for normal price and each one is effectively worth 1/50th. Plus they break on impact.
x/day item are priced as if they were continuous, 5 uses/day = continuous, price by % of that number.
==Aelryinth
And yet, wands have a fixed price, and if you use a wand as a 1/day item, then it lasts for 50 days.
which is not, as you know, a continuous magic item, so is moot?
Pricing for charged items and permanents is always different, and low level spells are often priced EXTREMELY favorably compared to their higher level counterparts.
i.e. there's a reason why CLW wands are the cheapest healing in the game.
==Aelryinth
which is not, as you know, a continuous magic item, so is moot?
Pricing for charged items and permanents is always different, and low level spells are often priced EXTREMELY favorably compared to their higher level counterparts.
i.e. there's a reason why CLW wands are the cheapest healing in the game.
==Aelryinth
You brought up X/day items which are also not continuous. You said it was broken to get shield 1/day for under 1,000gp. Yet, you can get shield 1/day for 50 days for 750gp via a wand. Neither has the enormous benefit that continuous items have, and there is no reason someone would want to make a 1/day shield item over a wand of shield.
|
|
Is the PC taking the feats to MAKE the magic items himself. Or is the PC relying on the OPEN MARKET to provide the items in question?
As DM, you decide what he can purchase, but more so, rare magic items like the shurikens your talking about will not be readily available in ANY town he visits. This is most certainly a custom ordered item, requiring both time and skill. The PC will likely have to quest to locate a smith capable of making the item, as well as locating the spell requirements and amassing the gold to create them. Seems like a good adventure plot for your PC.
I will also note that if the PC attempts to create the item himself, or purchase such an item from a lesser smith, it is very possible that they will fail in the magical item construction. Remember that if the magical item creation check fails by 5 or more, not only have you wasted the materials in not creating the intended item, but you also end up creating a cursed item.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
well the thing is that he does not use the items as weapons, he carries them around as stat buffing kind of things. he only has the luck blade shuriken so he can have the luck spells and he also carries around things like a shuriken of continuous mage armor, a shuriken of continuous cats grace, a shuriken of continuous, ect. Would those kinds of items be considered legal?Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.First, if he hits with it, the magic is now gone. If he misses, there is a 50% chance it is destroyed.
Second, luck blade is a specific magic weapon. It requires GM approval to craft a luck blade that does not match exactly what is in the book. You can just tell him "luck shurikens don't exist." I also think the UE luck blade is in error, as the core book luck blade goes from 0-3 wishes, while UE goes 0, 1, 2, 4.
Other than that, yes, you can craft a shuriken for 1/50th the price of a normal magical weapon. But once you use it as a weapon, it breaks, so its not that strong. I would strongly suggest that you tell him the specific magic weapons exist only in the form listed in the books.
No for several reasons. The most basic is that if he want to make magical weapons he is limited to the powers for magical weapons amge armor, cats grace, etc. aren't weapon powers.
Then there is this rule:
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
So continuous mage armor is priced as bracers of armor +4 and continuos cat grace as a belt of dexterity +4 (actually, double those prices as the "shuriken" don't use a body slot,
That rule is reiterated in the Ultimate campaign book.
Pricing New Items
The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.
|
|
And yet, wands have a fixed price, and if you use a wand as a 1/day item, then it lasts for 50 days.x/day item are priced as if they were continuous, 5 uses/day = continuous, price by % of that number.
==Aelryinth
For wands you are already capable to cast the spell (or at least have it on your spell list) or you have to invest pretty heavily in use magic device, And, as an added benefit, if you are using UMD, if you roll a natural 1 the wand would cease to function for you for 24 hours, regardless of the level your UMD skill.