Hey all, first time poster here. Also first time tabletop roleplayer, just started my first campaign a couple of weeks ago. It's been a lot of fun! :D
Anyways, I'm using a Summoner for our campaign. There's only 3 of us plus our GM (He doesn't have a pc). My friends are playing a duergar fighter and a tiefling wizard. We're currently level 9. What we seem to be running into problems with is healing. We don't have a cleric or paladin or any other healer, and we're having to come up with some slightly more creative workarounds.
My question is about the 2 Eidolon evolutions, Sacrifice and Fast Healing. For reference:
" - Sacrifice (Su) -
Source: Champions of Purity
An eidolon can sacrifice its own health to heal another creature.
As a standard action, the eidolon can sacrifice up to 2 hit points per Hit Die and then touch the target creature, thereby healing the creature for half the amount sacrificed."
" - Fast Healing (Su) -
Source: Advanced Player's Guide
An eidolon’s body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1. The eidolon heals 1 point of damage each round, just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost due to starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow the eidolon to regrow lost body parts (or to reattach severed parts). Fast healing functions as long as the eidolon is alive. This fast healing does not function when the eidolon is not on the same plane as its summoner. This healing can be increased by 1 per round for every 2 additional evolution points spent (maximum 5). The summoner must be at least 11th level before selecting this evolution."
So, it seems like I can basically make my eidolon able to heal a pc for half of the eidolon's hit dice worth of points every round, as long as it has hit points left to give. That's easy enough. The hard question is, does Fast healing also keep going out of combat? I mean, flavor wise it seems like it does, it's not like there's a keyword or activation ritual to trigger it. I'm working under the assumption that it's a passive ability that just keeps going.
If that's the case, and if sacrifice works the way I think it does, then in between combats can my eidolon basically just touch a PC, heal them to full, then regenerate all it's own hp back over time? It seems that all these action take a round to perform/trigger. If a round is 6 seconds, then it seems that I could basically be healing a pc for 11 HP per 6 seconds, and regenerating 1 HP per 6 seconds back into the eidolon. Given about an hour it looks like I can just heal the eidolon and an ally back to full.
So, does this work the way I think it does, or does fast healing only work in combat?
Thanks! :D
(I understand that I can't do this until level 11, but it's something I was hoping to get clarified before i get there)
Yes and yes. Fast Healing is always on. It's actually a very meh ability in combat...but godly outside of it. Even Fast Healing 1 will have most people topped up on health in about 10 minutes (that's 100 HP).
So your Eidolon can pretty much heal people for free, just with a cooldown. Pretty neat combo for something like an Angel themed Eidolon.
My eidolon was built around this exact combination in our RotRL campaign. Finally had an excuse to 'actually put good on my alignment sheet instead of neutral' for a change.
one thing to fix. you said it will heal half it's hd in points. that is not exactly right. the eidolon take 2 points of damage per hd (so a 9hd will tkae 18 dmage) and heal half of the taken damage (9 in that case) basicly it heals an amount that equls its hd.
Ok, I have another question now, if that's alright :D (You know what they say about the curse of helpfulness :P )
This is about the Rend Evolution. For reference:
" - Rend (Ex)
Source: Advanced Player's Guide
An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon’s Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution."
So does this mean that I just pick which claw attack I want, and use it's damage plus the strength modifier? I.E if I rolled 2 attacks and both of them hit, and one rolls 1 on a D8 and one rolls an 8, can I pick the 8, add the 1.5 times strength modifier and call it good as the additional damage? Or am I basically supposed to roll an entirely new claw attack if this triggers, then add the modifier and use that?
The other question is if I hit with 4 claws in a turn, do I get 2 triggers off this?
No. Rend only triggers once a round. They forgot to re-print that clause when they copy-pasted the Rend description from the Universal Monster Rules. Back in the playtest Jason Buhlman confirmed that wasn't intended but for some reason still didn't edit it.
Back to the first question, it's claw damage plus 1.5x Str. Basically if you have 1d8 damage claws, you get 1d8+1.5x Str plus whatever else. It's a separate roll.
"Rend (Ex) If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round. The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature's description. The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus."
Typically rend can only be used once. However, since I don't see that same limiting factor here I'd assume this is a specific case that would allow multiple rends. However, the newer version of this evolution seems to limit it a bit.
"Rend (Ex) An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon’s Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution."
So if you wanted to take this evolution, it wouldn't be beneficial for you until level 12 when you had access to 5 natural attacks (4 claws + 1 rend = 6 natural attacks if all 4 claws hit).
You roll separately for the additional damage die.
Well, now I have 2 very different replies here to look at O.o
Ryn, I read your earlier post about this very question. I guess it looks like I'm going to have to go with what my GM rules on this one, because I could see it both ways. Sure, the UMR says it can only hit once per round, but this isn't the UMR, this is a separate text. I'm gonna assume that he'll rule that it can only happen once per round, but it's pretty unclear according to the text which it is.
Iterman, I'll refer you to the difference in the 2 abilities about that extra attack thing. UMR says "This attack deals an additional amount of damage" as in, it's a separate attack and would take up an attack slot, I guess. On the new one though, "Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack"
So Imma go with the fact that it's extra damage only, not counting as an extra attack, seeing as it specifically doesn't call it an attack in any way. Therefore there wouldn't be any restrictions about number of attacks per round according to this text. At least until my GM shuts me down XD
Thanks for the info guys :D
Oh, another question. When people refer to RAW and RAI, what is that referring to?
RAW is Rules As Written. RAI is Rules As Interpreted.
In this particular case the rule as written was written to not have the one rend per round action. Jason Bulmahn has indicated that this is a mistake and that one rend per round is still the limit. Even if you have a 4 armed 4 clawed eidolon that can rend on a single claw strike instead of 2, the limit is still just the one rend per round...
It is a completely separate damage roll, but it is not a completely separate strike that requires its own strike roll. The rend is indeed an *extra* roll of the claw damage dice plus the 1.5 strength bonus. Ostensibly you could choose which claw got the bonus to damage in the event that you're attempting to overcome damage resistance... I could see a gm ruling that the rend damage was split evenly between the 2 clawstrikes... I could also see a gm restricting the extra damage specifically to the second clawstrike since thats the one that activated the rend... *shrug*... With my evolutionist summoner I simply avoided the argument by taking the 'rend with a single clawstrike' as soon as possible.
So if a claw did d6 and the eidolon had an 18 strength, 2 successuful clawstrikes would be
Pretty sure rend damage doesnt multiply on a critical hit, but if one of those clawstrikes confirmed a critical that's certainly another d6 to add to the pile, and in the ludicrous situation where both clawstrikes confirmed crits, you'd get the extra d6 for each, but the rend still wouldnt double.
Then we have to talk about whether a rend gets added damage from 'damage enhancements'... say your eidolon has an amulet of mighty fists with 'holy' on it...
when the holy damage bonus is applicable, thats a d6+4 claw with 2d6 holy on it, a second strike for d6+4+2d6 holy on it... then a rend that since its not a separate attack roll only does the d6+6... I'm pretty sure the rend itself, since it is not its own separate attack, does not get an additional 2d6 of holy.
Hey all, thanks again for the prompt and accurate replies, can't tell you how much it's been appreciated.
My GM did end up going with the RAW ruling for the rend, so I do now get a rend trigger every 2 claw attacks that connect. It's been kinda fun. But, I have 2 questions now. Erm... a question, and then a concern I suppose.
Question: With the Bleed ability evolution in regards to damage reduction; If I ignore the targets damage reduction, does that also mean that my bleed does as well? Also, if I don't ignore the damage reduction, does my bleed count as a seperate source of damage for triggering the targets damage reduction, or is the bleed just additional damage tacked on to the claw attacks? I.E if a creature has DR 10 adamantite and I don't count as having adamantite weapons, does my bleed (D6) just get completely ignored, or does it act as additional damage on my claw attack for calculating damage?
2nd, a concern of sorts. So I've never played an RPG like this before. I've played a ton of video games and card games, but no D&D or pathfinder or anything like this, so I'm assuming I'm doing something wrong here. But. Basically at level 13 my Eidolon is smashing CR 18+ creatures into bits, and it's kind of making my other party members a little ... irritated. We have a fighter with a +10 weapon and a Wizard with an Orb of Awesome (16D8 unmitigated damage once every 3 days) and I'm crushing them in the numbers in combat. I understand that's not what everything is about in this game, but it's been a big part of it and I don't want people to be irritated with me.
Anyways, Imma post my build down here and the numbers I'm getting off it. If there's any ways I could beg y'all to take a glance and let me know if I'm doing something wrong I'd appreciate it. By my calculations, given optimal circumstances and fully buffed I'm @ +50 to my attack rolls on all claw attacks, and (D8 +29)x4 damage on claws, plus rend triggers. I'm easily averaging over 100 pts of damage a round, sometimes upwards of 200. This seems a little off, so I wanted to get my math checked. Thanks!
Level 13 Eidolon:
Spoiler:
Total evolution points=23 (Base 17 plus 6 in feats)
Hit Points= 123
Minimum damage if all attacks hit (about a 90% so far) = 153
((1D8 [1] +24) x4 =100) + (1D8 [1] + 14 = 15) + (1d8+18 [19]x2 = 38)
Optimal (Previous numbers, +charging a large or larger evil outsider target and fully buffed) *Side note: These are regular numbers, for the record. Most of our opponents are evil outsiders, and the mage is putting Diviner's Fortune on the Eidolon once a round, so this isn't a pipe dream type thing, this happens about 75% of our fights.
AC = 49 (32 [Base]+4[Mage Armor]+5[Barkskin]+4[Shield]+2[Protection from Evil]+2[Eagle Soul]) +50% miss chance (Displacement)
Attacks: Includes Power Attack, Death From Above, Greater Heroism, Diviner's Fortune (From our level 13 Wizard) Death or Glory, Bull's Strength, Evolution Surge, Eagle Soul.
That just seems a little insane to me, and my party is starting to get a little disgruntled. Anyways, anything that I'm doing wrong please let me know. Also, thanks a ton for reading that entire wall o' text, I know it was a lot :D
You can't have +6 evo points from feats. You can only puck it 3times max at lvl 13
You have imp strength in the base stats but not in costs. You can do neither because it costs 4 evo points for large creature
Furious focus is only for the first attack each round, not for all attacks. That means -3 to all the other attacks
Death or glory is a SINGLE attack as a full round action. That means -4to your attacks
Diviners fortune needs a touch. Does your wizard fly besides the eidolon to touch it each round? Even for the first round, how does your eidolon flies up and charges down in the same round? I would think that's near impossible to do reliably.
To use death from above you need to go up and charge down. This means usable at most 1/2rounds, not each round.
Eagle soul, to give the sacred bonus changes to rounds/lvl. Do you have enough 5lvl spells to be spamming it for each and every encounter?
You calculated your str bonuses like 2-3 times in your buffed table.
You don't need multiattack for primary attacks
So fully buffed, you should expect:
10bab+12str+4gr heroism+2 eagle soul+4aomf-3 p attack
So +29nwith bite, +30 with claws, + 34/35 one the rounds you charge downwards, +3 to the first attack each round.
Damage is similarly wrong.
Pattack for 10bab is +6 not +8
So it is 1d8+4aomf+12str+6pa = 1d8+22
Agreed. Shouldnt even think about using death or glory unless your movement limits you to a single attack... With pounce that should never happen. If you had to choose between your 5 attacks and a single death or glory attack, the death or glory attack shouldnt even be a consideration...
Most gms would require you to take the improved damage: claws twice in order for it to apply to both your front and back claws since 'claws' is listed specifically as an attack type of 'pair' and improved damage is listed as improving a single 'attack type'.
Also agreed on evolutions so far. Can only possibly have 20 evolution points at this level.
Extra evolution... Prerequisites? Eidolon class feature.
With a prerequisite of the eidolon class feature, its a feat meant for the summoner to take. If your eidolon is spending its feats on extra evolution as well, thats not an option because eidolons 'dont have the eidolon class feature'... they are the eidolon.
Following that, Evolution surge spell = 4 points adding 2 strength is correct.
So we're talking about 14 from quadruped, 4 from the eidolon leveling table, 8 from large evolution, 6 from the strongbelt, 2 from the eidolon hitting levels 4 and 8, for an 'always on' strength of 34, turned 36 with an evolution surge.
Thats not bad. You figure... I'm doing 4 claws with a 12 damage from strength and 6 more from power attacking... thats 72 damage per round from the claws alone before I even roll the dice... Do I really need a bite attack and an amulet of mighty fists and a strongbelt, or could that stuff be better spent elsewhere...
The extra damage from a second rend per round is not your fault, but a gm that shrugs his shoulders and lets you have it is basically saying 'I want your party to hate what your doing so I don't have to feel bad about banning summoners in the future' Even if the gm lets you do it, for the sake of not being ludicrous and annoying your party you should simplly not take the second rend even if the gm lets you.
Can you build a pouncing biting rending eidolon with a strength of 40? Will your gm allow you to rend twice in one round? As Dr Ian Malcolm would say, sure you could. But did you ever stop to think about if you *should*. A huge part of being a summoner is about policing yourself. Clearly the fact that you posted here means you're feeling that sense of ludicrous power... The question isnt 'does the system let you'... its 'will the table enjoy you taking advantage of the system letting you.'
On the other hand this is the point where things can start to get pretty significant damage resistance, which means a lot when it applies to your eidolons attacks. With 5 attacks, a DR10 that works against this build will immediatly shave 50dpr off of what you can dish out.
you use magic evolution and +4 aomf to basically negate DR
also you CAN'T rend twice, even the creator of the class said in the first playtest that it was an omission not to include the normal rend limitation on the text.
basically having a routine of:
+39/+36/+36/+36/+36/+35
and doing
1d8+22/1d8+22/1d8+22/1d8+22/1d8+22/1d8+31
seems insane.
BUT
keep in mind that to do that:
your summoner has crappy HP because you can't wear a belt of con yourself
MORE IMPORTANTLY: YOUR PET'S WILL SUCKS SO A DOMINATE WILL SUCK
at 13lvl, you have: 1 5th lvl spell, let's say 2 from bonus attributes, so you can only do that 1time/day, certainly not in each combat
let's see what a barbarian with just gr heroism+ haste could do at that lvl:
18+3+6+9 for a 36raging str (+13)
bab: 13/8/3, bite +8
13 str
+4 abandon -4p attack
+6 from +4courageous, furious falchion (a +4aomf is 64k, a +6weap is 72k, quite similar)
+9 gr heroism
+4 for first attack (furious focus)
+1 weapon focus
+2 charge
so pretty much, unoptimized, he has:
+48/+44/+39/+34 bite +38
2d4+
19 str (6 for bite)
12 p attack (4for bite)
6 weapon (0 for bite)
4 moral (1from trait+3courageous)
you dont double the bonuses on a crit. only the weapon damage die rolls. 4d4+41
not entirely sure why we're comparing it to a 13th level barbarian though...
Agreed on RAW being no 2 rends per round per Bulmahn himself. If the gm still thinks more than one rend per round is raw then he hasn't read the errata.
you dont double the bonuses on a crit. only the weapon damage die rolls. 4d4+41
not entirely sure why we're comparing it to a 13th level barbarian though...
Agreed on RAW being no 2 rends per round per Bulmahn himself. If the gm still thinks more than one rend per round is raw then he hasn't read the errata.
you multiply the bonuses except precision damage.
Quote:
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. Lemme do a rework then with what I have, our Gm let me redo some of the illegal stuff I had taken and the Death or Glory lol.
But yeah, I explained the errata and that it was supposed to be 1 rend per turn, not 2, but our GM likes throwing really high CR stuff at us so he doesn't seem to mind. He also gave our fighter a +10 weapon @ level 12, and our wizard has an 18D8 orb that is unmitigated damage once every 3 days, and it's usually a little more than 3 days in between big fights. So we're very glass-cannon-ish, but it's been fun lol. Taking on the more simple CR 20 stuff at level 13 has been kinda funny.
Posting rework momentarily. I did level to 14, so the stats are gonna be kinda different than before.
@ Shroudb: I CAN do 2 rends a round, my GM said so ^.^ and technically, if you go by RAW, it does trigger for each 2 claws that hit. Also, I am usually fully buffed before each fight, and we don't have more than 2 big fights in a day at this point in the campaign. It's just the way our GM has been designing things right now, so I do almost always have full armor, Heroism, Stoneskin, the works up on the Eidolon. The 2 things you were right about is the charging every turn and the Diviner's fortune, those are just for round 1. But what's been happening is that we're usually getting a round to "prebuff" before we go into a fight (There's actual an in campaign reason for this, just don't want to type it all out here).
You gotta remember, I'm barely keeping up with our fighter and our wizard. Our wizard was given an adult Bronze Dragon as his familiar for goodness sakes, and our fighter somehow aquired a CR 9 wisp thing as a pet. Couple that with a +10 greataxe that the fighter is carrying that he got for free, the orb of massive damage the wizard got for free, it only seems fair that I get a round to get all my buffs going lol. I'm struggling just to keep up. And we haven't been going against too many spellcasters, it's been more big stompy stuff than anything. SO the dominate hasn't come into play. But I do get +4 morale bonus to my will save against enchantment effects, so I'd be @ a +11 to that save. Not great, but better than nothing lol.
Not using the bite, have 6 attacks allowed @ level 14 so just gave it 6 sets of claws. I think I actually got that one right, let me know if you see anything wrong. Thanks again for looking over all of this :D
bull strength doesnt stack with belt both are enchantment
you can't forgo the bite unfortunatly
you are stuck with it and it counting against your total allowed even if you dont use it
you can buy gore though for your 6th attack, so it will be 4xclaw+bite+gore
or, since you are so much frontloaded on the pounce stuff, go with rake (usually rake is when you pounce and when you START a round grappling, eidolon entry has it a bit messed up though so you have to talk with you gm about that.
if he says you need to be grappling, just take grab for your cloaws, 1/4 will probably grab so you get 2 extra attacks from rake, which should be a bit higher damage than standard gore each turn
Yes. Don't buy Large or Huge size. Save your points, buy Strength at the cheaper cost, and then cast Evolution Surge to grant Large size. You say you have time to buff, after all. The major disadvantage of this method is that you can never go Huge size (too expensive, and Evolution Surge doesn't stack), but that's not so bad actually.
Huh. That's a really, really good idea. I think I might do that :D
Other question, only peripherally related: Does an Anti-Magic Field negate the Amulet of Mighty Fists enhancement bonuses, along with all the buffs on my Eidolon? Assuming the buffs are already cast.
It negates ALL magical items on your eidolon (like your aomf and your belt)
It also suppress any spell on it
Your eidolon also can't use any of its spell like (you have none) and supernatural effects (like magic attacks evolution)
But all those don't matter since your eidolon will poof out of existance inside an antmagic field it IS a
Quote:
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
Summoned creature and antimagic:
Quote:
Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.
Well, that's unfortunate. So basically my entire class is useless because of one spell? That seems... balanced. Lol.
It's a bit much for its level, but it's a fairly self balancing spell. Without magic and magic items, most classes are significantly weakened. The classes that are weakened the most tend to be the same classes that can actually cast it.
Well, we just ran into an ancient red dragon, and it cast this spell. Now 80% of our damage and abilities are completely useless. The party has a Wizard, me (summoner) and a fighter, and we all have magic items boosting our stats. Without those items and without my eidolon or the wizard casting spells there's absolutely no way we can beat this thing. It just seems silly to have a spell that literally negates over half of the classes that exist in this game. If nothing magic can work, that takes away items, any spellcasters, healing, buffs... Like, 80% of the game is worthless. Seems... a bit silly that it exists, I guess.
An ancient red dragcon casting Antimagic Shell doesn't get much out of it. The shell is only 10' radius. Ask your DM which intersection the shell is centered at, and attack one of the (many) parts of the dragon that are sticking out.
"ANTIMAGIC FIELD
School abjuration; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines."
From what I can understand it's a 10' radius emanating out from all points of the dragon. Anything within 10 feet of it is in the field. Am I reading it wrong?
Rule wise spells originate always from grid intersections.
In case of emanations centered on creatures it gets a bit silly (look I have antimagic in my left toe lulz) so a lot of home groups play it as the whole creature is the point of emanation.
As for the ancient red dragon, it is a cr 19 creature, and one of the most deadly for a reason. Vs a lvl14 group it can easily become a tpk.
Antimagic in particular is a nasty spell but it has a few drawbacks, like p.e. a wizard casting it becomes useless, a cleric much less useful and etc. A dragon though can still smash your face even without magic.
As for a spell making you useless, welcome to high lvl magic. You can now feel like the fighter targeted with a maze^^
Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
Note the bold part.
You are applying claws to legs three times. You can only do it once.
You would need to have 4 arms, along with your four legs, to get 3 sets of claws on a quadruped.
Not to mention you're over your attack limit by 1, as others have pointed out (you can't ignore the bite you get for free)
It says that claws can only be applied to limbs (legs) once. I'm assuming that's per evolution of the Limbs (legs) subtype. The quadraped comes with 2 sets already, then I added a 3rd set to allow for the 6 claws.
Thankfully my GM is allowing me to ignore that silly bite rule, I'm able to just use the 6 claws.
If that logic were true you could apply claws multiple times to the same set of arms. Rules as written and intended is that claws can only be on the feet once per eidolon.
And this is the real problem with eidolons seeming overpowered. So many rules that someone is bound to misinterpret them.
It says that claws can only be applied to limbs (legs) once. I'm assuming that's per evolution of the Limbs (legs) subtype. The quadraped comes with 2 sets already, then I added a 3rd set to allow for the 6 claws.
Thankfully my GM is allowing me to ignore that silly bite rule, I'm able to just use the 6 claws.
you cant use 3x claws evolution on a 3x legs evolution.
you can only have claws on ONE set of limbs (legs)
this is because you can only "claw" with the front legs.
"claw" attacks with the back legs are called rake (which is a different evolution altoghether)
so for claws x6 you need 2x pair of hands and 1 x pair of legs, and the other pair of legs is without attacks.
