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SR is there for the same reason it affects psionics, for balance reasons. I would highly suggest not removing SR.
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Not everything is about balance. Or SHOULD be about Balance.
Sometimes the world is "sh*t" and bad stuff happens. Sometimes there are things you just can;t deal with under a normal circumstance.
Psychic power, ISN'T spell power. That's kinda the point.
You make it rare, and unique.
It needs to be different from Magic. Removing Spell Resistance from the equation goes a long way to doing that. Showing that it is, not, magic.
It is psychic.
Seconded that it is a bad idea to remove SR. This is still a game, and some choices should be better than others on some ways. Despite how YOU think about it, mechanically balance is a "thing" as they need to consider how it works in organized play and such.
Removing SR makes it vastly superior to spells. Not in a "sometimes you are unlucky way" but in a "every instance of this is better way" and that isn't good for the game as a whole. "Rare" is meaningless in a vacuum, in each setting this can be as rare or common as the setting makes it. That isn't a "mechanical" system limitation, like you are proposing. ANY "special" ability can be fluffed as "rare" or "unique" be it spells or psychic abilities or what have you. The mechanics don't make it "rare", your desire to see it that way in your game does. The mechanics still need to be balanced in regards to other existing abilities for when they aren't "rare" for other people's games who don't share your opinion on the subject.
Fluff or description of an ability makes it what it is. You could use two differing mechanics and call them both spells or psychic abilities. It doesn't matter as long as one isn't significantly better than the other so it is always "the" choice to make. The new mechanics are still "special powers" above and beyond normal physical damage such as smacking you over the head with a club. That is what "spell resistance" protects against, the supernatural, not the mundane (in the general sense not system mechanical). Whether it be spells or psychic ability, SR is the defense versus "caster" types as a whole.
The "fluff" makes it different than magic, it doesn't need this mechanical change to make that obvious distinction more obvious.
Removing SR on psychic powers is a terrible idea, sorry. Skylancer summed it up well.
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Doesn't SR stand for spychic resistance? Some just made a typo is all.
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Third Edition D&D Psionics books presented two options for Psionics, namely 'Psionics is the Same as Magic', and 'Psionics Is Different', explained what would happen to your game under each option, and gave a very good explanation of why the former was the preferred option.
Not to pile on, but yeah, I'd strongly recommend leaving in spell resistance for home games (I'm fairly certain Paizo will leave it in the book.) Take it from someone that ran/liked 3.x psionics as both GM and a player, and really likes Dreamscarred's psionics: spell resistance should equal power/psionic/psychic resistance. Treating it like a separate thing that bypasses/ignores SR is too dang much work and a pain-in-the-butt for everyone involved.
If you want to go the balance route, if you take out spell resistance hindering psychic magic, the abilities are going to have to be reduced to the point they are terrible and no one wants to take them.
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What exactly in the Case of the Psychic is the point then? Why not just lump the "spells" they get into a Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, and have a "Psychic/Wizard Sorcerer" who uses those things instead as an option for the already existing class? Certainly no need to create a new class in that case now is there?
What is the fundamental difference we are getting here with this class? What merits it as more than about a page of text as an optional Wizard/Sorcerer Archetype?
Well, that's the $64,000 question, isn't it?
You're probably not alone in wondering that, given that most playtesters are focussing on other classes.If you want to influence the upcoming release, post in the specific threads for that class.
However, it's unlikely they'll drop the class, given that it's been announced as 16% of the book, so the best you can probably hope for is to influence the way it's presented.
Try looking over the class again, take note of any ways it specifically differs from Wiz/Sor, and build a sample PC around those differences.
Run it through some sample encounters and hazards, that can be recognized and understood by other posters, such as from an Adventure Path. This avoids any appearance of bias, such as deliberately choosing situations that play to the class' strengths or weaknesses.
Then post the results, being honest about whether the specific class rules affected the ability to handle the obstacles, compared to a Wiz/Sor of the same level.
If you can, show how it can carry out the same design goals, but for reduced pagecount, if it's given access to an existing list. Or part of a list, such as a specific school or descriptor.
Editors love hearing they can reduce pagecount.
Presented that way, it looks like you're trying to do them a favor, rather than dismissing the work that's been done.
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In previous editions of the D&D, when Psychic magic was its own separate system that didn't intersect with standard magic at all it was horribly overpowered unless everyone was using it.
Being able to ignore the standard defenses means that they would have to tone down the effectiveness of everything to the point where it probably wouldn't feel good anymore to use them, or they'd run into the same problems that older editions have where if you ran across a Psychic and weren't one yourself, you were hosed.
First Edition Psionics were hilariously bad.
Not only did it destroy non-psionic defences, but it was allowed to run ten times faster than normal combat! All powers took 6-second 'segments' to manifest.
Everyone else was stuck in 1-minute rounds, so declaring they were walking across the room to engage opponents, would be like treading molasses.
The psionic could have killed everyone in the room, in consecutive single combat duels, before anyone had drawn a weapon.
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Doesn't SR stand for spychic resistance? Some just made a typo is all.
I think it stands for synaptic resistance
Definition: the ease or difficulty with which a nerve impulse can cross a synapse.
Wiki: In the nervous system, a synapse is a structure that permits a neuron (or nerve cell) to pass an electrical or chemical signal to another cell (neural or otherwise). Santiago Ramón y Cajal proposed that neurons are not continuous throughout the body, yet still communicate with each other, an idea known as the neuron doctrine.
Synaptic resistance fits perfectly against psychic powers, which would try to pass foreign signals into the host to confuse its nervous system and/or motor functions no? :)
Therefore, demons and other high SR outsiders, or dragons, are "hardwired" throughout their bodies, i.e. they have continuous "long" neurons and very few synapses, or their synapses use a chemical transfer medium that is totally foreign and alien to psychic powers, which have evolved to affect a very limited number of synapse types, so in effect, the SR of these creatures also protect against foreign nerve impulses, for the same reasons it is so difficult for them to be affected by spells.
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Arcane is magic of reality
Divine is magic of the gods
Psychic is magic of the inner self
The former two have spell resistance, despite their different sources. I don't see why Psychic magic has to have a special resistance when Divine magic doesn't. There isn't a Faith Resistance stat, so I don't see the reason why there should be a Psychic Resistance stat. I'm a fan of psionics, but I don't see any need for it to be different than Arcane and Divine magic, nor do I feel it should be superior to Arcane or Divine magic.
I think the disconnect here is you are seeing this Psychic magic as not spells, but the intent that Paizo has for Occult Adventures is that these psychic abilities are spells. At this point, it is a matter of taste and something that isn't going to be changed in the playtest. If you are looking for something different, there is still DSP's Psionics which can certain fit the bill for what you are looking for.
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Simplest easy answers.
It would seriously shift the balance of psychic casters over every other part of the game.
It would require an update of the bestiaries.
There would be a revolt in PFS.
There could very well be an additional type of magic beyond this and it adds a layer of difficulty in the game that is unneeded.
Even shorter easy answer.
It's a bad idea. (Sorry, I'm sure you are a awesome person, but that's how I see it.)
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What is the value gained from implementing a separate Psychic Resistance?
None whatsoever. You end up with an annoying sidebar for every monster's stat block like they did in 1st Edition D&D... every balor, pit fiend, elminsters and black staves had a humongous psionic points reserve and "iron tower" ratings just to prevent cheesed out prionic PCs to lay them flat in one round (because one regular round of 1 minute meant ten 6 seconds rounds of psionics).
Psionics SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK if magic or spell resistance cannot interact with it.
Also, questions:
Q1: why is this man flying? A: magic
Q2: why is this woman shooting fireballs? A: magic
(i.e. seemingly, unexplained phenomenon can always be explained by "it's magic")
So why, do you ask, a magic creature or magic user can protect itself against science-based psionics? A: magic!
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Arcane is magic of reality
Divine is magic of the gods
Psychic is magic of the inner selfMagic, is magic. The source of where it comes from is the issue with magic. Some magic is granted to you (Clerics) Some people learn how to manipulate its flows and channel it into spells (Wizards), and some people internalize it into powers they can project (Sorcerers).
Psychic Energy is, Psychic, it shouldn't be magic. Otherwise a Psychic is nothing but a trumped up archetype of a Sorcerer, they are just channeling it differently, through things like emotions.
On a side note entirely: Gary Gygax mention, Psionic is entirely the wrong term and is being misused by the games industry at large. Psionics actually is the use of machinery to cause and use mental powers. He goes into a massively long diatribe on it (which he is typical of doing) in His Dangerous Journeys game setting.
Psychic shouldn't be magic according to you, not the rest of us psionics fans. Paizo is going with a different take where psychic powers are magic. They are using a classic approach via mysticism, ki and chakra, and esotericism as the sources, rather than the Psionics. They have already said that the classes in Occult Adventures will be magic and honestly, from a game design point of view, it makes sense to have the three big magics having similar mechanics that are balanced with each other. The idea that psionics should be more powerful, rare, and break SR is something I can't get behind. You may want psychics to be rare, but what about those that want a more balanced quantity of casters to psychics, or simple more psionics than mages and priests? We can't exactly do that because psychics have been made more unbalancing and clearly the better choice. That's why I'm more for psychics being balanced with the other options in Pathfinder. Making it overpowered but rare is poor game design.
Psionics is magic, just a magic of the mind, the several subtle bodies, and other esoteric things (ki, chakra, prana, the ethereal plane). This is made to appeal to a broader audience while allowing a place for DSP's psionics. Your version is too niche, unbalanced, and poor game design honestly. I'd prefer Paizo stick with what they are doing and allow DMs to decide what to do about SR.
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The impact comes in fluff and the feeling of the game.
Unless i miss my guess.. the Robots in the Technology guide are vastly different form of things than Elementals called or summoned, and Golem's made by magic. Even if they end results can seem more or less the same.
When the Pdychic starts churning out Psychic powers, and the Magic caster with Arcane sight is stumped as to what the hell is going on (and vice versa) Both are going to be far more curious, and/or wary, about the other.
It's the clashing of two realms of thought that are, and should be, utterly alien to one another.
Even if mechanically speaking the major differences are the resistance type, and the components, what they represent and how they show themselves can be totally different.
The two of them shouldn't have similar ways of resisting each other, and that SHOULD be a worry between the two types of power, once they are aware of each other.
They both more or less use the same mechanics, but the methods of resisting should be different as the two should be sourced from entirely different forms of power.
Except that in the game world that Paizo has created, they didn't occur in environments so far removed that they wouldn't be recognized. These powers aren't just spontaneously appearing. The spell lists overlap. There just might be a skill called Knowledge: Psychic but chances are that's just about the biggest difference will occur. Spellcraft will still be more than likely used to counterspell psychic spells.
But lets take a totally different tack on this discussion.
How on earth does a mechanic that gets so very little use make the flavor come alive in Pathfinder.
As it stands now, everyone still gets saving throws for any type of magic thrown at them unless it specifically mentions it in the spell. Occasionally a creature or a player has Spell Resistance. More times than not all that means that you have to make an additional "to hit" roll. It's not very flavorful as it works currently. Sure we can dress it up. The game master can take the opportunity to make the description come alive, but in reality it's glossed over pretty quick and more times than not players get annoyed when their spells fizzle.
But lets add psychic resistance to the mix. I have a monster who has PR 18 but no SR. So my Wizard, Cleric and Magus are blasting this thing to bits but my Psychic is hating life because his spells aren't getting through. Or we can flip the script. Now one guy is loving life, but the rest of the players are hating it because the spotlight isn't shared.
It sucks standing on the sideline when your character is marginalized. There are assumptions that are made into the game to so people can make characters that are effective. Your proposal goes in a direction that would upset a lot of players.
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So, a side question. How are psychic/psionic powers not magic? They are functionally, pragmatically magic.
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As it stands now, everyone still gets saving throws for any type of magic thrown at them unless it specifically mentions it in the spell.... everyone gets some kind of "Save", be it AC, CMD, or an outright save, against something thrown at them. Not just for magic. Some are rolled in response. some are static, "unless it specifically mentions it in the (specifica ability)"
Not really sure where your comment is meant to be going there.
But lets add psychic resistance to the mix. I have a monster who has PR 18 but no SR. So my Wizard, Cleric and Magus are blasting this thing to bits but my Psychic is hating life because his spells aren't getting through. Or we can flip the script. Now one guy is loving life, but the rest of the players are hating it because the spotlight isn't shared.Kinda like saying a Creature with a High SR entirely marginalizes a magic user and side lines him, while the melee types get to to have all the fun.
If your PC hits a SR wall (High SR he just can't seem to beat) with his spells, and suddenly just gives up, then that's something you as a player are doing wrong.
It sucks standing on the sideline when your character is marginalized. There are assumptions that are made into the game to so people can make characters that are effective. Your proposal goes in a direction that would upset a lot of players.I'm pretty sure a spellcaster being able to hit some creature that isn't solid enough to be smacked with a sword upsets melee players too.
Sometimes you run into odd things that make the way you are used to doing things. ineffective, and you have to rethink your strategy, and come at the situation with a different approach.
OK, you're totally making my point her. Already you have confused the issue by mixing up terms which is what most GMs are trying to avoid. Adding SR and PR is only going to make it worse.
Adding one more thing that players can't do is only going to frustrate players and honestly as a GM I already have enough of those tricks up my sleeve. It's not all that special.
You started out making a point about making something flavorful. Most flavorful options are given to the players to do something with. You haven't come up with a way to do that. Your just talking about 'crunch", and it's not fun. Players want things that work, not things that make things not work.
Show me the fun. Where is the fun?
I like the idea that Psychic spells need emotion and concentration. I can see the fun of explaining to your GM how you are mustering up the forces up in your person to do the things your going to do. But PR is just, "Eh that stuff doesn't work on me."
It's anti-psychic. What's the fun in that?
PR would be either an enormous change--errata hunting on existing monsters to grant a bunch of them PR--or a backdoor version of "no SR at all for psychics", which has severe ramifications for the game. Play it that way if you like. Let us know how it turns out.
Those changes are generally not something on the order of affecting every single monster ever printed.
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Those changes are generally not something on the order of affecting every single monster ever printed.
This. Unless you want nothing to have PR except new material, which I suspect is your intention.
As to why this works like magic: Dude. It's called "psychic magic". Of course it's magic!
By the premises of that argument, psychic magic should be an NPC/Monster item only, not a way to create an obscenely powered up PC.Not everything is about balance. Or SHOULD be about Balance.
Sometimes the world is "sh*t" and bad stuff happens. Sometimes there are things you just can;t deal with under a normal circumstance.
Psychic power, ISN'T spell power. That's kinda the point.
You make it rare, and unique.
It needs to be different from Magic. Removing Spell Resistance from the equation goes a long way to doing that. Showing that it is, not, magic.
It is psychic.
Agreed. This comes a bit too close to the realm of "super special snowflake" territory for my tastes.
Agreed. This comes a bit too close to the realm of "super special snowflake" territory for my tastes.
By the premises of that argument, psychic magic should be an NPC/Monster item only, not a way to create an obscenely powered up PC.
Really, adding PR and making SR not work on Psychic powers isn't that much of a power change. It's one somewhat rare defensive stat that isn't always there, any more than SR is.
That hardly creates an over powered “special snowflake.” That's a knee jerk over reaction.
Let me ask you this: Would you support dividing Spell Resistance into Arcane Resistance, Divine Resistance, and Psychic Resistance?No need with magic. Divine or Arcane. The magic itself is the same. It's HOW the magic is attained that is different. Both manipulate the same essential power.
Wizards learn to do so on their own via their training. Clerics do so by asking a god to grant it to them directly. Sorcerers are born with the intrinsic knowledge how to do so from their parentage.
Psychic magic.. should not have the word Magic in it at all. It should just be Psychic power. Otherwise its really not “psychic” it's just another form of magical manipulation which is what Sorcerers do.
The frank feeling is, this is nothing more than another magic casting class, and not a mental energy type thing, which they could have done so much more, something uniquely different with.
And it disappoints me.
If they were going to delve into the realm of being Psychic; they should have kept it, Psychic. Now? It's just more of the over blown and bloated standard magic system.
It was less for PR and more in response to the need for psychic magic to be rare, powerful, and unbalanced. And there's really no reason to add PR in the game when, by flavor, psychic magic is magic and has existed in Paizo's setting since the beginning as magic. If you read any of James Jacob's posts about psionics, he has said countless times that they will be a form of magic, like arcane and divine. And I agree with him. I don't need it to be rare and more mystical and better than arcane and divine magic. I don't need my psionics to be superior than the other two. I'm fine with it being common in the world, perhaps moreso in certain settings over other, but more common nonetheless. For me, psionics has always been and always will be magic. And I like the sources they are using for psychic magic, with Seven Rays of God, the Subtle Bodies, and late 19th/early 20th mysticism as its main sources of inspiration.
Answer me this. Why should psychic magic be rare and unbalanced? What makes psionics not magic?
If you want psionics, then you can use DSP's version without the magic transparency. It already exists there, right for the taking. But going out of one's way to make psionics completely different from other magic just for the sake of making it different feels like poor game design and frankly, a waste of development time that could be used on more important aspects of the playtest.
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You also don't seem too enthusiastic about Paizo's choices on this book, which has been stated already a few times, meant to be "psychic" ala SP abilities and following the typical spell slot that is already used in game. AKA magic.
You can view it as a missed opportunity, but the reality is a long time ago they was discussion about psionics and they kept quiet about it as they knew no matter what the answer was, it wasn't going to be well receipted by a good portion of the players. Psionics tends to have two very distinct camps, either pro or against. They decided they weren't going to implement a new rule set that would further complicate the game and DSP stepped up to take advantage of it.
What makes you think if they weren't going to do that, that they would complicate the game with an all new rule set for alternate psychic abilities and Psychic Resistance that doesn't mesh with the current in game Spell Resistance? But does mesh with the spell slots and SP abilities? It makes absolutely no sense to do so.
The reality is, what you want isn't going to happen no matter what you say or lobby with. Accept it and move on. I honestly don't even know why this discussion is still going on (not even trying to be a jerk about that).
Also, it is your loss if you don't want to use DSP's material. Ultimate Psionics rivals pretty much anything Paizo puts out in terms of quality and balance (if not MORE balanced in some cases). If the material fits the bill for what you are looking for, you should at least take a look at it. And seeing as it is free to do so at d20srd... Well no reason not to right?
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@ Gwiber - Psychic Spells are still Spells. They are not a completely different type of energy as psionics were, only the source of the power is different. Thus there is full transparency from the beginning, including things like SR and Spellcraft.
You are free to do as you like in your home games, obviously, but this is not something that needs to be imposed on the system as a whole. SR serves a purpose and Psychic Magic should not be exempt.