JoeJ |
gamer-printer wrote:Feats like Spring Attack are way overpowered without feat taxes.No they are not. All you need to do is set a BAB or other level-based requirement. Characters don't get it early, and they have to invest their limited resources into it when they do get access to it. (Every feat you take cuts you off from taking other feats. If it has a prerequisite of BAB +16, it takes up one of your 16th level or higher feat slots, hedging out other high level feats you could have taken.)
If I were rewriting the game, no feat would be required as a prerequisite for any other. I would also remove from the list all feats that are only useful for one class. Anything that specific should be a class feature, not a feat.
Marroar Gellantara |
Pummeling charge only works on unarmed strikes.
Also, no pre reqs outside of BaB is kind of dumb, Steel Soul wont do anything for you since you don't have Hardy. Also, improved second chance doesn't do anything because you don't have second chance.
(assume feats integrate previous feat effects when needed)
gnomersy |
CWheezy wrote:Pummeling charge only works on unarmed strikes.
Also, no pre reqs outside of BaB is kind of dumb, Steel Soul wont do anything for you since you don't have Hardy. Also, improved second chance doesn't do anything because you don't have second chance.
Marroar Gellantara wrote:(assume feats integrate previous feat effects when needed)
Hardy still isn't a feat. And lets compare that to an average 20th level caster for a baseline?
Orfamay Quest |
Feats like Spring Attack are way overpowered without feat taxes.
Here's a challenge for you. Find four feats that are as good or better than a 4th level spell. Then find any 4th level spell which requires that you permanently take some inferior spells to be able to use it. And when you've done that, explain why requiring characters take things that are poor so that can get something that isn't even particularly great at high levels is a good idea.
@gamer-printer: Are you suggesting that Spring Attack is better than a 4th level spell?
If offered a straight-up trade: Spring Attack or a feat that lets me use greater invisibility as a spell-like ability, I'd take the SLA. But it's not even a straight-up trade, since you can't get Spring Attack without a shedload of useless feats.
gamer-printer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@gamerprinter: are you suggesting that spring attack is better than a 4th level spell?
No, and nowhere in my post is there anything about spells - I don't know where you're getting that. Other people are talking about spells, I'm only talking about feats - so don't link my post with others that aren't a part of my conversation. In my mind there is no connection nor equivalency between feats and spells - they are apples and oranges.
Since, as a player, I primarily only run martials. So trade a feat for a spell I can't cast is no advantage for me.
Kirth Gersen |
What if Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack were all equally good?
Better yet, what if they were a single feat?
Orfamay Quest |
Orfamay Quest wrote:@gamerprinter: are you suggesting that spring attack is better than a 4th level spell?No, and nowhere in my post is there anything about spells - I don't know where you're getting that.
Well, you said that "Spring Attack was way overpowered without feat taxes." I'm vaguely wondering "way overpowered" compared to what? As far as I can tell, it's only way overpowered compared to features that are entirely useless, since Spring Attack is merely mostly useless.
gamer-printer |
gamer-printer wrote:Well, you said that "Spring Attack was way overpowered without feat taxes." I'm vaguely wondering "way overpowered" compared to what? As far as I can tell, it's only way overpowered compared to features that are entirely useless, since Spring Attack is merely mostly useless.Orfamay Quest wrote:@gamerprinter: are you suggesting that spring attack is better than a 4th level spell?No, and nowhere in my post is there anything about spells - I don't know where you're getting that.
Compared to other feats that don't have prerequisites. Again, I'm only talking feats here. I've run a monk that won several major encounters when the other PCs failed relying solely on spring attack. They might have been corner case issues, but spring attack worked fine for my monk. I don't see it as useless. Perhaps your games play differently.
Chengar Qordath |
Spring attack isn't great for every character build, but situatially and with certain builds, it's pretty darned powerful.
Which seems to me like a fine place for a feat to occupy, conceptually. Not good for every character, but it can be useful if your character is built for it.
Freesword |
All I said was that I like the option of feat taxes on powerful feats as a design tool.
The certainly are a design tool - a tool designed to force players to take feats designed around low levels that lose their worth at mid to high levels (in other words, force players to take poorly designed feats).
Even feats that have a natural progression are better consolidated into one feat that scales with level.
The only case where feat prerequisites make sense is when you have a natural progression that branches into divergent paths similar to how critical focus branches into the various critical feats.
Well designed feats should stand up on their own and remain relevant throughout the progression of the character.