New idea: Special Hardcore-Bane-card-pack with increased difficulty for experienced players


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion

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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Myfly wrote:
The thing is I consume all PACG.... And i do not want to buy the same crossbow as in Rotr and Ss again in a new paper box called boon box.

Then don't?? And who ever said that a boon expansion would just have re-prints of the same boons that have been in all of the games so far? There are so many different weapons and weapon special abilities in the Pathfinder world. You could have a Goblinbane Repeating Heavy Crossbow +2. A Guardian Battleaxe +1. There is no need at all to repeat many, if any, boons.

Myfly wrote:
If the are design mistakes in the class decks then there must be a customer friendly solution such buy one update class pack which holds all upated class deck cards and the buyer will get a hardcore bane card deck for free ...

Again, it's not an issue of there being design mistakes or not. The class decks are, in general, very well done. They are a very elegant way to make organized play possible with the Pathfinder Card game. This is an issue of versatility, not functionality.


There is a limited number of boons, on my part i am willing to WAIT until the Guardian Battle Axe +2 will be released in an upcoming adventure path...
And if it is just an issue of versatlity and not functionalit so I CAN WAIT.
Soon there will be with WotR more boons available,...

Then if desired paizo could release from adv path to adv path a free pdf list which "old" boons would could be optionally added for those people who like to have a bigger optional boon base for their class deck. This pdf-list could be modified for each new adv path to even provide more variance/versatility....

BUT now back to my suggested "hardcore bane for base set game play and OP bane cards" 110-cards pack, what is THIS thread ABOUT.
I definetly see chance for this, as you said, not for functionality but more for an issue of versatility :-)))))

Let the dark evil banes loose in the USA, they are at least slaughtered when they reach Europe by some mighty Heroes which are brave enough ;-) to face them HA HA ....
We Europeans finally save the PF world from the ultimate dark evil spreading ;-)))

Are YOU BRAVE enough?


Precisely what type of hardcore bane do you have in mind? I think that the OP difficulty is good - we have house ruled some hardcore difficulty in our latest playthrough of RotR. This also works well.

I am unsure what a hardcore bane looks like to you?

Without that knowledge how can we say this idea seems appropriate, over the top in terms of difficulty?

Are you talking a basic skeleton with a 14 check to defeat?

A siren that needs 14 to defeat?

Barriers that wipe out hands when you fail the check?

Share you thoughts on a hardcore bane.

gk


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Okay, I'm going to stop talking about our boon deck ideas because this is a thread about your idea and whenever you try to talk about what we want from boon expansions you seem to completely misunderstand or misrepresent the goals of such a product. Not to mention try to suggest an alternative that is completely impractical and problematic.... Okay, I'm done.

Now, as far as the bane deck goes, no, it has noting to do with adding versatility to organized play. All that it would succeed at is adding a little more variety, if done right. And yes, versatility and variety are different. The designers have already proven that they have access to an unlimited amount of potential versatility with the format used for the organized play system. They can utilize the weekly PDFs any way they want. At minimum they have a full letter sized piece of paper to alter the banes of the scenario. They can increase the difficulty of the banes (see Nature's Wrath) or create 100% new banes (see Brine Dragon Hunt). If they really felt they needed some really nasty banes for a particular scenario, they could add an additional sheet with multiple bane references using proxies.

Again, please play more organized play scenarios before you talk about what would improve organized play. A bane deck like this that would be considered a mandatory purchase would likely just be seen as a tax on organized play. Paizo has gotten by so far by creating a versatile game experience that is distinctively different from the Skull & Shackles base set scenarios. This hypothetical deck, if Paizo did think it would be a good idea, would not be released and implemented until next season at the earliest. People would think, "What? We need to buy something extra now just to run organized play? We got by in Season 0 just fine with PDFs and it was great!" There was a thread in the OP section of the forums in which a store owner expressed concerns about needing to have access to the future Adventure Decks so he could continue to run organized play. If an additional deck was required at the beginning, some stores may have not participated in organized play at all to begin with, unless Paizo also provided that to the stores for free which would just caused an additional lose of profits.


Myfly wrote:

There is a limited number of boons, on my part i am willing to WAIT until the Guardian Battle Axe +2 will be released in an upcoming adventure path...

And if it is just an issue of versatlity and not functionalit so I CAN WAIT.
Soon there will be with WotR more boons available,...

Then if desired paizo could release from adv path to adv path a free pdf list which "old" boons would could be optionally added for those people who like to have a bigger optional boon base for their class deck. This pdf-list could be modified for each new adv path to even provide more variance/versatility....

BUT now back to my suggested "hardcore bane for base set game play and OP bane cards" 110-cards pack, what is THIS thread ABOUT.
I definetly see chance for this, as you said, not for functionality but more for an issue of versatility :-)))))

Let the dark evil banes loose in the USA, they are at least slaughtered when they reach Europe by some mighty Heroes which are brave enough ;-) to face them HA HA ....
We Europeans finally save the PF world from the ultimate dark evil spreading ;-)))

Are YOU BRAVE enough?

Sigh... this thread clearly went off the rails.

I don't think there is an instance of those of us in the US being scared or not brave enough for the Myfly Hardcore Bane set, however, you have not even remotely suggested anything as far as what that kind of set would encompass or why it is really needed. What kind of different abilities or monsters/barriers are you suggesting? How much S&S have you played yet? Perhaps you might find that what you are looking for is already there. The current setup in S&S and especially in OP is definitely a step up in difficulty from RotR... and it isn't a matter of just increasing numbers or adding abilities.

The new difficulty comes from subtle combinations of increased difficulty on banes and more punishing locations. Your resources get put more to the test and there are more skills that are tested. At first glance you might not even notice that the difficulty has changed as most of the numbers appear to be similar, but I am finding that these devs might... just might... know what they are doing.

And that being said, I believe your suggestion is not something that would really benefit the game at current time and as was stated above, might actually be quite damaging to OP.

Also... I, and many people, yourself included, love this game and this community. I think the community and especially Paizo and Lone Shark, which give us all of this, deserve more than to have suggestions that amount to giving something for nothing (additional promos, updates - free of charge). We all want this to be successful, we all want the game to grow and to offer additonal opportunities for us all to enjoy more... I would be willing to pay MORE to ensure that would happen... I do not expect, nor would want, Paizo or our retailers to take a loss on anything.


Theryon Stormrune wrote:
Myfly wrote:

I would not want to replay Rotr in hardcore mode....

No what i mean is right away together with the character addon deck, at the start of a new adventure path, release a 110 card pack with hardcore banes which you have to add to each upcoming adventure...

So some customization...

I think what we're getting at is that there are ways to already customize a set to make it harder without putting out additional cards that would need to be researched and playtested and printed and sit on the store shelf because we don't think a lot would be sold. The idea of alternate "nightmare" banes would probably not be a big seller. Something like a set of additional class boons to fill in holes from the class decks probably would.

I thoroughly disagree

This very option is available via print on demand for LOTR TCG and it has been a success for them. Nightmare mode has reinvigorated interest in older scenarios and in deckbuilding

Its a win-win for a product in jump starting sales in older story arcs.

So while it's all well and good for you guys to have your opinions, the only actual statistics we have from another cooperative quest based fantasy card game would seem to be that there is a market for this very sort of idea.

Whether Paizo feels that this would be worth their while is completely at their option however.


GAVIN:
well, it is up to paizo how the cards look like. They could increase the difficulty by introducing a "great shark" reusing the "shark" image e.g. To save time for creating a new picture.. So it is up to paizo how much work and time they will invest. I am just suggesting better and improved conditions for gameplay.
MY IDEA, would be to introduce
1) a hardcore version of every "henchmen and villain" by increasing both its powers and abilities to finally get a 55 card deck for the hardcore version of the base set game play.
2) the second 55-cards pack would be for a variety of different NEW or modified banes for the OP, you could do monsters, new villains, new henchmen and barriers. So you could tell some different story, more surprising encounters, more fun ... So OP can be different from the base set game play.
Everything else is up to Tanis and Mike...

PULVIA:
Well, you can also sell the two above suggested 55card decks by itself... I assume a 55 card deck will cost you 8 USD for 4 OP players for 6 months... So regarding costs, a player has to spend 33 US cents per months to obtain this special OP bane deck.
Would you spend 33cent for more variety and fun and surprise?

JBiggs:
I want just to support the community with my ideas in order to maximize game play fun :-)
And these two combined 55card decks are definetly an amazing opportunity for Paizo to provide both more variety(level of ifficulty) and OP surprise.

TROYMK1:
Finally, I found my first supporter, hurray!
The business model is of course up to Paizo. They will definetly increase their profit with this idea and will convince more casual gamers to participate in OP as it is different from the bane cards...

Now I am interested in your feedback!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Myfly wrote:

PULVIA:

Well, you can also sell the two above suggested 55card decks by itself... I assume a 55 card deck will cost you 8 USD for 4 OP players for 6 months... So regarding costs, a player has to spend 33 US cents per months to obtain this special OP bane deck.
Would you spend 33cent for more variety and fun and surprise?

Paizo typically sells 55 card decks for $11 each. Two decks would be $22, so I'm assuming you're talking about 4 players splitting the cost? That's nice in theory, but doesn't always work (see the thread I linked above). You say $0.33 a month, but I think you meant $1.33. That's a nice way to put it, but this, again, first depends on four people splitting the cost and then spread over 6 months. This is a front loaded cost that would need to be paid at the very beginning of the OP season. This is especially counterintuitive to the practice of sending stores free base sets for demo and OP purposes (assuming this practice continues for future releases). That base set is then useless for one of its primary purposes until someone buys these extra decks or Paizo will have to also send them to stores for free, cutting away more of their profits.

And no, I don't think the cost is worth it because the same thing can be achieved through the scenario PDFs. The game has plenty of variety, fun, and surprise as it is.


Well, there is no surprise when you already know all avaialable cards when going into an OP scenario from your base set game play night...
Surprise is for me something completely different...

16 USD are 110 cards, so 8 USD is a 55card pack.
Divide 8USD by 4 players and 6 months... As you will see it is definetly 33 US cent per player per month... That is sending 2 Text messages via your cell phone per month!
And then you have real card encounter surprises! And not some proxy or whatever!

Come on, this is financable... What are we talking about?


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I will say that what I would definitely drop 20 bucks on would be a module styled continuation - AP 7 if you will...

I definitely have very little interest in buying the same banes with a slight make over, but new villains and scenarios that I could use my conquering heroes against and in? That would be awesome.


JBiggs78 wrote:

I will say that what I would definitely drop 20 bucks on would be a module styled continuation - AP 7 if you will...

I definitely have very little interest in buying the same banes with a slight make over, but new villains and scenarios that I could use my conquering heroes against and in? That would be awesome.

On the RotR AP6 villain we rolled 107.... How many MORE dice do you want to roll ?

My idea is to introduce stronger and smarter villains and henchmen for the hardcore version of course they can be new or improved.

And for OP more surprise cards... So 2 new 55card packs


Myfly wrote:
JBiggs78 wrote:

I will say that what I would definitely drop 20 bucks on would be a module styled continuation - AP 7 if you will...

I definitely have very little interest in buying the same banes with a slight make over, but new villains and scenarios that I could use my conquering heroes against and in? That would be awesome.

On the RotR AP6 villain we rolled 107.... How many MORE dice do you want to roll ?

My idea is to introduce stronger and smarter villains and henchmen for the hardcore version of course they can be new or improved.

And for OP more surprise cards... So 2 new 55card packs

I don't want to roll any more dice, but I do want to be able to use my ap 6 cards that I didn't really get to use... And I'd rather get new, harder scenarios than pay for slightly reworked henchmen that I already bought.

Just my two cents.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Myfly wrote:
Come on, this is financable... What are we talking about?

Okay, let me get this out of the way first. Yes, most people could budget for this product. What is another $20-$25 to enjoy a game you love over a 6+ month period? But you know, if I really wanted to, I could budget to spend $160 on Runelords and its Adventure Decks so that I could customize my Class Deck characters via your alternate suggestion, but I really wouldn't want to feel forced to in order to accomplish that desire. The point isn't CAN people budget for it, it's will they WANT to? Is this something that the majority of people will feel adds value to the game? I personally don't think so. If this product was made mandatory for organized play, it would only be seen as nothing more than a tax by most players and would make it more difficult for organizers to get organized play started.

Myfly wrote:

16 USD are 110 cards, so 8 USD is a 55card pack.

Divide 8USD by 4 players and 6 months... As you will see it is definetly 33 US cent per player per month... That is sending 2 Text messages via your cell phone per month!
And then you have real card encounter surprises! And not some proxy or whatever!

As I explained in my previous post, and as it is confirmed now, your numbers are wrong. $16 and $8 are not the prices of 110 card and 55 card decks. YOU may get your 110 card decks for $16 because you are a subscriber, but not everyone does. You can't use this figure to make a broad calculation. You need to use the actual suggested retail price of $20 for 110 card decks and as I said, Paizo charges $11 for 55 card decks. One of the main reasons for the organized play program is to support local game stores and these prices are what they would most likely be charging.

The second place your numbers when wrong is that you have stated organized play requiring two 55 card decks of your hypothetical product line. This would not be $8, but instead at least $16, even by your prices. However, although I don't know how it works in other countries, in the US most states charge sales tax on top of the purchase price of products. So while two 55 card packs would be $11 each, after sales tax the two decks could run you almost $24. Admittedly, my math went a little wrong here as 24 divided by 6, divided by 4 is actually $1, not $1.33, but that is still three times the amount you came up with. And again, although it is nice to say you can somehow divide this cost and finance it over 6 months so that it only costs 4 players $1 a month each, it doesn't change the fact that this cost will have to be paid up front and likely by one person, the event organizer. Organized Play is being advertized to only require a $20 Class Deck for players to participate. Tacking on something like this, again, will just be seen as a tax.

As far as "real surprises" go, if the event coordinator is already required to buy the decks, he will most likely be using them in his home games as well so that he might feel a little less cheated, so he's not going to be any more surprised than he would have been otherwise. Then the players who don't have their own base sets don't know what's in the base set anyway so they will be no more surprised than they would have been without the extra cards. Then the issue of "no proxies", this isn't bad at all. You just reference a quick piece of paper. But if it really does bother you, there is a much simpler route than forcing unnecessary products down everyone's throat: Print-on-demand. At the beginning of the season, Paizo can make a print-on-demand OP pack available for purchase online which would include all of the new Henchmen, Villains, etc. which will otherwise be proxied in the scenario PDFs. Everyone wins!

Myfly wrote:

Well, there is no surprise when you already know all avaialable cards when going into an OP scenario from your base set game play night...

Surprise is for me something completely different...

As stated already, this is a moot point. These new decks will effectively become part of nearly every base set. The only people who will get surprise with its implementation would be the few people who end up buying their own base set with no desire of running OP events and also hate the concept of buying harder banes for their box. So the only people gaining the primary benefit from this product (as new surprises seems to be what you are harping on the most) are the people who have no desire to buy it, even if they already have their own base set.

And I just wrote way more than I should have. I think I'll just stop responding to this thread now.


If you want to play your hard gained Adv6 boons and loots, you do not need you banes.

Just use them in a trickier scenario. Cost = 0. Plenty of fun and possibilities.

Take example of the variety of scenarios in S&S. With all the villains (even not previously used like Black Naga), henchmen, monsters and barriers that you have in RoR+S&S, and all the twiking you can do on the blessing deck and locations decks, we managed to create the equivalent to adventures 7 to 9.

It's just a matter of cleverly creating new adventure, scenario and location cards... and you only need a pen and paper (or a good PC and printer if you want to make it nicer). Since those cards are never shuffled, you don't need to have Paizo create them.


JBiggs78 wrote:
Myfly wrote:
JBiggs78 wrote:

I will say that what I would definitely drop 20 bucks on would be a module styled continuation - AP 7 if you will...

I definitely have very little interest in buying the same banes with a slight make over, but new villains and scenarios that I could use my conquering heroes against and in? That would be awesome.

On the RotR AP6 villain we rolled 107.... How many MORE dice do you want to roll ?

My idea is to introduce stronger and smarter villains and henchmen for the hardcore version of course they can be new or improved.

And for OP more surprise cards... So 2 new 55card packs

I don't want to roll any more dice, but I do want to be able to use my ap 6 cards that I didn't really get to use... And I'd rather get new, harder scenarios than pay for slightly reworked henchmen that I already bought.

Just my two cents.

Well, if you used your ap6 cards.... Do you also want to use your collected ap7 cards ?? ;-)

This is endless...


pluvia33 wrote:
Myfly wrote:
Come on, this is financable... What are we talking about?

Okay, let me get this out of the way first. Yes, most people could budget for this product. What is another $20-$25 to enjoy a game you love over a 6+ month period? But you know, if I really wanted to, I could budget to spend $160 on Runelords and its Adventure Decks so that I could customize my Class Deck characters via your alternate suggestion, but I really wouldn't want to feel forced to in order to accomplish that desire. The point isn't CAN people budget for it, it's will they WANT to? Is this something that the majority of people will feel adds value to the game? I personally don't think so. If this product was made mandatory for organized play, it would only be seen as nothing more than a tax by most players and would make it more difficult for organizers to get organized play started.

Myfly wrote:

16 USD are 110 cards, so 8 USD is a 55card pack.

Divide 8USD by 4 players and 6 months... As you will see it is definetly 33 US cent per player per month... That is sending 2 Text messages via your cell phone per month!
And then you have real card encounter surprises! And not some proxy or whatever!

As I explained in my previous post, and as it is confirmed now, your numbers are wrong. $16 and $8 are not the prices of 110 card and 55 card decks. YOU may get your 110 card decks for $16 because you are a subscriber, but not everyone does. You can't use this figure to make a broad calculation. You need to use the actual suggested retail price of $20 for 110 card decks and as I said, Paizo charges $11 for 55 card decks. One of the main reasons for the organized play program is to support local game stores and these prices are what they would most likely be charging.

The second place your numbers when wrong is that you have stated organized play requiring two 55 card decks of your hypothetical product line. This would not be $8, but instead at least $16, even by your prices. However, although I don't know...

My proposal was

1) 55 bane cards for OP play
2) 55 cards for a hardcore bane version for the base set play

Ad 1) for the costs: if a 55 cards deck is 11 USD, then you have to divide it by 4, then by 6 months.... So it is 11/24 which is 46 US cent per player per month for the OP bane cards...
So it is less the half what you wrote... Quite affordabl
Ad 2) more surprise by unseen cards in the OP decks... Well the organizer knows but not the player.. Woow amazing... You dont know what is coming...


What Theryon Stormrune said.


Jonah G wrote:
What Theryon Stormrune said.

What is it?


NOW my NEW IDEA of the NIGHTMARE (more difficult) BANE DECKS was realized by the PACG competing LCG namely

"The Lord of the Rings LCG"

See here and learn

Go to Nightmare decks..


I discussed that above MyFly....


Did not remember. Long time ago.

You were soooo right. I just came across those Nightmare packs...
... And the price is also very attractive!

Grand Lodge

And the games are completely different. Have you ever played LOTR LCG? There is no advancement of characters. You have access to all the cards available to the set/quest you're playing. You can tune your deck prior to playing.

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