Haste kind of sucks.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Ssalarn wrote:

Haste is powerful as is, it's pretty borked on the Summoner's list since he gets it as a 2nd level spell and has access to it before any other class in the game.

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It probably never should have been given to the Summoner at reduced level, but its usefulness is situational enough that I don't know that I could see it as a 5th level or higher spell. Those spells include straight up single action encounter enders, and haste is more of a team-oriented expediter.

I really can't sweat the summoner getting haste earlier than other spellcasters. He only gets it one level earlier than a wizard. The alternative would be to get it until 7th level - 2 levels later - and given the summoner list's orientation toward buffing summoned creatures/eidolons/teammates, I don't think that would be any more appropriate than getting it one level earlier.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Bill Dunn wrote:
I really can't sweat the summoner getting haste earlier than other spellcasters. He only gets it one level earlier than a wizard. The alternative would be to get it until 7th level - 2 levels later - and given the summoner list's orientation toward buffing summoned creatures/eidolons/teammates, I don't think that would be any more appropriate than getting it one level earlier.

The Summoner's issue(s) are largely tied to the fact that they wanted to pretend he was a 2/3 caster like the Bard when he's really a full 9 level caster who just has his casting broken up and partially pre-designated. But that's another subject.

What would have been appropriate is just making the Summoner a full caster with some of his known spells pre-designated for Summon Monster, and then balancing the eidolon accordingly for a full arcane caster with 3/4 BAB and light armor proficiency. Then he could have acquired haste at the same level as the Wizard (who already gets it earlier than most other classes) while still having a strong of catalogue of conjuration and buff spells to do everything he should do.

It's a little funny to see the conversation about how the Summoner in one poster's group doesn't want to cast haste, because the Summoner gets more direct and immediate benefit out of it than any other caster.

Silver Crusade

Yeah, its mostly because (and this is behind screen DM surmisings)

1.) Online game, moves slower.
2.) 6 players, so turns betwixt players take a while.
3.) He seems to feel obligated to cast it.

When his eidolon was up and running he was a lot less reticent, but lately he's been enjoying unleashing the summoners circus on his foes. Huge earth elementals switched out for bralani, switched out for air elementals, switched out for lillends.

Being able to summon monster on a standard, when calling the eidolon is full round ties into that.

He's a battlefield control summoner, that might make a difference over a synth or an 'with eidolon I beatcha face' summoner.

What has gotten me is that the party seems to prefer haste to heroism (higher level) (they like both admittedly) but haste increases their damage considerably on a full round action, whereas heroism just increases the severity of their hits a little.

When the summoner was using his eidolon, a lot of climactic encounters involved everyone getting hasted by the summoner, moving over to him. Summoner delaying for optimal payload, dim-dooring his eidolon and hasted breathern adjacent to an enemy, and then barbarian, paladin and eidolon full attacks going off with haste.


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Heroism doesn't increase damage dealt.

Also, heroism lasts 10 minutes per level? You cast it out of combat


Spook205 wrote:

When his eidolon was up and running he was a lot less reticent, but lately he's been enjoying unleashing the summoners circus on his foes. Huge earth elementals switched out for bralani, switched out for air elementals, switched out for lillends.

Being able to summon monster on a standard, when calling the eidolon is full round ties into that.

The choice is really "Hasted Eidolon and Hasted Party" vs. "Summon Monster N". The first is likely superior for most encounters, though he may like the flavor of summoning multiple monsters. Of course, he could also get his hands on a Lesser Quicken Metamagic Rod and cast Haste as a swift action, then summon as a standard action.

Spook205 wrote:
What has gotten me is that the party seems to prefer haste to heroism (higher level) (they like both admittedly) but haste increases their damage considerably on a full round action, whereas heroism just increases the severity of their hits a little.

Well, normally Heroism and Haste are the same level. Summoner is just strange on that front. Heroism also has the benefit of adding +2 to saves, which is very nice, and can make or break an encounter if fighting a spell caster (often the most dangerous type of encounter anyway). But Haste buffs multiple people, and, as CWheezy said, Heroism can go up pre-combat -- possibly even pre-dungeon.

Spook205 wrote:
When the summoner was using his eidolon, a lot of climactic encounters involved everyone getting hasted by the summoner, moving over to him. Summoner delaying for optimal payload, dim-dooring his eidolon and hasted breathern adjacent to an enemy, and then barbarian, paladin and eidolon full attacks going off with haste.

Sounds effective, if potentially dangerous for the Summoner. For extra lols, the Paladin could use Aura of Justice, and then you have a Hasted Paladin, Barbarian, and Eidolon, all with Smite Evil up. :-)


Not really the point of the thread but shouldn't the summoner summon the elementals and then cast haste? So the summoned creatures are hasten, too.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Not really the point of the thread but shouldn't the summoner summon the elementals and then cast haste? So the summoned creatures are hasten, too.

I was having similar thoughts. You only really need haste on round 1 if the map is fairly large; otherwise you could always summon your critter, have eveyone (including the critter) use their charge actions or move and standards to get in position and make their standard action attacks, and the haste everyone on round 2 when it will impact their full attacks.

As others have mentioned, heroism shouldn't really be competing with haste for in-combat action economy since heroism should normally be cast out of combat.

Sounds like there's room for the summoner in this scenario and his party to get what they want if they just tighten up their tactics a little bit.

Sovereign Court

Haste. Because there's a Slow spell. Great is the Slow spell.


Honestly when it comes to shutting down an encounter Stinking Cloud is even better than haste, though haste does provide better support for martials. It's a great buff and a useful spell, why would want to punish wizards who don't immediately go after battlefield control (possibly the better strategy) by making the spell that makes martials more effective better.

Or how about Fly. Immunity from being hit in many encounters. Or SM III. All as powerful as haste, and all third level.


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Ssalarn wrote:

Haste is powerful as is, it's pretty borked on the Summoner's list since he gets it as a 2nd level spell and has access to it before any other class in the game.

It probably never should have been given to the Summoner at reduced level, but its usefulness is situational enough that I don't know that I could see it as a 5th level or higher spell. Those spells include straight up single action encounter enders, and haste is more of a team-oriented expediter.

Yeah. I dont complain often about PF, but this was a bad idea, and the whole class was poorly thought out.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

DrDeth wrote:
Yeah. I dont complain often about PF, but this was a bad idea, and the whole class was poorly thought out.

Which even they are aware of since Jason Buhlman talked about Pathfinder Unchained including a version of the Summoner that "isn't completely broken" at the PaizoCon banquet this year :P

Back on subject though, I think that haste fits the 3rd level spell dynamic pretty well. Sure, it can be one of the better (maybe the best under the right circumstances) 3rd level spells out there, but it's strength is directly proportional to the composition of the party and the caster's willingness to use his action to share the spotlight and improve the team as a whole. It's a lot like a good Teamwork feat in that way, and frankly, I wish there were more arcane spells that encouraged teamwork-based play and were as effective as haste.


Ssalarn wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Yeah. I dont complain often about PF, but this was a bad idea, and the whole class was poorly thought out.

Which even they are aware of since Jason Buhlman talked about Pathfinder Unchained including a version of the Summoner that "isn't completely broken" at the PaizoCon banquet this year :P

Back on subject though, I think that haste fits the 3rd level spell dynamic pretty well. Sure, it can be one of the better (maybe the best under the right circumstances) 3rd level spells out there, but it's strength is directly proportional to the composition of the party and the caster's willingness to use his action to share the spotlight and improve the team as a whole. It's a lot like a good Teamwork feat in that way, and frankly, I wish there were more arcane spells that encouraged teamwork-based play and were as effective as haste.

Yeah, and James Jacobs said something like the "build your own" didnt match what he expected the class to be. And a Bard- party buffer supreme- needs to be level 7 before she gets one.

I agree, tho. It works well as a 3rd level spell. Look at it this way- it is a 5th level wizards only spell slot. Haste or Fireball? A 6th level sorc- what one spell does he take?

Not until 7th level can the party depend on Haste more than once a day, if even then. Unless they have a Summoner, of course.

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