Haste kind of sucks.


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Rynjin wrote:

I think you're conflating "There aren't many good 3rd level buff spells" with "Haste is too good because if you wanna buff why wouldn't you use it".

Heroism is amazing as well, but it lasts 10 minutes a level. No need to cast it in combat.

Other than that, everything is highly situational, like Fly.

Haste and Heroism are good all-purpose spells, that's why they're taken. Not every buff spell needs to be like Spiked Scales.

I don't see heroism being used all that often.

An extra percent chance to hit the enemy is almost never as good as an entire extra attack if your to-hit is at par, and heroism is a touch spell that only works on one target, and its bonus has a type.

Not that it's useless, just that it isn't nearly as widely applicable as haste.

If its duration were 1 hour/level, on the other hand, it might be worth the potion price.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I think you're conflating "There aren't many good 3rd level buff spells" with "Haste is too good because if you wanna buff why wouldn't you use it".

Heroism is amazing as well, but it lasts 10 minutes a level. No need to cast it in combat.

Other than that, everything is highly situational, like Fly.

Haste and Heroism are good all-purpose spells, that's why they're taken. Not every buff spell needs to be like Spiked Scales.

I don't see heroism being used all that often.

An extra percent chance to hit the enemy is almost never as good as an entire extra attack if your to-hit is at par, and heroism is a touch spell that only works on one target, and its bonus has a type.

Not that it's useless, just that it isn't nearly as widely applicable as haste.

If its duration were 1 hour/level, on the other hand, it might be worth the potion price.

We use Heroism all the time.

An extra 10% chance to hit is nice, but if that's all it did, it'd be meh.

But it adds to saves (GREAT!) and skill checks (goood). It's useful both in combat and out, and saves your BDF from getting dominated or something.

Slap on a Courageous weapon to bump that up to +4 to all of that and you're in business.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Going to just go out on a limb here an mention that the Words of Power equivalent to Haste is much more balanced than Haste.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I think you're conflating "There aren't many good 3rd level buff spells" with "Haste is too good because if you wanna buff why wouldn't you use it".

Heroism is amazing as well, but it lasts 10 minutes a level. No need to cast it in combat.

Other than that, everything is highly situational, like Fly.

Haste and Heroism are good all-purpose spells, that's why they're taken. Not every buff spell needs to be like Spiked Scales.

I don't see heroism being used all that often.

An extra percent chance to hit the enemy is almost never as good as an entire extra attack if your to-hit is at par, and heroism is a touch spell that only works on one target, and its bonus has a type.

Not that it's useless, just that it isn't nearly as widely applicable as haste.

If its duration were 1 hour/level, on the other hand, it might be worth the potion price.

10min/level normally last us a dungeon. Lately 1min/level last us a whole session.

That being said, if your players aren't using heroism ALL THE TIME, then they are missing out. Even if no one can cast it, you buy potions.


Rynjin wrote:

We use Heroism all the time.

An extra 10% chance to hit is nice, but if that's all it did, it'd be meh.

But it adds to saves (GREAT!) and skill checks (goood). It's useful both in combat and out, and saves your BDF from getting dominated or something.

Slap on a Courageous weapon to bump that up to +4 to all of that and you're in business.

My table also uses Heroism often. But if it doesn't come from a bard, I feel Heroism's a bit expensive to buff the whole party, especially around levels 5 ~ 8, where 3rd level Pearls of Power are still relatively expensive (1/3 of a PC's wealth).

Right about when Haste comes online is when Haste is most powerful. Assuming the Fighter's Damage per Attack is X, the Fighter without Haste is doing either:
1 * X damage per round or
1.5 * X damage per round with iteratives, assuming the iterative hits 50% of the time.
Heroism bumps the latter to roughly:
1.6 * X damage per round with iteratives
Whereas Haste increases the damage to:
2.55 * X damage per round with iteratives + haste.
The damage difference between a Haste-buffed fighter and an unbuffed or Heroism-buffed Fighter matters most when 1.5 * X or 1.6 * X is not enough to kill the monster, but 2.55 * X is enough. And, at least in my games, it often is. It's the difference between the monster getting two swings in the party vs the monster getting only one swing.

The caster casting Haste can theoretically cast other spells like Fireball or Stinking Cloud or Fly. However, these spells are not universally useful buffs. The primary downside of spells like Fireball or Stinking Cloud or Fly is that, if you have it prepared but you happen to run into a [Fire resistant] [Fort-save immune] or [Ranged Attacking] monster, these spells all are relatively not useful. Haste (or Heroism), on the other hand, is useful in almost any encounter (except, maybe swarms).


You don't choose between haste and heroism.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
You don't choose between haste and heroism.

Are you saying PCs should cast both or that you should pre-cast or drink a potion of Heroism?

From my experience, 3rd level spell slots are precious for a 5th level wizard.
Also, the duration of Heroism is long, but doesn't last the entire day. If the party has a random ambush encounter, you have to choose between casting haste or heroism with your standard action.


FuelDrop wrote:

Now I have to test this theory.

Cheese Dip.

...

SCIENCE!

I object to your cheese dip. Jalepenos are foul and that quantity would be insufficiently spicy. Havaneros or any asian chili would be better, though not in the same quantity for some varieties because jalapenos really are depressingly mild.

So, yeah, people will even object to cheese dip recipes.

On the subject of Haste, it also increases the usual combat imbalances. Two weapon fighters get little and monks even less, crossbowmen and slingers usually get nothing, and only archers and people with pounce show reliable benefit. About the only decent martial builds that don't get their advantages exaggerated are lancers and vital striking druids.

That's more an implementation problem, though. The Words of Power version goes the other way by giving a move action. That's more beneficial for non-pouncing melee and mitigates one of the worst weaknesses of TWF. And it doesn't overlap the monk's speed bonus.


voideternal wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
You don't choose between haste and heroism.

Are you saying PCs should cast both or that you should pre-cast or drink a potion of Heroism?

From my experience, 3rd level spell slots are precious for a 5th level wizard.
Also, the duration of Heroism is long, but doesn't last the entire day. If the party has a random ambush encounter, you have to choose between casting haste or heroism with your standard action.

Obviously I meant both or neither.


thorin001 wrote:
There is one huge drawback to Haste that everyone seems to be forgetting; the party must stay in Fireball formation until Haste is cast. And enemy casters tend to be good at initiative too.

fireball formation?

i really don't care about a mere 17 damage from the enemies after i make the save. with favored class, toughness and a belt of physical perfection, i rock enough hit points to where the fireball thrower would have to roll very high and i would need consistent bad luck for the saving throw to be an issue. and that is only 17 damage from a 10th level caster. i just eat it, engage, kill, heal after the fight.

most of the time, that 17 is more like 10 or 12 due to fire resistance and well, as a 3/4 bab partial caster, if i wanted, i likely have a minor swift heal or something if it really becomes a problem. i'm more afraid of mirror image and glitterdust than a fireball.

hell, even magic missile or acid splash scares me more than fireball because of its cheap use in counterspelling. in fact, to even make fireball a legitimate threat, you have to load it up with a mountain of metamagic feats to turn it not into a damage spell, but a dazing engine. but the daze is scarier than the blast.

the only time a fireball scares me is when i am level 5 or lower and playing an elf monk or something MAD like that.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:

On one hand I'm all for spells that buff martials vastly more than casters since it helps facilitate codependency.

On the other hand, I have seen no DSP psionic power equivalent to haste. Which tells me a lot about the spell. The one linked is a personal buff to a particular kind of psion or one of the more martial psionic classes.

Physical Acceleration exists and can be augmented.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:

On one hand I'm all for spells that buff martials vastly more than casters since it helps facilitate codependency.

On the other hand, I have seen no DSP psionic power equivalent to haste. Which tells me a lot about the spell. The one linked is a personal buff to a particular kind of psion or one of the more martial psionic classes.

Physical Acceleration exists and can be augmented.

Why yes I did link to that power, and it is a personal range spell. Not a team buff.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gingerbreadman wrote:
Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

For an easy fix, you could have it fatigue the target when the spell wears off.

Thematic, not a ton of math, and makes you wonder if it's the best move on round one.

For an easy fix you could have any spell fatigue the caster for one round per spell level.

Feel free to remove the magus from your list of allowable classes, and all character based on self buffing with spells.

If that applies to SLA reduce the CR of every monster with SLA by 1-2 points.

You want to apply that to supernatural abilities too? Or youa re making the comparatively stronger?

Essentially. You need to rebuild the game to work with that idea.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I think you're conflating "There aren't many good 3rd level buff spells" with "Haste is too good because if you wanna buff why wouldn't you use it".

Heroism is amazing as well, but it lasts 10 minutes a level. No need to cast it in combat.

Other than that, everything is highly situational, like Fly.

Haste and Heroism are good all-purpose spells, that's why they're taken. Not every buff spell needs to be like Spiked Scales.

I don't see heroism being used all that often.

An extra percent chance to hit the enemy is almost never as good as an entire extra attack if your to-hit is at par, and heroism is a touch spell that only works on one target, and its bonus has a type.

Not that it's useless, just that it isn't nearly as widely applicable as haste.

If its duration were 1 hour/level, on the other hand, it might be worth the potion price.

We use Heroism all the time.

An extra 10% chance to hit is nice, but if that's all it did, it'd be meh.

But it adds to saves (GREAT!) and skill checks (goood). It's useful both in combat and out, and saves your BDF from getting dominated or something.

Slap on a Courageous weapon to bump that up to +4 to all of that and you're in business.

Plus, as already said, it last 10 minutes/level.

My magus is very tempted to spend an arcana to get it.

voideternal wrote:


Right about when Haste comes online is when Haste is most powerful. Assuming the Fighter's Damage per Attack is X, the Fighter without Haste is doing either:
1 * X damage per round or
1.5 * X damage per round with iteratives, assuming the iterative hits 50% of the time.
Heroism bumps the latter to roughly:
1.6 * X damage per round with iteratives
Whereas Haste increases the damage to:
2.55 * X damage per round with iteratives + haste.
The damage difference between a Haste-buffed fighter and an unbuffed or Heroism-buffed Fighter matters most when 1.5 * X or 1.6 * X is not enough to kill the monster, but 2.55 * X is enough. And, at least in my games, it often is. It's the difference between the monster getting two swings in the party vs the monster getting only one swing.

The caster casting Haste can theoretically cast other spells like Fireball or Stinking Cloud or Fly. However, these spells are not universally useful buffs. The primary downside of spells like Fireball or Stinking Cloud or Fly is that, if you have it prepared but you happen to run into a [Fire resistant] [Fort-save immune] or [Ranged Attacking] monster, these spells all are relatively not useful. Haste (or Heroism), on the other hand, is useful in almost any encounter (except, maybe swarms).

Using your starting points (i.e. 1 character with BAB from +6 to +10), it should be:

1*X damage with 1 attack
1.5*X with a full attack

1.1*X with heroism and 1 attack
1.65*X with a full attack and heroism

haste
1.05*X with 1 attack and haste
2.625*X with a full attack and haste

Increasing the starting number of attack (as an example if you use TWF, a bow with rapid shot, your BAB is higher than +10, you sue flurry of blows, the attacking creature has several natural attacks, etc.) the effect of heroism increase while haste stay stationary.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Saying it's an issue doesn't make it an issue.

But all the other people saying it's an issue isn't even a hint of a clue that it might actually be an issue?

I and a few other people posting in this thread don't exist?

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As as this time the thread has 53 poster, that make:
9 not a problem
10 neutral
2 cheese dip
1 moderator

31 posters recognizing it as a problem.

If we consider only the yes/no posters it is 31/9 for it being a problem.
Hardly "everyone".


"All the other people" in this context should probably be taken to mean "all those other people" and not "all other people". If it causes problems for a significant number of people, then it is a real problem.

I'm playing a level 5 Sorcerer. If I make it to level 6, I'll take Haste as my one level 3 spell - it would feel like sabotaging the party to do anything else. I don't really mind - I'm happy to help out my melee-heavy party - but it's not great game balance if the decision is so easy.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
"All the other people" in this context should probably be taken to mean "all those other people" and not "all other people". If it causes problems for a significant number of people, then it is a real problem.

I take it as a "I am right, you are wrong, I say that everyone agree with me to prove that " kind of positions instead.

That is why I made my post.

Leaving out the moderator 31 poster out of 52 have voiced some problem with haste, and including some of those 31 in the "I have a big problem" list is generous.
Sorry, i don't see a 75% (31 out of 40) or a 60% (31 out of 52) majority as a unanimous vote.
It is enough to question if the spell is too good, but not a definitive proof.

Matthew Downie wrote:


I'm playing a level 5 Sorcerer. If I make it to level 6, I'll take Haste as my one level 3 spell - it would feel like sabotaging the party to do anything else. I don't really mind - I'm happy to help out my melee-heavy party - but it's not great game balance if the decision is so easy.

It is a good decision because you have a melee heavy party. Make it a bard, a 6th level ranger with the archery style, manishot and rapid shot and a witch.

Wouldn't be more useful to take a spell that give you some meat shield to interpose between your party and the enemy while you demolish it at range?
Or some control spell capable to slow down the enemies?


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
There is one huge drawback to Haste that everyone seems to be forgetting; the party must stay in Fireball formation until Haste is cast. And enemy casters tend to be good at initiative too.

fireball formation?

i really don't care about a mere 17 damage from the enemies after i make the save. with favored class, toughness and a belt of physical perfection, i rock enough hit points to where the fireball thrower would have to roll very high and i would need consistent bad luck for the saving throw to be an issue. and that is only 17 damage from a 10th level caster. i just eat it, engage, kill, heal after the fight.

most of the time, that 17 is more like 10 or 12 due to fire resistance and well, as a 3/4 bab partial caster, if i wanted, i likely have a minor swift heal or something if it really becomes a problem. i'm more afraid of mirror image and glitterdust than a fireball.

hell, even magic missile or acid splash scares me more than fireball because of its cheap use in counterspelling. in fact, to even make fireball a legitimate threat, you have to load it up with a mountain of metamagic feats to turn it not into a damage spell, but a dazing engine. but the daze is scarier than the blast.

the only time a fireball scares me is when i am level 5 or lower and playing an elf monk or something MAD like that.

Everybody in the party is going to make the save?

Everybody in the party has Toughness and uses FCB for hit points?
There is only one bad guy with AOE attacks?

Fireball is hardly the only AOE spell out there, it is just the most famous (and alliterates).


Did you count me Diego Rossi?


the secret fire wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Spook205 wrote:


2e used to balance its good spells by giving them non-mechanical, or non-obvious drawbacks. Haste was great. Improved your speed, made you made of win but...

Each casting of it on you ate a year of your life.

Which was no drawback or balancing mechanism at all, since you were most likely to die LONG before all that became an issue, or you were an Elf. Lose a year, big whoop.

I take it you didn't play earlier editions. Besides the fact that frequently casting haste on a human would bring him into middle age physical penalties really quickly, and the fact that you had to make a system shock check every time or just fall over dead...if you role played at all it should be pretty clear why aging a year would not be considered particularly cool to an awful lot of characters.

That is why you cast it (Haste) on enemies and watched them drop dead in 2E.

Remember, enemies rarely had stats listed instead they have bonuses listed only.
Ogres were only 4 HD +3 hp (meaning they have only 15 Con or so, for +1/level, -1?) so they failed System checks often too.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
selunatic2397 wrote:
Did you count me Diego Rossi?

As one of the "it is a problem" posters.

53 posters was the number in the thread header, I listed the "it is not a problem" guys and the neutral posts. All other were counted as "it is a problem".


I'm not saying haste itself is bad, I'm saying haste itself is boring.


Matthew Downie wrote:

"All the other people" in this context should probably be taken to mean "all those other people" and not "all other people". If it causes problems for a significant number of people, then it is a real problem.

I'm playing a level 5 Sorcerer. If I make it to level 6, I'll take Haste as my one level 3 spell - it would feel like sabotaging the party to do anything else. I don't really mind - I'm happy to help out my melee-heavy party - but it's not great game balance if the decision is so easy.

Do you feel this way about Power Attack?


Diego Rossi wrote:
selunatic2397 wrote:
Did you count me Diego Rossi?

As one of the "it is a problem" posters.

53 posters was the number in the thread header, I listed the "it is not a problem" guys and the neutral posts. All other were counted as "it is a problem".

Yup! you got me right! Thanks.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

"All the other people" in this context should probably be taken to mean "all those other people" and not "all other people". If it causes problems for a significant number of people, then it is a real problem.

I'm playing a level 5 Sorcerer. If I make it to level 6, I'll take Haste as my one level 3 spell - it would feel like sabotaging the party to do anything else. I don't really mind - I'm happy to help out my melee-heavy party - but it's not great game balance if the decision is so easy.

Do you feel this way about Power Attack?

I do, at least insofar as it is clearly better than TWF or sword-n-board, which it is. I also feel this way about the initiative-boosting traits. Dominant options are the result of poor game design; they kill diversity and they kill immersion. Yes, 3.x haste is a problem.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

"All the other people" in this context should probably be taken to mean "all those other people" and not "all other people". If it causes problems for a significant number of people, then it is a real problem.

I'm playing a level 5 Sorcerer. If I make it to level 6, I'll take Haste as my one level 3 spell - it would feel like sabotaging the party to do anything else. I don't really mind - I'm happy to help out my melee-heavy party - but it's not great game balance if the decision is so easy.

Do you feel this way about Power Attack?

I actually preferred the 3.5 power attack.

No, I don't really see it as better than the PF version, but it was far more interesting to use.


Its not possible for everything to be completely equal, and would probably be boring anyway. If yur casting haste for math then yur casting it for the wrong reason. Personally, I cast it because its more fun for my friends to get an extra attack. I hardly even benefit from it myself.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So discussion is pointless, because there will always be a thing that is better than most other things a vast majority of the time, to the point where not using it is an indicator of lack of familiarity with the game or a deliberate choice to be suboptimal.

Why would people want a crossbow to be as good as a bow? or a rogue to be as good as a bard?


Haste is the most efficiently powerful team-based combat spell in the game. I think most everyone agrees on this point.

Thelemic_Noun's argument is that this logical power makes it boring since casters are almost obligated to use the spell. I tend to agree that obligatory tactics or actions are boring.

Now, this is only true if you are faced with one combat-based encounter a day. I find this is rarely the case in published adventures. The spellcaster is faced with a very interesting decision in combat: Do I cast Haste THIS time? Unless you are preparing Haste in every spell slot which is very boring. Even sorcerers need to be conservative with their spells. You never know what's around the corner.


Haste is like crack.

It looks pointless until your party experiences it.

Then they race for it harder than an addict.

It's so good but unlike other good spells it helps those who hate magic. It's like healing magic. You're not likely to get complaints because it helps those who hate magic.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For those who don't see it as a problem, does the fact that a haste-based prestige class exists where one of the pre-reqs is that you prepare Haste in every level 3 spell slot for an entire character level change your mind? Here, have a Swiftblade.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Serisan wrote:
For those who don't see it as a problem, does the fact that a haste-based prestige class exists where one of the pre-reqs is that you prepare Haste in every level 3 spell slot for an entire character level change your mind? Here, have a Swiftblade.

Source "Classes in Web 3.5". If we use as a meter what some guy has dreamed up and written in the web I suspect we can find almost anything, included a class based on eating barbecue every day to maintain the character powers.

Dragon 328 had the force missile mage, a class based around magic missiles. That make magic missile a overpowered spell?
It is a good spell, maybe too good for its level, but hardly overpowered.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Gingerbreadman wrote:
Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

For an easy fix, you could have it fatigue the target when the spell wears off.

Thematic, not a ton of math, and makes you wonder if it's the best move on round one.

For an easy fix you could have any spell fatigue the caster for one round per spell level.

Feel free to remove the magus from your list of allowable classes, and all character based on self buffing with spells.

If that applies to SLA reduce the CR of every monster with SLA by 1-2 points.

You want to apply that to supernatural abilities too? Or youa re making the comparatively stronger?

Essentially. You need to rebuild the game to work with that idea.

It was more or less a silly remark for a preposterous suggestion by visitor.

But in the end nerfing all spellcasting would be better than just nerfing THE spell good for martials.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ok, my remark was about that change changing a lot of things.
It can be done, but it will heavily change the game.

I think that some of the changes in spell memorization and use have made the life of the spellcasters easier. And that even more important is that the 3.X generation of D&D rules make harder to manage larger groups of enemies and that benefits spellcaster wile making less important the ability of martials to swing a sword for hours, but that is a larger problem.

Haste is a good spell, one of the best for its level, but it isn't the "only choice". Depending on your party composition and your enemies it can even become a spell with a limited utility.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Saying it's an issue doesn't make it an issue.

But all the other people saying it's an issue isn't even a hint of a clue that it might actually be an issue?

I and a few other people posting in this thread don't exist?

In order of apparition:
Mythic Evil Lincoln
Gio
LazarX
voska66
Diego Rossi
Rynjin
Cyrad
Freehold DM
Marroar Gellantara

Neutral coomments:
Gingerbreadman
DrDeth

As as this time the thread has 53 poster, that make:
9 not a problem
10 neutral
2 cheese dip
1 moderator

I specifically said it was NOT a problem, in fact the opposite, it adds balance to the game.

Mythic Evil Lincoln seems to have said about the same.


DrDeth wrote:

I specifically said it was NOT a problem, in fact the opposite, it adds balance to the game.

Mythic Evil Lincoln seems to have said about the same.

"Adding balance" is going a little far.

All I'm saying is that the whole game doesn't immediately fall apart if you play it with less magic available, in any level of scarcity from "no wizards" to "no item shops".

This is because every campaign starts as a low-magic game at level 1. Keeping it there can be tricky, but it's not all that much trickier than balancing any campaign. It's all about NOT adding things that offend the group's sensibility, which most often results in trailing CR and cherry-picking monsters, etc.

The GM has to be awake, and realize that he can't just use the prescribed systems as-is.

But it's fine to balance on the fly, and can make for memorable campaigns.


Were it not for haste we would have not ever had the swiftblade as a class.....


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Haste is a good spell. Arguably the strongest level 3. I personally like that the strongest level 3 spell is one that promotes teamwork and the group rather than just being a save-or-lose type effect.

That said, I disagree strongly that every caster with it on his list is obligated to take or cast it. Everyone in the party should have a role to fill. One of those roles is supporting and enhancing your teammates, and if that is your role, and you have it on your spell list, then yes, haste is an obvious choice. If that isn't your role though, you should be doing something else. If you are supposed to be controlling the battlefield, then you should be doing that and not casting haste.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

I specifically said it was NOT a problem, in fact the opposite, it adds balance to the game.

Mythic Evil Lincoln seems to have said about the same.

"Adding balance" is going a little far.

All I'm saying is that the whole game doesn't immediately fall apart if you play it with less magic available, in any level of scarcity from "no wizards" to "no item shops".

This is because every campaign starts as a low-magic game at level 1. Keeping it there can be tricky, but it's not all that much trickier than balancing any campaign. It's all about NOT adding things that offend the group's sensibility, which most often results in trailing CR and cherry-picking monsters, etc.

The GM has to be awake, and realize that he can't just use the prescribed systems as-is.

But it's fine to balance on the fly, and can make for memorable campaigns.

Of course, I realize I got my threads confused exactly 59 minutes and 55 seconds after making this post.

Please disregard my quoted comment, it was thought to be in another thread (the Why Low Magic? thread)

One might say I posted with too much ...haste! haha.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DrDeth wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Saying it's an issue doesn't make it an issue.

But all the other people saying it's an issue isn't even a hint of a clue that it might actually be an issue?

I and a few other people posting in this thread don't exist?

In order of apparition:
Mythic Evil Lincoln
Gio
LazarX
voska66
Diego Rossi
Rynjin
Cyrad
Freehold DM
Marroar Gellantara

Neutral coomments:
Gingerbreadman
DrDeth

As as this time the thread has 53 poster, that make:
9 not a problem
10 neutral
2 cheese dip
1 moderator
31 posters recognizing it as a problem.

I specifically said it was NOT a problem, in fact the opposite, it adds balance to the game.

Mythic Evil Lincoln seems to have said about the same.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was listing the people that, like me, feel that haste isn't a problem.


DrDeth wrote:


I specifically said it was NOT a problem, in fact the opposite, it adds balance to the game.

Can you clarify what you mean by "adds balance"?

Do you view balance as a cup, where each ability adds to it. But some abilities add too much?

Silver Crusade

Diego Rossi wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Saying it's an issue doesn't make it an issue.

But all the other people saying it's an issue isn't even a hint of a clue that it might actually be an issue?

I and a few other people posting in this thread don't exist?

In order of apparition:
Mythic Evil Lincoln
Gio
LazarX
voska66
Diego Rossi
Rynjin
Cyrad
Freehold DM
Marroar Gellantara

Neutral coomments:
Gingerbreadman
DrDeth

As as this time the thread has 53 poster, that make:
9 not a problem
10 neutral
2 cheese dip
1 moderator
31 posters recognizing it as a problem.

I specifically said it was NOT a problem, in fact the opposite, it adds balance to the game.

Mythic Evil Lincoln seems to have said about the same.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was listing the people that, like me, feel that haste isn't a problem.

Truth be told, I don't see it as a 'problem.' I see problems with it.

Having my summoner spend an entire turn on casting it (big party, so his turn comes up infrequently), or being bugged by his teammates if he didn't isn't a fault of the spell so much as the spell being 'too good.'

Admittedly, Dimension Door was in a similar area until he flipped out on them for treating him like their 'taxi service.'


Spook205 wrote:


Truth be told, I don't see it as a 'problem.' I see problems with it.

Having my summoner spend an entire turn on casting it (big party, so his turn comes up infrequently), or being bugged by his teammates if he didn't isn't a fault of the spell so much as the spell being 'too good.'

Admittedly, Dimension Door was in a similar area until he flipped out on them for treating him like their 'taxi service.'

Really? "only" having your move action, your swift action and a whole round of eidolon actions in addition to buffing the party is not enough for poor Mr. Summoner?

Silver Crusade

Gingerbreadman wrote:
Spook205 wrote:


Truth be told, I don't see it as a 'problem.' I see problems with it.

Having my summoner spend an entire turn on casting it (big party, so his turn comes up infrequently), or being bugged by his teammates if he didn't isn't a fault of the spell so much as the spell being 'too good.'

Admittedly, Dimension Door was in a similar area until he flipped out on them for treating him like their 'taxi service.'

Really? "only" having your move action, your swift action and a whole round of eidolon actions in addition to buffing the party is not enough for poor Mr. Summoner?

As far as I know I've never seen the guy use his swift action and the eidolon hasn't been out really since level 7 or so.

Usually what ends up happening is he spends the first two rounds buffing or playing taxi at the behest of his party members, or if he forgoes the buffing (or is lucky enough to get them off before hand), he solves his action economy problems by dropping in a cadre of huge earth elementals.

I just find it odd that a 14th level party still considers haste (2nd level summoner spell) to be such a major game changer that they actually have told the guy to not use stuff like dispel magic, banishment or heroism.

Now, this might be a party issue (6 person party) as one of the party members is a bard who through a collection of appropriate feats, magic items and other equipment can grant +6 to hit/+6 damage to those within 30ft of him (and +4/+4 to those without).

It might also be a DM issue as its an online campaign and I've historically put them on maps where they have to move for a round or two to have long range spells in range.

But it seems odd to me that the party is so dang concerned about a second level spell over any other buffs, especially to the point of harping on the summoner to cast it constantly.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the thread title is perfect "it kind of sucks" it doesn't super suck, but the suck it brings is that subtle suck of blandness. I like what that one poster said that if the best spell is going to be a spell that fosters team work that is a point in the spells favour.

I snarked up thread about Mythic haste putting normal haste to shame, although I think in terms of Mythic, Mythic Heroism wins over Mythic Haste, and when your party has a buff bard and a buff wizard, it gets a little insane (especially because mythic bardic performance stacks on top of it all.)

I only bring up mythic because it is salient to the discussion, the wizard in our group (a diviner with a + hojillion to initiative) always acts in the surprise round does one of two things (95% of the time), 1: cast haste 2: blow a horn that makes all the characters not flat footed. In the case of #1 he makes a game time decision on haste vs mythic haste. The powers of the spell are compounded in a mythic game, not just by its own improved capabilities, but because mythic champions can usually make full attack action after a move, meaning they almost always get their hasted attack, and can get from one foe to another with ease.

As he has access to 5th level spells, you would expect he might have something more impressive to bring to bare, but it is almost always the same story. That speaks to the ultimate utility, and thus homogenizing force haste brings.

While the original spell was brutal with its loss of 1 year, I wonder about the suggestion of fatigue (until rested or lesser restoration.) It is most punishing to a barbarian, but a barbarian also get the greatest benefit from haste so maybe that is fair.

I think all this is speculative feedback for a the future and not asking for an errata, and to that end, I want to circle back to my hypothesis, is the spell broken? probably not since everyone can use it, its just homogenizing. Which makes the game a little more bland.


3rd level spell normally (Don't key balance off the Summoner list, they get a whole bunch of s*!~ they shouldn't at lower levels), which is one of the better combat buffs in the game (mostly because there aren't many. Not a whole ton of buffs worth spending an action on in combat).

If he doesn't use his Eidolon and other actions that's his problem.

I'm not sure what you see so odd about the party being concerned with a good buff spell being cast. Don't play a character with buff spells if you're going to whine when people ask you to use them.

Silver Crusade

Rynjin wrote:

3rd level spell normally (Don't key balance off the Summoner list, they get a whole bunch of s~!* they shouldn't at lower levels), which is one of the better combat buffs in the game (mostly because there aren't many. Not a whole ton of buffs worth spending an action on in combat).

If he doesn't use his Eidolon and other actions that's his problem.

I'm not sure what you see so odd about the party being concerned with a good buff spell being cast. Don't play a character with buff spells if you're going to whine when people ask you to use them.

As the DM its more an anecdotal thing of them passing over higher level buffs (which should be better) for the lower level one.

It makes me think the spells are a bit out of joint.

This isn't going to cause things to burst into flames, or make cats and dogs live together, its not even a huge problem, but it does seem to show that something's kinda off when they prefer a level 3 spell (2 for summoner) to a higher level spell off of the same guy's list.

That's been my whole thing in this thread. Haste does an awful lot, and seems under priced as a 3rd level spell.

I don't have a strong feeling for it. I'm not going to be like 'We must increase it, all pathfinder is broken else we fix this minor mechanical issue!' I'm just pointing out that it seems janky where a character is almost viewed as a pathway to Haste, and where people pass over higher level spells for it.

Also note, in a six person party, at 14th level, its rare that the combat gets past round 3. So the summoner, near as I can tell from attitude at the table (I'm not him, and I'm not psychic), dislikes basically having his first round action be continually stolen by Haste because the party wants to run faster and have an extra attack.


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It would not be stolen if he played his eidolon. While perhaps not as strong a s a full fighter an eidolon, especially a hasted one, is a force on its own and could well get something done.
And if the party waits for him to buff the eidolon is the first to act (if like in most groups they act on the summoner's ini) after the buff.
Forfeiting all but a single standard action and complaining that you waste a whole turn buffing is .. unproductive.

TL;DR He has 2 move actions, 2 standard actions, 2 swift actions and all but one standard action benefits from haste, if he so chooses.

Silver Crusade

Gingerbreadman wrote:

It would not be stolen if he played his eidolon. While perhaps not as strong a s a full fighter an eidolon, especially a hasted one, is a force on its own and could well get something done.

And if the party waits for him to buff the eidolon is the first to act (if like in most groups they act on the summoner's ini) after the buff.
Forfeiting all but a single standard action and complaining that you waste a whole turn buffing is .. unproductive.

TL;DR He has 2 move actions, 2 standard actions, 2 swift actions and all but one standard action benefits from haste, if he so chooses.

I'm not making the guy's argument for him (this is getting off topic), but the eidolon isn't kept out because he seems to feel its inferior in every way to utilizing the summon monster ability he has. He'd rather have multiple big stompy guys to 1 really good big stompy guy.

Again, might be a table thing but I never, never ever, use a single boss monster.

He'd mostly rather summon in creatures as opposed to buff but everyone, again, seems to consider getting hasted to be superior to having three huge earth elementals on the field.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Spook205 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

3rd level spell normally (Don't key balance off the Summoner list, they get a whole bunch of s~!* they shouldn't at lower levels), which is one of the better combat buffs in the game (mostly because there aren't many. Not a whole ton of buffs worth spending an action on in combat).

If he doesn't use his Eidolon and other actions that's his problem.

I'm not sure what you see so odd about the party being concerned with a good buff spell being cast. Don't play a character with buff spells if you're going to whine when people ask you to use them.

As the DM its more an anecdotal thing of them passing over higher level buffs (which should be better) for the lower level one.

It makes me think the spells are a bit out of joint.

This isn't going to cause things to burst into flames, or make cats and dogs live together, its not even a huge problem, but it does seem to show that something's kinda off when they prefer a level 3 spell (2 for summoner) to a higher level spell off of the same guy's list.

That's been my whole thing in this thread. Haste does an awful lot, and seems under priced as a 3rd level spell.

I don't have a strong feeling for it. I'm not going to be like 'We must increase it, all pathfinder is broken else we fix this minor mechanical issue!' I'm just pointing out that it seems janky where a character is almost viewed as a pathway to Haste, and where people pass over higher level spells for it.

Also note, in a six person party, at 14th level, its rare that the combat gets past round 3. So the summoner, near as I can tell from attitude at the table (I'm not him, and I'm not psychic), dislikes basically having his first round action be continually stolen by Haste because the party wants to run faster and have an extra attack.

Haste is powerful as is, it's pretty borked on the Summoner's list since he gets it as a 2nd level spell and has access to it before any other class in the game.

The real thing about haste is that it's hard to place exactly where it should be placed power-wise because it's different for every group. A group whose focus is on combining mobility with efficient standard or single attack actions (much more common now, with casters, kineticists, DSP's Path of War classes, cavaliers, etc.) get a lot less out of it than groups consisting of multiple party members who all operate within the bounds of the full attack mechanic. And archers (somewhat weirdly) usually benefit more than melee by virtue of being able to immediately step into their enhanced full attacks (the dynamic only swings back in melee character's favor on larger maps with lots of cover).

It probably never should have been given to the Summoner at reduced level, but its usefulness is situational enough that I don't know that I could see it as a 5th level or higher spell. Those spells include straight up single action encounter enders, and haste is more of a team-oriented expediter.

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