What archetype sounds good for Hell's Rebels?


Hell's Rebels

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cleric of Milani evangelist or hidden cleric for flavor
wizard primalist because I like primalist
or bard Demagogue because it sounds like the campaign will have a rouseing speech at some point and I want to be ready for it.


James Jacobs wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
I'm thinking some shade of antipaladin and/or someone transplanted from Galt. If I'm going to be rebelling over mint and grain I want to let loose and do some cartoonishly evil crap.
This is kinda what the next AP is for, honestly... evil won't really fit that well into Hell's Rebels's themes. Of course, if your GM is willing to play along with your plans and doesn't mind rewriting a fair amount of content... feel free to try it out?

I must admit that I'm just a liiiiiiittle wary of the intended theme if you're saying that Hell's Vengeance is good for "cartoonishly evil crap". I want my evil characters to be likable and nuanced, not stereotypes like the Antipaladin! Admittedly the Antipaladin is a hilarious character; seriously, who paints a sign that literally leads to "Burning Orphanage"? Give the person who drew that a stipend, it's the perfect picture.

As for on-topic, I definitely think that a Cult Leader is a perfect fit for this AP. Lead the masses against tyranny, send them all to fight for what is right, even if they don't know it!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Evelyn Jones wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
I'm thinking some shade of antipaladin and/or someone transplanted from Galt. If I'm going to be rebelling over mint and grain I want to let loose and do some cartoonishly evil crap.
This is kinda what the next AP is for, honestly... evil won't really fit that well into Hell's Rebels's themes. Of course, if your GM is willing to play along with your plans and doesn't mind rewriting a fair amount of content... feel free to try it out?

I must admit that I'm just a liiiiiiittle wary of the intended theme if you're saying that Hell's Vengeance is good for "cartoonishly evil crap". I want my evil characters to be likable and nuanced, not stereotypes like the Antipaladin! Admittedly the Antipaladin is a hilarious character; seriously, who paints a sign that literally leads to "Burning Orphanage"? Give the person who drew that a stipend, it's the perfect picture.

As for on-topic, I definitely think that a Cult Leader is a perfect fit for this AP. Lead the masses against tyranny, send them all to fight for what is right, even if they don't know it!

The idea that Hell's Vengeance is a good choice for AP if you want to play a "cartoonishly evil character" is NOT the same as me saying "Hell's Vengeance is a cartoonishly evil AP."


James Jacobs wrote:
Runelord Apologist wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
I'm thinking some shade of antipaladin and/or someone transplanted from Galt. If I'm going to be rebelling over mint and grain I want to let loose and do some cartoonishly evil crap.
This is kinda what the next AP is for, honestly... evil won't really fit that well into Hell's Rebels's themes. Of course, if your GM is willing to play along with your plans and doesn't mind rewriting a fair amount of content... feel free to try it out?

** spoiler omitted **

With that in mind, I find myself drawn to playing a character in the Arsene Lupin mold; the man loyal to himself first and his heritage second, but who prefers things done cleanly without bloodshed or harm to innocents (though it never quite goes as he prefers). Mastermind, Infiltrator, or Psychic Detective investigator all seem good for it, though sadly none are compatible. Psychic Detective with the Orator feat sounds best, and cover the disguise aspect somehow else.

Not to me, no. But then, I have the advantage of knowing how the whole AP is structured and written and how many places there are for an evil character to not fit in nearly as well as a lawful good one. You and/or your GM may see it differently, I guess... but to me, the good and evil axis of the alignment is a MUCH stronger flavor than the law and chaos axis. AKA it's easier for law and chaos to mix than it is for good and evil, thematically.

Well, it'd be really easy to have an anti-paladin of Calistria in here. Say her favorite ice cream is mint chocolate chip, and now it's outlawed. Starting a revolution over something so trivial does seem like the proverbial 'over-the-top' reaction of vengeance of a CE Calistrian anti-paladin.

"What do you mean I can't buy my ice cream here? Who made this law? HE MUST PAY!!!"


Well, Lawful Good and Chaotic Good work together better than Good and Evil, at least.

Meanwhile, Devils and Hellknights.


DominusMegadeus wrote:

Well, Lawful Good and Chaotic Good work together better than Good and Evil, at least.

Meanwhile, Devils and Hellknights.

Oh I dunno, I could see some devils working with archons against the worldwound with how much they both hate demons.


Myrryr wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

Well, Lawful Good and Chaotic Good work together better than Good and Evil, at least.

Meanwhile, Devils and Hellknights.

Oh I dunno, I could see some devils working with archons against the worldwound with how much they both hate demons.

That's my point. Law is not prone to working with Chaos for any reason outside of a shared Good. Meanwhile, Evil and Good are willing to work together for a shared Law.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

Well, Lawful Good and Chaotic Good work together better than Good and Evil, at least.

Meanwhile, Devils and Hellknights.

Oh I dunno, I could see some devils working with archons against the worldwound with how much they both hate demons.
That's my point. Law is not prone to working with Chaos for any reason outside of a shared Good. Meanwhile, Evil and Good are willing to work together for a shared Law.

Which always somewhat frustrated me. Honestly, the alignments should be equal in that regard. You should have points where demons and azata's would team up to fight archons, or proteans and inevitables team up to fight daemons and agathions. The thing is, CE, CN, and NE are always written as utterly uncomprising and refusing to do anything, even with things that share an alignment with them.

Why? Evil can work with evil and chaos can work with chaos. This is already known. There isn't anything in the Chaos and Evil descriptions or rules that prevent cooperation, but suddenly you put them together and they change from intelligent, forward thinking beings into woodchippers without minds.

This is why I like Demons like Nocticula and Socothbenoth. They're chaotic, they're evil, and they can work with other things, even going so far as go off alignment with their allies. But they're the extremely rare exceptions. And I've never seen anything anywhere where a protean did something that wasn't basically 'f*ck it up'.


James Jacobs wrote:

So, also, don't read too much into THIS post...

BUT! If you were to play a chaotic good rebel fighting against House Thrune in Hell's Rebels... what would be your number-one choice for archetype to take for your character?

Slayer.


jedi8187 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Runelord Apologist wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
I'm thinking some shade of antipaladin and/or someone transplanted from Galt. If I'm going to be rebelling over mint and grain I want to let loose and do some cartoonishly evil crap.
This is kinda what the next AP is for, honestly... evil won't really fit that well into Hell's Rebels's themes. Of course, if your GM is willing to play along with your plans and doesn't mind rewriting a fair amount of content... feel free to try it out?

** spoiler omitted **

With that in mind, I find myself drawn to playing a character in the Arsene Lupin mold; the man loyal to himself first and his heritage second, but who prefers things done cleanly without bloodshed or harm to innocents (though it never quite goes as he prefers). Mastermind, Infiltrator, or Psychic Detective investigator all seem good for it, though sadly none are compatible. Psychic Detective with the Orator feat sounds best, and cover the disguise aspect somehow else.

Not to me, no. But then, I have the advantage of knowing how the whole AP is structured and written and how many places there are for an evil character to not fit in nearly as well as a lawful good one. You and/or your GM may see it differently, I guess... but to me, the good and evil axis of the alignment is a MUCH stronger flavor than the law and chaos axis. AKA it's easier for law and chaos to mix than it is for good and evil, thematically.
It depends. Most people play Chaotic Good as someone with Good aligned goals and Chaotic aligned tactics. Like wise Chaotic Evil or Lawful Good where the Good/Evil are the end goals and the Chaos/Law are the methods of getting there. So Chaotic Good and Lawful Good have an easier time with each other because they are trying to get the same thing, they just disagree on the method to get there. However characters fighting for a Chaotic end and Lawful end with good methods may but heads a lot more. You touch on this...

^this.

Youre running a rebellion, how many people notice evil guys in a chaotic evironment.
Rebellion needs all the help it can get.
A chaotic evil character might not have the same goals as you, but is going along for the ride because 1) it up ends the establishment and 2) there is endless opportunity for blood and murder along the way.


Pendagast wrote:

^this.

Youre running a rebellion, how many people notice evil guys in a chaotic evironment.
Rebellion needs all the help it can get.
A chaotic evil character might not have the same goals as you, but is going along for the ride because 1) it up ends the establishment and 2) there is endless opportunity for blood and murder along the way.

The Rebellion itself may be Chaotic, but the goals may not necessary be. In fact, the goals of the Rebellion may be very Good, and ultimately, maybe even Lawful. So how long will a Chaotic Evil Anti-Paladin survive until he has a crisis of alignment just like a Lawful/Good Paladin might when trying to help overthrow a Chaotic/Evil regime for Lawful/Evil reasons or end goals. Obviously, someone other than an Anti-Paladin wouldn't have the same repercussions here, but there might still be an alignment shift as a result. Now, if you want to start with C/E with an eye toward the rebellion itself shifting your PC toward Good, that might be interesting/fun all by itself.

If a DM wants to put in the time to work the campaign toward supporting that kind of role, then that's up to him or her. But if the designer says there will be... issues... I'd lean toward there being a lot of rewriting going on to handle it.


Be interesting if you find out part way into the rebellion that the rebels have some really nasty forces among them . . . .


Kind of like the Inglorious Bastards?

"You each owe me 10 hellknight scalps, and I want my scalps!"


^Or even Antipaladins of Rovagug, such as currently are running amok on Earth, although the ones here are quite a bit more organized than you might expect from reading the class description or Antipaladin Code.

Speaking of Hellknights, who is this Order of the Torrent -- is illegal spell sharing a big issue in Cheliax?


Anti-Paladin of Gorum wholeheartedly supports the war. You can call it a rebellion if you want. He doesn't judge.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Anti-Paladin of Gorum wholeheartedly supports the war. You can call it a rebellion if you want. He doesn't judge.

Heh. Equal opportunity war! On that note, I'm sure an anti-paladin of Charon would be cool with it as well.

"Oi, you killing people?"
"...Yeah, it's a revolution..."
"I'll join. Where's the closest warm body you need dead?" *hefts his scythe*


So, I click on this thread to see what archetypes people are considering for the fantastic new AP, right? But instead, I see a thread hijacked over a debate about alignment...very disappointing. Of the last 25-30 posts, only 3-4 actually talked about classes and none talked about archetypes.
Ghost Rider Cavalier with Celestial Eldritch Heritage! A knight on a ghost horse shooting holy flames from their hands! Sounds fun to me, but not so practical or clandestine.


Just had a thought: Hell's Rebels (and for that matter Hell's Vengeance) provide a good opportunity to introduce Hellknight archetypes of several base classes, made to synergize with the prestige classes.


Or they could make a 1-20 Hellknight base class.

Please

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Builds which come to mind for me are:

*Rogue - Liberator,Roof Runner,Spy,or Smuggler, possibly taking levels in Master Spy PrC
*Rogue - Thug if going for a less subtle rebellion
*Bard - Celebrity/Court Bard
*Wizard - no archetype/Mage of the Veil school


DominusMegadeus wrote:

Or they could make a 1-20 Hellknight base class.

Please

You would want more than just one base class -- remember that Hellknights have full martials, arcane casters, and divine casters, at a minimum, and and it would be strange if their divine types didn't have both Clerics and Inquisitors, and and as for the martial types, we know that they have a handful of Paladins in their ranks, and it would be kind of strange if either Cavalier or Fighter was missing, so right there that's at least 6 classes needing archetypes.

Martial types (Hellknight Armigers before promotion to Hellknight):

Cavalier (archetype needed)
Fighter (archetype needed, probably a sub-archetype of Tactician)
Paladin (Oath Against Chaos already done but needs some writing tweaks)

Spellcasting types (what are rank-and-file spellcasting Hellknights called before promotion to Signifers?):

Cleric (archetype needed)
Inquisitor (archetype needed, with attention to making it work well with the Hellknight Signifer prestige class since the prestige class is designed to work with full casters)
Wizard (archetype needed, with attention to the fact that Hellknight Signifer is actually rather bad for arcane spellcasters, because Arcane Armor Training is rather bad; same problem on Magus and Sorcerer if you include them, except that it is just about useless on most Magi)


I built one of these as an adversary in Council of Thieves. Either Inquisitor X/Fighter 1, or Inquisitor X w/ heavy armor feat works just fine.


I wish Pathfinder had a Summoner archetype that supported Eidolons of Intelligence >7 (keeping in mind that currently you can only boost this very slightly and slowly). This would be very useful for a Summoner Switch, in which you start out playing the Summoner, and then after the Summoner dies, the Eidolon becomes Unfettered, and becomes your new character. Would be a thematically fitting way of getting an Outsider character into the campaign. For Hell's Rebels in particular, it would be an awesome way to get a Rebel Devil.

Liberty's Edge

Bard- Arcane Healer (Inspire Courage and Channel Positive Energy :-) )
Sorcerer- Dual-Blooded Sorcerer (Abyssal & Infernal)


Thread Graveknight time! I finally managed to download the Hell's Vengeance Player's Guide, and I am reading it now.

Hell's Vengeance Player's Guide, Classes section wrote:

{. . .}

There's even a tyrant antipaladin archetype in Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue, if you want to flavor your antipaladin with a lawful evil alignment.
{. . .}

Hell . . . It's about time!

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