Goblinworks Blog: Early Enrollment "Hold"


Pathfinder Online

51 to 100 of 195 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
CEO, Goblinworks

1 person marked this as a favorite.

We'll have some pretty extensive patch notes. Alpha 11 may actually be the Early Enrollment build. We have to deploy it, then test it to see how it performs under load. So a bunch of stuff that we have on our checklist as requirements to start Early Enrollment will be in that build.

Goblin Squad Member

Baelen wrote:
Sad panda made the mistake of taking a week off to play... for the second time haha.

Aww man that sucks :-(

Goblin Squad Member

Baelen wrote:
Sad panda made the mistake of taking a week off to play... for the second time haha.

After being burned like this many, many moons ago with a few different MMO launches, I've found it's best to wait until at least a couple of weeks after launch to take time off. Take it as a life lesson learned, my friend. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Baelen wrote:
Sad panda made the mistake of taking a week off to play... for the second time haha.

Tell work Grandma didn't die like you thought, but she want into hospice and you might have to take time off in the next couple of weeks. Hey, it's cheesy, bit it might work! And if there is another delay you can say, "They took her off the feeding tube, but she refuses to go!"

Buy time like a pro!

Goblin Squad Member

Alzaric wrote:
Baelen wrote:
Sad panda made the mistake of taking a week off to play... for the second time haha.
After being burned like this many, many moons ago with a few different MMO launches, I've found it's best to wait until at least a couple of weeks after launch to take time off. Take it as a life lesson learned, my friend. :)

If, as has been hinted, you will get backdated XP, there is no rush to log in the instant the server goes live and start playing.

As far as achievements go, the experience in Alpha has been that a newly created character with backdated XP will quickly catchup with a character that struggled to kill things with minimal skills.

Just do not ASSUME there will be backdated XP unless you read something official on the matter.

Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
...will quickly catchup...

Ryan's "get to level 8" testing of three of the four Roles shows that it's a matter of three-to-seven hours to get all the Achievements needed, so that's not a significant amount of grinding. He did say it feels pretty grindy, though--if you're driving straight through to that target--but at least we know how far away the goal-line is; we also know there'll be more ways to achieve Achievements in the future.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Well, I am officially on my requested vacation... Guess I'll go to my normal Thursday Game tomorrow evening and a Halloween party Friday at the same place (Local Geek Bar called AFK Elixirs and Eatery) I'll just cancel my Monday off... my boss will be very happy, perhaps I won't tell him till I get in on Monday.

Goblin Squad Member

One more positive note: Now I don't have to begin my journey into the world of "Pathfinder Prime" ill. Now I can properly prepare for the start appropriately.

Goblin Squad Member

I dont mind honestly. Paid vacation has to be burned before EOY and a better game with no issues at launch is 100% worth it. I'd rather see the game succeed @ launch :)

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

We are bad mouthing Ryan at the moment in general chat all are welcome ;)

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
We'll have some pretty extensive patch notes. Alpha 11 may actually be the Early Enrollment build. We have to deploy it, then test it to see how it performs under load. So a bunch of stuff that we have on our checklist as requirements to start Early Enrollment will be in that build.

I volunteer to do extensive testing under all sorts of loads.

Goblin Squad Member

Meatballs wrote:
I volunteer to do extensive testing under all sorts of loads.

Does that mean you don't have an account of any kind and are looking for an alpha invite?

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Meatballs wrote:
I volunteer to do extensive testing under all sorts of loads.
Does that mean you don't have an account of any kind and are looking for an alpha invite?

No it means you are playing the game and helping the testers to find the bugs.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
We'll have some pretty extensive patch notes. Alpha 11 may actually be the Early Enrollment build. We have to deploy it, then test it to see how it performs under load. So a bunch of stuff that we have on our checklist as requirements to start Early Enrollment will be in that build.

I'm glad to see you seem to be using Build Numbers instead of dates for release. This is something I had also suggested, to deflect terms such as "delay" or "pushed back". When you use "Builds" you are not limited to the number of sub-builds.

For example, build 11 can have 47 sub builds and take 6 months before you actually launch Early Enrollment, and no one can say you delayed anything.

;-)

BTW, are we going to get a sneak peek at the patch notes??

Goblin Squad Member

Swiss Mercenary wrote:
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Meatballs wrote:
I volunteer to do extensive testing under all sorts of loads.
Does that mean you don't have an account of any kind and are looking for an alpha invite?
No it means you are playing the game and helping the testers to find the bugs.

I got that. The "volunteer" is what made me think that maybe Meatballs wasn't in.

Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
T7V Avari wrote:
Gol Tink wrote:
Good call. I don't think the game is ready yet. Also a good call not to put it at a set date.
I got Friday, Nov 17.

Which year ? Nov 17th is a Monday this year.

I did look up the Hindu Astrology for November 17th it looks auspicious.

Nov.14th!!!

No mess with Nostradomus!

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Remember, remember, the fifth of November.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Neadenil Edam wrote:
...will quickly catchup...
Ryan's "get to level 8" testing of three of the four Roles shows that it's a matter of three-to-seven hours to get all the Achievements needed, so that's not a significant amount of grinding. He did say it feels pretty grindy, though--if you're driving straight through to that target--but at least we know how far away the goal-line is; we also know there'll be more ways to achieve Achievements in the future.

I gave a character with no wizard skills a basic beginner +0 staff and two spells (Wilting Surge for range and Wraiths Cry for melee)then trained arcane attack bonus up a touch and went out killing beginner mobs around TK. He got 21 arcane points in about 5 hours play. He also managed to get a lot of goodies to drop during that time including a couple of spells.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I am glad they are pushing it back. Release EE when it's ready, and not before. I would rather wait until January, than have a bad EE launch.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I applaud intelligent design measures and a desire to release, if not finished product, at least finished enough to run properly. You don't see that much anymore, too many companies rushing crap to market, and then it never performs, ever, to what was advertised. There are a few AAA developers out there that could learn a thing or two from that kind of attitude. Sadly it is also investors that normally drive a game launch into insanity and destroy company good will and the hope of a successful launch.

If it takes a month more, it takes a month more. If this is to succeed it needs that attention to detail and ethics to accomplish that success. Please don't let your desire to 'Play Now!' make you want a rushed job. The flip of that is that if the game is to succeed you need other people willing to play with you, and if their first experience is tainted due to a rushed release in poor state, we ALL suffer for it.

Let them take the time they need, I have had enough of bad management decisions causing good ideas to die.

Goblin Squad Member

I should be happy that the the game will be even more polished before the EE goes live, on the other side I really want to start playing now. :)

Due to the reason that I have waited since the Tech Demo Kickstarter I can wait a bit longer. :P

Goblin Squad Member

Probitas wrote:

...There are a few AAA developers out there that could learn a thing or two from that kind of attitude. Sadly it is also investors that normally drive a game launch into insanity and destroy company good will and the hope of a successful launch.

Agree. The GW decision seems absolutely to be the right one, but it wouldn't one Ryan could make unless there is money for the next month.

Just saying some of those other developers who rush their products don't do it to screw the customers or out of stupidity but because there's no better option.
I guess Ryan and Lisa might be pretty good at expectation management also when it comes to investors.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
We'll have some pretty extensive patch notes. Alpha 11 may actually be the Early Enrollment build. We have to deploy it, then test it to see how it performs under load. So a bunch of stuff that we have on our checklist as requirements to start Early Enrollment will be in that build.

Sounds promising. Thanks.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm very happy to see this news.

I know many of us have extensive experience in this genre and the community of players surrounding it. Delaying and launching a more stable product is so much better in the long run for all parties involved.

Goblin Squad Member

FMS Quietus wrote:

I'm very happy to see this news.

I know many of us have extensive experience in this genre and the community of players surrounding it. Delaying and launching a more stable product is so much better in the long run for all parties involved.

Well said.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
We'll have some pretty extensive patch notes. Alpha 11 may actually be the Early Enrollment build. We have to deploy it, then test it to see how it performs under load. So a bunch of stuff that we have on our checklist as requirements to start Early Enrollment will be in that build.

Ryan,

After you deploy the Alpha 11 update, Lets think about not deploying any new features till EE. Just focus in on what you have now and get it all working correctly. Maybe just stick to graphics updates and bug fixes.

That would be a great way to build confidence in the game.

Once you are relatively bug free. Launch it, and then just add bits here and there. Test the living **** out of it before adding another bit.

Xeen

Goblin Squad Member

I don't understand the expectation that Early Enrollment should be as stable as a fully released, big-budget MMO with a large staff.

PFO is being built on a budget by a very small team. Early Enrollment is when they're going to be developing - and we're going to be testing - all the features they've been telling us about for the last three years.

I don't think it's a good idea to set the expectation that every new content release in Early Enrollment will be free of bugs.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Probitas wrote:

I applaud intelligent design measures and a desire to release, if not finished product, at least finished enough to run properly. You don't see that much anymore, too many companies rushing crap to market, and then it never performs, ever, to what was advertised. There are a few AAA developers out there that could learn a thing or two from that kind of attitude. Sadly it is also investors that normally drive a game launch into insanity and destroy company good will and the hope of a successful launch.

If it takes a month more, it takes a month more. If this is to succeed it needs that attention to detail and ethics to accomplish that success. Please don't let your desire to 'Play Now!' make you want a rushed job. The flip of that is that if the game is to succeed you need other people willing to play with you, and if their first experience is tainted due to a rushed release in poor state, we ALL suffer for it.

Let them take the time they need, I have had enough of bad management decisions causing good ideas to die.

Er, rushing realease with a not finished product is the concept of PFO from day 1. That's the "MVP" idea.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nihimon wrote:

I don't understand the expectation that Early Enrollment should be as stable as a fully released, big-budget MMO with a large staff.

PFO is being built on a budget by a very small team. Early Enrollment is when they're going to be developing - and we're going to be testing - all the features they've been telling us about for the last three years.

I don't think it's a good idea to set the expectation that every new content release in Early Enrollment will be free of bugs.

I think we can make an exception however for EE day 1, Nihimon?

It GW are able to provide a MVP and "1st impressions" that allows players to eg:-

* Form up and organize in their groups
* Do productive things for their groups
* Explore and meet new friends and enemies
* Combat fairly enjoyably
* Update their chars satisfyingly before logging out
* Seeing some sort of change to the world from their collective actions

Then you're going to start with the basic system that says there's a game here that's basic but fun and is going to grow. No doubt there WILL BE server crashes and other bugs during the above, but the above done so that players game time is harvesting PRODUCTIVELY (ie goals and fun and social) irrespective of various issues, then we're off to a flier.

I think under those conditions bugs and set-backs will have a lot more players' good will on credit to see them navigate those rocky shores when more bugs and additions occur later?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nihimon wrote:
I don't understand the expectation that Early Enrollment should be as stable as a fully released, big-budget MMO with a large staff.

Because people will be charged at the same price of a AAA game, maybe.

Normal people don't have expectations based on the budget of the seller, they have expectations based on the price they pay, compared to the quality of the product.

There is a minority of "militant" clients, who will support the product anyway, for various reasons, but that's not the norm.

That's why there isn't a lot of employments in France you know. People want to "buy French", but French is too expensive, so they buy German.

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
I don't understand the expectation that Early Enrollment should be as stable as a fully released, big-budget MMO with a large staff.
Because people will be charged at the same price of a AAA game, maybe.

Has a subscription price been announced somewhere?

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

'Normal' people are not going to line up for an EE offering. The cost being the same as an AAA game as far as monthly fees go is your best argument Audoucet and its a weak one. EE is going to draw that minority who like the IDEA of the product and they form the core that everything else builds around. That's the whole point of crowdforging. Once they monetize our gameplay in EE the additional revenue would allow for the 'wants' we have to be prioritized alongside the 'needs' of the game to be a success come OE. Now each one of us has our own litmus test for when a company is delivering a worthwhile product and you have said your peace, why not just move along and find another community to annoy?

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet I don't think this game is for you. I really feel you don't get this process at all and that is why you rage at it so much. A normal AAA game has years of lead time and tons of cost up front, in addition to the costs of maintaining and updating the game. Thus they need to be able to "prove" to investors their game will be successful first, before they get any money from anyone. Still sometimes a game will flop. The investors loose money and cut their losses and move on. The players are left with a crappy game that eventually dies off.
PFO is trying a different approach by allowing end users to get involved far sooner and help fund the fruition of the game. Goblinworks has said they will make a game that is fairly fun and playable at first and grow it into something that rivals, if not surpasses most AAA games. All while being far less beholden to investors and being far more able to respond to the community and take the game where the developers want it to go. Maybe you or I don't want to go there, we are free to leave at any time. I personally will stick around for a while to see what it can grow into.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Omg, Audoucet is mean, quick, let's troll him for 3 pages before complaining he talks too much !

I don't see how it is annoying, that I just answer to Nihimon when he doesn't understand why people have expectation.

Especially since I don't even criticise GW's choice, since I don't really care to waitfor a game to get better.

Burying your head in the sand will not help PFO. That is not "being annoying", to say that the market doesn't base its opinions thinking about the project, but about what they will pay.

I didn't even try to hurt the game here, geez.

<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:
Has a subscription price been announced somewhere?

I do not know, but I always see people talking about 15$. Maybe it's just a random number.

Goblin Squad Member

Unfortunately every time people engage him in a thread, he turns it to his personal agenda. Let's not dedicate another thread to it.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nihimon wrote:

I don't understand the expectation that Early Enrollment should be as stable as a fully released, big-budget MMO with a large staff.

PFO is being built on a budget by a very small team. Early Enrollment is when they're going to be developing - and we're going to be testing - all the features they've been telling us about for the last three years.

I don't think it's a good idea to set the expectation that every new content release in Early Enrollment will be free of bugs.

I can't speak for Xeen but I do read that he is not suggesting that new features be bug free when they are released. Just that things are taken care of each time? before a bunch of new features are thrown in that bring more bugs.

Since GW does have a small team, it might be a good approach. Bugs, difficult/frustrating interfaces, impossible bottlenecks, etc... It might not be a bad idea to get what they do have in-game working right and easier for players to use and/or figure out.

I can't see much sense in leaving time consuming work behind you when the game will always be starving for new features no matter how many they could realistically add. Keep it lean, polished, and working well. Then it will seem more like an attractive work in progress that it is billed as.

Addendum: I should add that I am perfectly ready (myself) to start playing in a persistant enviroment. I am Alpha Burned. I will keep going because I might be able to help someone (cominging in) from my group or any (doesn't matter at this stage). Yet if they are going to delay, I would love for them to use the time to get what is in, working right! :)

Goblin Squad Member

See that exactly is what you don't seem to get, this game isn't going to be stellar during EE and that was the plan all along. OE is going to be the point Goblinworks is aiming for and most of us are willing to tag along and help get to that point. You aren't Audoucet, we get that.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Jakaal wrote:
See that exactly is what you don't seem to get, this game isn't going to be stellar during EE and that was the plan all along. OE is going to be the point Goblinworks is aiming for and most of us are willing to tag along and help get to that point. You aren't Audoucet, we get that.

I'm not criticising the game, I'm answering to Nihimon. I didn't talk about why I will not play since like 10 days ago.

Goblin Squad Member

<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:
Has a subscription price been announced somewhere?

Ryan said that although realistically the subscription prices should have climbed, they are probably stuck at the same $15.00 everyone else is charging, but that the moment one of the big guys raise their price, pretty much everyone else will, too.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jakaal wrote:
Goblinworks has said they will make a game that is fairly fun and playable at first and grow it...

See, that's where the problem comes from. The game is barely playable, and isn't really fun. Most of the people that want to start now just want to be able to have persistence (i.e. start grinding), while assuming that the game will be playable and fun once the "carrot" of grinding no longer entertains them (or their 3 pre-paid months are up). That's a pretty damned big gamble to make, and I feel it's a foolish one.

As Andius has said multiple times, EE was meant to be feature incomplete, but WORKING. If everything in the current build functioned well, the lack of additional content wouldn't be an issue and people would be singing its praises. The issue is that the large majority of the current systems don't work well, and some of them barely work at all.

Goblin Squad Member

Granted, I've been a big proponent of the AH needing some major upgrades to be even remotely usable, so I totally get that, and agree. I also think the complete lack of any social functions of the game other than the barely working Companies and not really working at all in several settlements is a HUGE no go for EE. To say nothing of the teleports and rollbacks, whatever the cause.
There are issues yes, they are being worked on and EE was not pushed out with the game in it's current state. Thus I am sated (mostly, only ~8hrs notice you're not going into EE was bad form I think) for now.

Goblin Squad Member

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Leithlen wrote:
...and isn't really fun.

You need to append "to me" to that. There are players having fun, so it's not a universal statement of fact.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bringslite wrote:
I don't think it's a good idea to set the expectation that every new content release in Early Enrollment will be free of bugs.
I can't speak for Xeen but I do read that he is not suggesting that new features be bug free when they are released.

First, I didn't quote Xeen because I wasn't really responding to Xeen. This is a sentiment I've expressed a number of times recently in smaller venues, and something I wanted to say here as well.

That said...

Xeen wrote:
Test the living **** out of it before adding another bit.

That seems to suggest that new bits should be fully tested in order to be as bug-free as possible.

Goblinworks has a tremendous amount of work they need to get done in the next year. Expecting them to spend time and resources polishing and testing "the living **** out of" every new content release is not reasonable.

Early Enrollment is not for the masses. It's for fans who understand it's going to be incomplete and buggy, but who want to support the development anyway.


As a programmer, I disagree with that sentiment completely.

Time constraints are no excuse to deploy buggy and/or incomplete code.

Bugs happen, but shrugging off proper QA because of a hectic delivery schedule is just bad policy.

If GoblinWorks lacks the manpower to thoroughly test, and must rely on Alpha testers, then either the Alpha testers suck at testing, or haven't been engaged or instructed enough in how to help.


T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Leithlen wrote:
...and isn't really fun.
You need to append "to me" to that. There are players having fun, so it's not a universal statement of fact.

How about this: since it seems that the majority of players that are introduced to the game and try it find it "not fun", as many frequent posters have mentioned the responses of the many people they've introduced the game to, I'll amend it to: "not fun to most people, even if it's fun for a few die-hards". That's simply not a successful formula for long-term viability. There aren't 10,000 die-hard fans in this community (or even 1,000) that will carry this game through EE if the game isn't fun for a player who is interested, but not a die-hard fan.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
Reasonable response...

I did assume you were responding to Xeen's comment. It seemed to fit the context and the order of posts. My apologies. :)

Xeen wrote:
Test the living **** out of it before adding another bit.

That seems to suggest that new bits should be fully tested in order to be as bug-free as possible.

Goblinworks has a tremendous amount of work they need to get done in the next year. Expecting them to spend time and resources polishing and testing "the living **** out of" every new content release is not reasonable.

Early Enrollment is not for the masses. It's for fans who understand it's going to be incomplete and buggy, but who want to support the development anyway.

There, I also read that he meant that we the alpha players should test the content and features. It was a stretch because it wasn't completely articulated that way, but I think I grasped his intent. Maybe, maybe not...

EE is (hopefully) expected/desired/projected to grow to a population of 20,000? I feel like a bit of polish, intuitive all around features and systems, and working features (rather than more features first) might come close to attracting that many. We maybe feel differently there. That is ok.

Goblin Squad Member

Leithlen wrote:
...many frequent posters have mentioned the responses of the many people they've introduced the game to...

Unfortunately, several, if not many, of the people pointing out the trouble they're having engaging others are also among the more-vocal of us about PFO's short-comings. It's thus difficult to imagine they're being enthusiastic in the sales-job they're doing; have they begun establishing an expectation in the mind of the visitor before that visit begins?

PFO isn't, as most of us appear to agree, for everyone in its current, or its near-future, state. That says little, right now, about whether it will be of interest to more players as more gets added.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nihimon wrote:
Early Enrollment is not for the masses. It's for fans who understand it's going to be incomplete and buggy, but who want to support the development anyway.

That is the goal, yes, but the problem is perception.

EE access is 100$ with 3 months of game time. A classic MMO is 60$ with 1 month, you can add 30$ for the 2 additional months, and you get 90$. So 100$ is really not a "big" price, at least, not enough in my opinion to discourage the base client to play the game.

For GW's strategy to work, there must be hype for the OE. Not the EE. But how do you create hype, for a totally arbitrary date ? At the first interest for PFO, the classic player will just buy EE. Or EE2, which is cheap.

If only backers could play the game, well that is something else, there will be indeed an "opening" date. But while indeed, EE shouldn't be for the masses, there is absolutely nothing enforcing that now. Especially because most people will see the incentive of XP, to play before OE.

Will they be wrong ? Yeah, probably. Will they do it anyway ? ... Probably.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Xeen wrote:
Test the living **** out of it before adding another bit.

That seems to suggest that new bits should be fully tested in order to be as bug-free as possible.

Goblinworks has a tremendous amount of work they need to get done in the next year. Expecting them to spend time and resources polishing and testing "the living **** out of" every new content release is not reasonable.

Early Enrollment is not for the masses. It's for fans who understand it's going to be incomplete and buggy, but who want to support the development anyway.

It is completely reasonable. The game is supposed to be light on content and bug free. That is what was sold. It is not supposed to be incomplete and buggy. Incomplete yes, buggy no.

They can do this with a small staff. They can release new content, even in EE, but get it complete and working before moving on to the next.

Doc has it right. As a programmer myself (granted in another venue), If I release an update and it does not work properly I am to fix it before moving on. That is how programming is done. You have said that you are a programmer as well, and if so I do not understand why you do not get this.

Implement something, make sure it works as it is supposed to, make sure it is interactive with the user as much as possible, test it some more, then move on.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
Reasonable response...

I did assume you were responding to Xeen's comment. It seemed to fit the context and the order of posts. My apologies. :)

Xeen wrote:
Test the living **** out of it before adding another bit.

That seems to suggest that new bits should be fully tested in order to be as bug-free as possible.

Goblinworks has a tremendous amount of work they need to get done in the next year. Expecting them to spend time and resources polishing and testing "the living **** out of" every new content release is not reasonable.

Early Enrollment is not for the masses. It's for fans who understand it's going to be incomplete and buggy, but who want to support the development anyway.

There, I also read that he meant for we the alpha players should test the content and features. It was a stretch because it wasn't completely articulated that way, but I think I grasped his intent. Maybe, maybe not...

EE is (hopefully) expected/desired/projected to grow to a population of 20,000? I feel like a bit of polish, intuitive all around features and systems, and working features (rather than more features first) might come close to attracting that many. We maybe feel differently there. That is ok.

You understood exactly what I was saying.

51 to 100 of 195 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Licensed Products / Digital Games / Pathfinder Online / Goblinworks Blog: Early Enrollment "Hold" All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.