Making batman


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Liberty's Edge

I've gotta agree with Sauce987654321 on this one.

1st to 5th level is 'real world humans'. Most mooks are not level 5, those are elite mooks, the cream of the crop, most are level 2-3.

6th-10th is either 'best real world people ever' at the low end (Miyamato Musashi, or Simo Häyhä, for example), or 'action movie hero' at the higher end, and more than sufficient for Indiana Jones, James Bond, or John McClain. Or even The Bride from Kill Bill (though she'd be right on the edge at level 10).

11th level plus basically makes you a superhero, with a few 'street level' heroes like Daredevil maybe a bit lower. But the X-Men? 11-14 or so. The Avengers? 13-15, plus templates and Mythic. The Justice League? Around the same as the Avengers, maybe a level or two higher depending.

Liberty's Edge

Sauce987654321 wrote:
Yeah, I don't recall the cloverfield monster being big enough to devour something like that whole. You might not be remembering the creature too well.

Y'know what? this is really off-topic, I'm just gonna drop it. Maybe you're even right and I'm misremembering.

The Crusader wrote:

Once again, it's just kind of - "If you say so..."

I'm sure you can cite some example of him putting General Zod, Black Adam, and the Spectre in simultaneous choke holds wearing nothing but a unitard and a cowl. But, there are plenty of occasions where he barely maintains consciousness to make it back to the cave, or has to hide in some bolt hole to avoid being caught, or has to break into a clinic or vet to suture himself up, all while patrolling the streets Gotham, facing regular, non-super (though maybe costumed) thugs.

If they're, y'know, a named villain...who says they're low level? The Joker is obviously on par with Batman, and normal police seem singularly unable to cope with even people like The Penguin or The Riddler...that screams high level on their part, not low level.

Frankly, at 5th level...the police wouldn't need Batman, they'd be almost as good investigators as he is, and a couple of them (at level 3) probably equally good in a fight. Since neither of these things are true...

The Crusader wrote:
And frankly, it's a little ridiculous to say, "He doesn't use gimmicks and gadgets, he uses ingenuity and equipment."

That's not what I said. I said he used ingenuity, social skills, and the knowledge skills necessary to pick the right equipment. Those latter two are only allowed by higher level, and the last is necessary for the equipment to be actually useful.


You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.

Liberty's Edge

Sauce987654321 wrote:

You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.

Sure. But if Batman is Mythic, clearly so are his peers. Indeed, he's likely lower-tier than basically any other member of the Justice League, and than many of his foes. So...he still needs high level to be better than them and the foes they face.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

You don't need to be high level to get high skill rolls with mythic and hero points around. You can easily get as high as a 50+ charisma skill check at first level by using display of charisma, use a hero point for a +8, plus your charisma modifier and a mythic feat to allow an auto 20.

I'm not saying batman is first level, but I wanted to make a point about skills.

Sure. But if Batman is Mythic, clearly so are his peers. Indeed, he's likely lower-tier than basically any other member of the Justice League, and than many of his foes. So...he still needs high level to be better than them and the foes they face.

I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.

Liberty's Edge

Sauce987654321 wrote:
I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.

That's fair. At least depending on what you mean by 'lower level'. The version of Batman from 'The Dark Knight', in Pathfinder, is likely an 8th to 9th level Gestalt Brawler/Slayer (not an Investigator basically because he lacks anywhere near the gadgetry of most other versions) with a few shiny toys...but that's hardly the definitive version of the character, IMO.

And he's in a world where most other people max out at 6th level for the most part, and are usually lower, with a few individual and very specific exceptions like The Joker or Bane (who are on par with him). The world likely caps at 10th or so as a hard limit.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I'm not really going to try to pinpoint comic book Batman's CR, because I know it's all over the place and would be constantly fluctuating. Movie Batman, especially the current ones, he would definitely be lower level with no mythic tiers.

That's fair. At least depending on what you mean by 'lower level'. The version of Batman from 'The Dark Knight', in Pathfinder, is likely an 8th to 9th level Gestalt Brawler/Slayer (not an Investigator basically because he lacks anywhere near the gadgetry of most other versions) with a few shiny toys...but that's hardly the definitive version of the character, IMO.

And he's in a world where most other people max out at 6th level for the most part, and are usually lower, with a few individual and very specific exceptions like The Joker or Bane (who are on par with him). The world likely caps at 10th or so as a hard limit.

I don't see a reason for him to be a Gestalt. If I thought he should be a Gestalt, then I don't see any reason not to make any other character from any movie a Gestalt as well. Multiclass, sure.

As for a level. Like 4-6 maybe? I put him there because I don't think he would be a good match alone against a huge sized dinosaur, like a triceratops. I mean if he was outmatched by bane at one point, I don't see why he would be able to hold his own against something like 2 pyrohydras or an oliphant from LOTR (elephant with the giant template, maybe advanced).


First of all, to do Batman you need to create a special archetype based on the Investigator. The special part is that, instead of Infusions, he has Gadgets. Like Infusions, these tend to be one shot things that other people generally can not use, it is just that are in solid form, and probably have a different spell list.

Second, I looked at the Brawler Shield Champion and said, "Hey, it's Captain America."

Liberty's Edge

Sauce987654321 wrote:
I don't see a reason for him to be a Gestalt. If I thought he should be a Gestalt, then I don't see any reason not to make any other character from any movie a Gestalt as well. Multiclass, sure.

Yeah, okay, that's probably fair.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
As for a level. Like 4-6 maybe? I put him there because I don't think he would be a good match alone against a huge sized dinosaur, like a triceratops. I mean if he was outmatched by bane at one point, I don't see why he would be able to hold his own against something like 2 pyrohydras or an oliphant from LOTR (elephant with the giant template, maybe advanced).

Eh. Maybe. I'd peg him as a little more than what's humanly capable in the real world, which I usually put at level 6 or 7.

AlanDG2 wrote:
First of all, to do Batman you need to create a special archetype based on the Investigator. The special part is that, instead of Infusions, he has Gadgets. Like Infusions, these tend to be one shot things that other people generally can not use, it is just that are in solid form, and probably have a different spell list.

I basically agree with this, I just feel that the diferent list (while ideal) isn't necessary per se, and the solid form thing is more flavor than rules.

AlanDG2 wrote:
Second, I looked at the Brawler Shield Champion and said, "Hey, it's Captain America."

Well, yeah. Maybe with a Paladin dip. :)


How could Batman have a low level with all of the XP he must have accrued? Consider how many CR appropriate encounters he has participated in.


Melkiador wrote:
How could Batman have a low level with all of the XP he must have accrued? Consider how many CR appropriate encounters he has participated in.

We were talking about movie batman (dark knight) on this page, not the comic one.


I would peg Dark Knight Batman as a level 6 or 7 Empiricist Sleuth//Ninja 25 point-buy.


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Well, our group (especially me) doesn't have all the latest and greatest books and sources, nor do we use all the fancy stuff; we're really old school (Core Rulebook, APG, some ARG and Ultimate sources), but I've been working on some conversions (I've been wanting to do Batman since 2nd Ed. ADnD):

Batman: currently in the Council of Thieves AP as Lord Bruno Leroung, half-elf son of a Leroung scion and an elven paramour. Richest guy in Westcrown; only 3rd level still, but Rogue (Investigator) 1/Monk 2 (LN), and likely to stay Monk the rest of the way. Finally got at least one rank point in every skill that was previously Not Useable Untrained, since that's the way he rolls: La Conoscenza e Potere ("Knowledge is Power"). ;-> Oh, and as he's going after the Shadows plaguing the city (they slew his parents in front of him when he was a child...), he's not going to impress them as a Creature of the Night, but just exactly the opposite as Il Angelo del Notte (complete with fireworks, everburning torches, whatever else would create light, fire, brightness [and he could make with Craft: Alchemy], and give the impression that the good deities have sent one of their servants down to deal with this situation personally...just before he deals with them using whatever special material weapons he can afford [yes]). This angel of the night loves Handy Haversacks and Sleight of Hand. ;->

Also played in CoT: Thordis Odinsdottir, Ulfen-born, Cheliax-raised, NG Stormborn Sorceress (3rd). Seems human (and would "test" as such, if we had that ability), until you realize she can see pretty far in complete darkness and can blast foes with daylight once a day as well as with sonics and electricity. Spent her first level feat on getting Martial Weapon Proficiency: Warhammer; it's only 5 pounds, so she can "call it to her" with Mage Hand. Her Profession is Carpenter; her Craft, Woodcarving...it's a bit big for a mere tool, but she likes it. ;->

I was contemplating playing a very young (like, 1 XP into 1st level) human Cavalier in CoT: LG, of the Order of the Star, of Aroden's faith, youngest Captain in his generation, one Stefano Rogeri, from 100 years ago. His group wasn't in a position to save the deity, but he got caught in a time-warp of some sort at about the same time...after emerging into present-day Cheliax, he would finally come to grips with Aroden's loss, and would then go into the Order of the Shield... ;->

Soon to be played in Legacy of Fire: Talib (Scholar) Butrus Ben Nur, a healer-type Alchemist, seemingly human, but can occasionally get to be a very mean, very ugly drunk at times, especially around gnolls...they don't want to make him angry. Especially not at higher levels... ;-> I may shift the good Captain over to LoF somehow; we're still looking at tentative character selection there. ;->

LB


Oh, quick question: what everyone's calling "gestalt" rules, isn't that roughly the same as doing a 0th/0th level class combo at 1st, rather than one class at first, then the next at second? By the time your 0th/0ths get to 2nd level, they, too, will be 1st something/1st something elses. It's from an old, old DnD idea, where you choose one class to be the "primary" one for hit points, skill points, etc. (and the other one will likely be the focus the next time the character levels, until they're even), but you get the BAB, Saves, etc. as additive (they stack). Granted, at 1st level, the old method doesn't have all the skills, abilities, spells, etc.; if you were to do, say, a Wizard 0/Cleric 0 (apprentice levels) at 1st level, you'd get Cantrips and Orisons until you got to 2nd level.

LB


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Lady Bluehawk wrote:
Batman: currently in the Council of Thieves AP as Lord Bruno Leroung, half-elf son of a Leroung scion and an elven paramour. Richest guy in Westcrown; only 3rd level still, but Rogue (Investigator) 1/Monk 2 (LN), and likely to stay Monk the rest of the way. Finally got at least one rank point in every skill that was previously Not Useable Untrained, since that's the way he rolls: La Conoscenza e Potere ("Knowledge is Power"). ;-> Oh, and as he's going after the Shadows plaguing the city (they slew his parents in front of him when he was a child...), he's not going to impress them as a Creature of the Night, but just exactly the opposite as Il Angelo del Notte (complete with fireworks, everburning torches, whatever else would create light, fire, brightness [and he could make with Craft: Alchemy], and give the impression that the good deities have sent one of their servants down to deal with this situation personally...just before he deals with them using whatever special material weapons he can afford [yes]). This angel of the night loves Handy Haversacks and Sleight of Hand. ;->

While I praise your decision to use Italian phrases, I must slightly correct your grammar. ^^

La Conoscenza è Potere ("e" without emphasis means "and", not "is")
L'Angelo della Notte (male nouns beginning with a wovel require the determined article "lo" truncated with apostrophe; "notte" is a female noun and requires the female articulated preposition)

...and Batman should be a combination of Investigator/Slayer/Ninja for me. Not Shwashbuckler. He's not jolly and boisterous enough. Maybe an Amateur Swashbuckler.


No Lady Bluehawk, we're generally referring to these alternative rules from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana book. It's a high powered option generally intended for smaller groups so that missing roles can be filled. The standard notation was to use double forward slashes (//) to show the division between the two "halves" of the gestalt.

Going back to my earlier estimation of the Nolan-verse Batman at the time of "The Dark Knight" as approximately a level 6 or 7 (let's use 6 for simplicity's sake) Empiricist Sleuth//Ninja. At level 6 he has a BAB of +4, +2 Fort Saves, +5 Reflex and Will Saves, and all the abilities of a 6th level Investigator with the Empiricist and Sleuth archetypes, as well as all the abilities of a 6th level Ninja.

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