Making batman


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In my opinion batman would have to be an investigator. Probably with plenty of brawler levels too though. But is there any conflict in this build? Primarily with the armor profiency and wearability.

Sczarni

As much as I would love to agree with Investigator... they stink in combat. The "Intelligence" side of it matches up perfectly with Batman though.

I'd honestly see him as more of a Ninja, since he was partially taught/raised by them and all.

Sovereign Court

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Which incarnation of Batman are you trying to make? The recent movies' version? The Adam West version? The silver age of comics version? The 1930's version?

The class/classes could change considerably from incarnation to incarnation.


I think you need to decide what part of Batman you want to preserve. If it is the always relevant utility know it all part then a wizard or a arcanist is the way. If it is the running around hitting stuf with homemade weapons wile dressed like a bat and doing detektiver stuff then investigator May be Perfect. If it is the greatest martialartist in the DC univers stuff you want to focus on that in the whole build.


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20 Investigator
20 Monk
20 Wizard
20 Ninja
1,000,000,000,000,000gp Character wealth.

Batman built.

Alternatively

Commoner 1
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000pp Character wealth

Problem is batman is defined by his character wealth. There is no real way to simulate that without giving the PC absurd wealth.

Sovereign Court

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Considering batman's reliance upon gadgets - I'd say that the closest thing would be the old 3.5 Artificer class as the primary class, with some brawler and/or slayer thrown in for good measure.

But really - Pathfinder isn't a very good system in which to build Batman.


yeah.. batman is hard to do in this.

You could do pre52 Robin(s) much easier due to them relying less on tech and money than Batman does (since they have teams).

Closest I can think of would have to be gesult built

Scarab Sages

If I absolutely had to make Bats in pathfinder, I think I would go with a Slayer, using the Irori combat style to fight unarmed, and then using enforcer + Shatter Defenses + Sap master to knock out foes fast.


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Which incarnation of Batman are you trying to make? The recent movies' version? The Adam West version? The silver age of comics version? The 1930's version?

The class/classes could change considerably from incarnation to incarnation.

I like the inquisitor for the more 'dangling people off roof tops' version of the recent movies.

That sweet, sweet scaling bonus to intimidate is a bit hard to pass up.


Lol! Everybody is right. That's what makes Batman so cool.

Basically, he has to be able to notice stuff, be smart, throw a "flurry of stars", jump, climb and punch - the rest, opinion, is all attitude. Maybe try to multi class Investigator and Slayer? You could also do your own gestalt build.

If you are actually playing this then you probably can't have Bruce's zillion gold pieces, but you might be able to get a social role (justice, magistrate, secret police) that infers resources w GM cooperation.

He wears light armor, which shouldn't be an issue for most classes, but it is high-tech so analogously magical. Start with studded leather and a dueling cloak, and work up to blackened elven mithral chain and a stealth enchantment on the cloak perhaps?

Shadow Lodge

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Batman's class is Mary Sue.


The point behind batman is he uses his ingenuity, not any kind of super power.

So immediately, throw out all magical or supernatural powers.

Investigator (Sleuth) could work. But, I think Batman would be a Brawler/Investigator Gestalt.


Kthulhu wrote:
Batman's class is Mary Sue.

Now now, he has crippling issues with his interpersonal relations, and you could say that he has an compulsive obsession with his fears.

Yes, he is dominated by fear: he took his role because he feared that others would go through the same tragedy he went through. He does it himself since he fears that others will fall to the corruption of the system.

He is crazy prepared because he always fears that the enemy will do something outside of his expectations. He even prepares counter measures against the other heroes on the off chance there is another 'SHOCKING ISSUE: SUPERMAN KILLS EVERYONE (AGAIN)'.

But then again- yeah, with his actual combat and crime fighting skills, he is the posterboy of 'rich boy superhero with too much time on his hands'.

EDIT- Issac Daneil: while that is a cool thing about him...in this setting, magic is basically the science of the world. At least to some extent (yeah....lets ignore a certain robot infested region.....). Instead of being a case of some power granted by a meteor/ancient alien race/artifact/random god hobo, he could get it by 'looking at the books in the town library'. Random street performers can use magic. Being the greatest detective and not having detect magic.....just doesn't seem right in this game.


The Investigator is the closest to Batman as far as classes go, he's not the "World's Greatest Detective" for nothing. Plus many of the Talents gained are all part of his repertoire. Disabling foes by exploiting weaknesses (modifications to Studied Strike), expertise in nearly every field (modifications Inspiration), heck even the alchemist formulas and talents work because of his knowledge of chemistry.

As for archetypes, the only ones that don't work are Spiritualist (Supernatural powers) and Steel Hound (Guns).

For equipment, light armor and gauntlets or unarmed strikes, but a rapier or sword cane works too, as he's crossed blades with Ra's al Ghul many times. Use the starknife's (may need a feat) stats as a reference for the batarang, and the rest of the gadgets can be replicated with other items. May need to multiclass to improve combat viability. Brawler or the Monk's Martial Artist archetype are your best bet.

Distribute your skill points however the situation requires, but give special attention to Acrobatics, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Perception, and most importantly, Stealth.

Your talent selection is once again, heavily dependent on the situation. Go with whatever works, but avoid poison based talents, that's more Joker than Dark Knight.

If you feel like going crazy consult the Technology Guide and all its wonderful toys, especially if you want to build Batman Beyond or use the powered armor from The Dark Knight Returns or Kingdom Come.

Liberty's Edge

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
As much as I would love to agree with Investigator... they stink in combat. The "Intelligence" side of it matches up perfectly with Batman though.

I...what? Investigators are very good combatants. Studied Combat is amazing. Investigators at 20th, wind up with +25 to hit, +10 damage from Studied Combat and alone, while Fighters get only +25 to hit, +8 damage from class features and Fighter-only Feats. That's not counting any other Class Features an Investigator gets, not even Inspiration.

That said, I'd be inclined to make Batman a Gestalt character and, as suggested by Isaac Daneil above, a Brawler/Investigator (probably an Empiricist) sounds perfect thematically, as well as really powerful.

In terms of the 'toys' angle, I feel like Extracts cover that pretty well with a little reflavoring, and you can add on maxed out UMD to make up any differences.


Imbicatus wrote:
If I absolutely had to make Bats in pathfinder, I think I would go with a Slayer, using the Irori combat style to fight unarmed, and then using enforcer + Shatter Defenses + Sap master to knock out foes fast.

This is pretty much what I would do. Studied target simulates batman's power to plan. And you have a lot of skills to be a know it all.


I'd probably go something akin to:

Human Ninja 2/Snakebite Striker Brawler 2/Ranger 1/Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor X


Batman, Superman, Wolverine, Spider-Man... the vast majority of Superheroes are going to be a Brawler by default, and almost all are well over Lv20 (usually around 25-30)

Even Wonder Woman is likely a Brawler/Martial Master Multiclass character.

A choice few, like Iron Fist (Monk), Doctor Fate (Arcanist), etc. aren't, but the end result is that most of the combat-centered characters are Brawlers

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
If I absolutely had to make Bats in pathfinder, I think I would go with a Slayer, using the Irori combat style to fight unarmed, and then using enforcer + Shatter Defenses + Sap master to knock out foes fast.
This is pretty much what I would do. Studied target simulates batman's power to plan. And you have a lot of skills to be a know it all.

Investigator does it all better. Well, not Sap Master, but that's not strictly necessary. Damage might be slightly less, but not a whole lot, and Studied Combat is a much closer thematic fit.

chbgraphicarts wrote:

Batman, Superman, Wolverine, Spider-Man... the vast majority of Superheroes are going to be a Brawler by default, and almost all are well over Lv20 (usually around 25-30)

Even Wonder Woman is likely a Brawler/Martial Master Multiclass character.

A choice few, like Iron Fist (Monk), Doctor Fate (Arcanist), etc. aren't, but the end result is that most of the combat-centered characters are Brawlers

Eh. There's some truth in the Brawler thing, though it's not as universal as you're implying (it's probably true of 1 out of 4 of the Fantastic Four, for example, and Wolverine's clearly a Beast Totem Barbarian)...which is why I'd go Gestalt, since a lot of them should have other Classes as well.

And over 20th level isn't necessary at all. I was easily able to make the movie Avengers at CR 13-20 or so, and that was with Mythic and Thor being a custom variety of Outsider. Mythic, however is an excellent idea and reflects the superhero genre fairly well.

So, in summary, I wouldn't make comic book superheroes quite that high level, but would make them Gestalt (to properly represent them) and throw on Mythic to make them appropriately powerful.


Investigator has the unBatman alchemy in it though.

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:
Investigator has the unBatman alchemy in it though.

Batman makes his own gadgets. Re-flavoring the alchemy to that is really easy.


Melkiador wrote:
Investigator has the unBatman alchemy in it though.

Batman is a skilled chemist. Where do you think he gets the antidote for Poison Ivy's toxins and Joker's venom? Reflavoring would be required, but Bat-alchemy is still in the realm of possibility.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheDisgaean wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Investigator has the unBatman alchemy in it though.
Batman is a skilled chemist. Where do you think he gets the antidote for Poison Ivy's toxins and Joker's venom? Reflavoring would be required, but Bat-alchemy is still in the realm of possibility.

Actual pathfinder alchemy fits really well. The pseudo magic of the alchemist and investigator infusions dont work at all in my opinion. Its something very different and represents a kind of behavior that doesn't suit gadgets or tools. It ofcourse depends on your batman incarnation, but if the gadgets are his usual utlilty belt loadout from say the 90's cartoons, I would go with the alchemical archer from rogue genius games 'archer archetypes product'.

It allows infusions to be integrated with alchemical weapons (as well as grappling hooks) who's dcs scale with the archer's level and stats. Go down the list of alchemical weapons from ultimate equipment and make a shuriken with each of them, and you have your utility belt full of special batterangs, along with alchemical remidies, and a few other items, maybe go with ninja, or monk, and boom, batman, or at least batman as I remember him as a kid (again primarily from the 90's cartoon)


My money would be down for a lv15 Brawler, lv15 Slayer

(Improved Unarmed Strike), (Two-Weapon Fighting), (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting), (Track), Skill Focus [Intimidate], Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, Distance Thrower, Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Standstill, Technologist, Craft Technological Item, Antagonize, Enforcer, Intimidating Prowess, Persuasive, Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Master, Shot on the Run, Weapon Focus [Shuriken], Weapon Focus [Unarmed], Greater Weapon Focus [Unarmed], Power Attack

Talents: Master of Disguise, Trapfinding, Fast Stealth, Unwitting Ally, Sniper's Eye

Major Skills: Climb, Craft (Alchemy), Craft (Mechanical), Knowledge (Alchemy), Knowledge (Engineering), Stealth, Bluff, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Survival, Acrobatics, Disable Device, Perception, Disguise, Slight of Hand, Escape Artist,

Minor Skills: Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Religion), Heal, Ride, Handle Animal, Diplomacy

Martial Flexibility: Two-Weapon Feint, Improved Two-Weapon Feint

KEY:
(Class-granted feat)
Bonus Feat


Kolokotroni wrote:
TheDisgaean wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Investigator has the unBatman alchemy in it though.
Batman is a skilled chemist. Where do you think he gets the antidote for Poison Ivy's toxins and Joker's venom? Reflavoring would be required, but Bat-alchemy is still in the realm of possibility.
Actual pathfinder alchemy fits really well. The pseudo magic of the alchemist and investigator infusions dont work at all in my opinion. Its something very different and represents a kind of behavior that doesn't suit gadgets or tools.

Exactly. It's not as if a slayer can't take the craft(alchemy) skill to simulate that part of Batman.

Batman is known for planning, fighting, skills and gadgets. The slayer is good at most of these. Gadgets are basically just magic items, and depending on the Batman incarnation he doesn't even make most of his own stuff. Most of Batman's toys are Wayne Tech R&D.

Liberty's Edge

Kolokotroni wrote:
Actual pathfinder alchemy fits really well. The pseudo magic of the alchemist and investigator infusions dont work at all in my opinion. Its something very different and represents a kind of behavior that doesn't suit gadgets or tools.

By default? Sure...but reflavoring is a thing. Spider Climb, Fly, Keen Senses...many Infusions are easy to reflavor as gadgets.

Now, you do also need to use some magic items to fill things out, but UMD is an Investigator skill, so that works out okay. And some of that is necessary for all Paizo Classes...and much less so for the Investigator.

Besides which, every other facet of the Investigator is absolutely perfect for Batman (Inspiration and Studied Combat are made for him, just for example).

Dark Archive

The Answer has been here all along; Mysterious Avenger swashbuckler, dipping in rouge.


Honestly, I wouldn't put Batman anywhere over level 5. Maybe not even that high.

He just needs bajillions in wealth and kingdom resources, better gear than you have in an epic/mythic/gestalt//broken game, some means of bypassing level requirements for crafting some things, and insanely high skills for his level, starting with UMD.

He's not especially powerful. He's just well-prepared.


Batman is among the top martial artists in his world. He's at least in the teens. Just because most of Batman's teammates are using Mythic++ rules, doesn't mean that Batman isn't high level.


Melkiador wrote:
Batman is among the top martial artists in his world. He's at least in the teens. Just because most of Batman's teammates are using Mythic++ rules, doesn't mean that Batman isn't high level.

If you say so...

He pretty regularly gets severely injured by regular, non-mythic dogs, or low-level thugs, or short guys with umbrellas. His resources are the only thing that let him play in the top tier sandbox.

I would say he probably has a mythic tier or two. But, he's low level.


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Most of the DC heroes are over lv20. Most are closer to lv30.

The example I presented accounts for nearly everything Batman does on a fairly regular basis - his expertise with batarangs (shuriken) is better than most olympic snipers, and he is one of the top martial artists in the world.

Dick, who is considered to be a far-and-away better fighter than Bruce, is probably closer to a full lv20 Brawler with 5-10 Cavelier levels.

Tim is probably more max levels in Slayer, with several levels in Rogue (especially Detective), since he's a significantly worse fighter than either Dick or Bruce, but is easily the best at forensic chemistry, pathology, and psychology (making him, at around age 16-18, one of the best, or arguable THE best, detectives in the world).

Jason, like Dick, is actually a better fighter than Bruce, but his focus is more brutal, meaning he's probably 20 levels in Slayer, plus 10 levels in Assassin.

Barbara is an Acrobat Rogue and Skirmisher. Her emphasis has always been on acrobatics, and is a computer savant.

Cassandra is probably a Slayer/Barbarian of various mixes

Selena is a lv20 Cutpurse, lv10 Master Spy.

Stephanie is a Martial Artist, with maybe some levels in Skirmisher.

And Damien is likely a Barbarian/Slayer.

---

On the opposite end of things, Bane is definitely a Brawler/Barbarian - Mutagen + Rage = BREAK YOU!


The Crusader wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Batman is among the top martial artists in his world. He's at least in the teens. Just because most of Batman's teammates are using Mythic++ rules, doesn't mean that Batman isn't high level.

If you say so...

He pretty regularly gets severely injured by regular, non-mythic dogs, or low-level thugs, or short guys with umbrellas. His resources are the only thing that let him play in the top tier sandbox.

I would say he probably has a mythic tier or two. But, he's low level.

Batman goes toe-to-toe with cosmic beings that give the rest of the JLU a hard time. They're still hard for him, but Batman is one of the most capable members of the Justice League, and is considered one of the top three, along with a Kryptonian and the Daughter of Zeus.

Batman is over lv20. They just all play with Wounds & Vitality, and Clark & Diana have DR, so critical hits still hurt Bruce.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
The Crusader wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Batman is among the top martial artists in his world. He's at least in the teens. Just because most of Batman's teammates are using Mythic++ rules, doesn't mean that Batman isn't high level.

If you say so...

He pretty regularly gets severely injured by regular, non-mythic dogs, or low-level thugs, or short guys with umbrellas. His resources are the only thing that let him play in the top tier sandbox.

I would say he probably has a mythic tier or two. But, he's low level.

Batman goes toe-to-toe with cosmic beings that give the rest of the JLU a hard time. They're still hard for him, but Batman is one of the most capable members of the Justice League, and is considered one of the top three, along with a Kryptonian and the Daughter of Zeus.

Batman is over lv20. They just all play with Wounds & Vitality, and Clark & Diana have DR, so critical hits still hurt Bruce.

Cosmic beings like the one who makes up riddles? Or the one whose cosmic power is getting half his face burned off?

Batman never goes "toe-to-toe" with anyone. If anything, he goes "toe-to-Achilles'-heel". That's his whole schtick. Fear, stealth, ambush, distraction, investigation, and just the right tool for the job.

Look, I have no idea how you could go about statting up most of the Justice League with Pathfinder rules. You probably definitely need gestalt and mythic options. You will likely have to break a few rules, or accept some shortcomings on what you come up with. But, to me, Batman is best characterized as a level 5-ish ninja/something with deity level equipment, crazy good stealth, intimidate, and knowledges, and a haversack full of wish scrolls with the UMD to make it all work. YMMV...


So from what I'm reading is that every impressive comic book character is around level 30, as if it's impossible to represent any of them using levels below 20 and maybe using mythic. Including batman being level 30.

That would mean batman can survive being submerged in lava naked.

Possibly Beat godzilla using melee only.

Fall off the Empire State Building several times and be fine.

Go hand-to-hand with multiple giant monsters at the same time, like the cloverfield monster and win (which is around the same CR as a thunder behemoth, CR 18) or pin something like 1998 godzilla to the ground with his hand tied behind his back.

Which, IMO, according to these levels tossed around would make Bane capable of these things, too.

I haven't been keeping up with batman recently so I don't know if he can do these things. If you guys really say so then I can't argue with it.


I think it has more to do with a belief that "Higher Level = Better", and Batman is awesome, therefore must be of a correspondingly high level.

I've always thought that the best part of Batman as a character, was that he wasn't extraordinary. Dedicated and disciplined to a degree that makes obsession seem like lethargy... but not "Super" in any way. Once again, YMMV...

Liberty's Edge

The Crusader wrote:
Cosmic beings like the one who makes up riddles? Or the one whose cosmic power is getting half his face burned off?

No. Cosmic beings like Darkseid. Who has a literally undodgeable attack that Batman has successfully dodged in at least one continuity.

The Crusader wrote:
Batman never goes "toe-to-toe" with anyone. If anything, he goes "toe-to-Achilles'-heel". That's his whole schtick. Fear, stealth, ambush, distraction, investigation, and just the right tool for the job.

Right...and because of how skills work in Pathfinder to do things like sneak and investigate better than Superman, or Wonder Woman, or Green Lantern he needs to be within a few levels of them.

Look at it this way, Superman clearly has maxed Perception (and, indeed, likely some permanent version of Keen Senses for a +20 on top of that)...but Batman can (at least sometimes) sneak up on him. Items, Feats, and other stuff can only go so far in making that true.

This is a huge flaw in the system in many ways, but if you wanna talk about converting a skill-focused character, it's one that needs to be acknowledged.

The Crusader wrote:
Look, I have no idea how you could go about statting up most of the Justice League with Pathfinder rules. You probably definitely need gestalt and mythic options. You will likely have to break a few rules, or accept some shortcomings on what you come up with. But, to me, Batman is best characterized as a level 5-ish ninja/something with deity level equipment, crazy good stealth, intimidate, and knowledges, and a haversack full of wish scrolls with the UMD to make it all work. YMMV...

In order to be well-nigh superhumanly good at Stealth, Intimidate, and Knowledges...he needs to be high level. Because that's how Pathfinder works.

Batman's clearly lower level than the other JLA members (or otherwise less powerful)...but that's not to say he's low level.

Personally, I'd put Superman at 15th level Gestalt character or so, 8th Mythic Tier or so, PC Wealth, and give him a Template from Hell (DR is just the beginning...call it a +5 CR, probably combining elements of the Agile and Invincible Mythic Templates, plus huge bonuses to Str and Con, plus Fly speed and other stuff). This'd make him CR 25 or so.

Batman, meanwhile, would also be 15th level or so, Gestalt Investigator/Brawler, with 2-4 Mythic tiers, the Advanced Simple Template, and way above PC Wealth. His CR is quite a bit lower (at 20-ish), but his skills are vastly better and he has other tricks up his sleeve. Yes, he sometimes has trouble with human foes...but so? Who says those aren't really high level humans? I mean, Lex Luthor, who regularly fights Superman, is scared of the Joker, and for good reason.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
So from what I'm reading is that every impressive comic book character is around level 30, as if it's impossible to represent any of them using levels below 20 and maybe using mythic. Including batman being level 30.

Yeah, 30 is really excessive, IMO.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
That would mean batman can survive being submerged in lava naked.

This is a problem with Pathfinder: The greatest of any profession in the world must be high level...therefore he can be submerged in lava naked. Seriously...the best Chef in the world? 20th level Expert, 90 HP with Con 10. Or maybe lower level but Mythic, which causes its own problems.

This is certainly a problem, but if you really want to make him the World's Greatest Detective, it's one you gotta live with.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
Possibly Beat godzilla using melee only.

Again, true of level 30, not level 15 as I suggest (Godzila is explicitly CR 29-30...his expy King Mogaru is CR 29).

Sauce987654321 wrote:
Fall off the Empire State Building several times and be fine.

Same as the lava thing...this is inevitable with any competent character in Pathfinder.

Also...I see no reason Batman couldn't survive this. Narratively, he'd glide down or catch himself on something...but Batman pretty much doesn't die of falls.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
Go hand-to-hand with multiple giant monsters at the same time, like the cloverfield monster and win (which is around the same CR as a thunder behemoth, CR 18) or pin something like 1998 godzilla to the ground with his hand tied behind his back.

Uh...the Cloverfield monster is a Kaiju. Those are an explicit creature type, and CR 26 minimum.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
Which, IMO, according to these levels tossed around would make Bane capable of these things, too.

Yup, Bane should likely be within a few levels. Though he pretty much cheated: Grapple builds that catch you by surprise are nasty, and he orchestrated the situation so Batman was at the end of a long day and at low ebb.

And yeah, 30 would result in some excessive stuff. 15, with stuff making him CR 20? Nah, that works.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
I haven't been keeping up with batman recently so I don't know if he can do these things. If you guys really say so then I can't argue with it.

He can't, mostly.


This is why I suggest that you'll have to break some rules or accept some shortcomings. Yes, he avoided an Omega Beam. That's the point. Not toe-to-toe. Avoidance, deception, distraction, stealth, trickery.

If Superman punches Batman once, then the bat is nothing but several smears on the pavement. The same is true, to a lesser degree, if Wonder Woman punches him. Or Flash. Or Aquaman. Or a freakin' B-Lister, like Booster Gold!

Batman's awesomeness is in his non-super-ness... imho.


You don't have to be level 20 to be the greatest in the world, that only depends on the campaign setting. If the best is 6, then you become 7, you are now the greatest in the world.

As for the cloverfield monster example, it's not necessarily a kaiju. We don't know what it is, really. It could just be a colossal magical beast. I made the comparison to the thunder behemoth because it has the right size, strength, and toughness to survive the same attacks and destroy things as easily as the other monster did (except the thunder behemoth wouldn't die, unlike the cloverfield monster). So that's why I left it at around CR18, which it most likely is.

I don't know if 90hp is enough to survive being sumerged in lava because of the additional 10d6 fire damage for 1d3 rounds after escaping.

Batman being level 15 sounds much nicer than being 30.

Liberty's Edge

The Crusader wrote:
This is why I suggest that you'll have to break some rules or accept some shortcomings. Yes, he avoided an Omega Beam. That's the point. Not toe-to-toe. Avoidance, deception, distraction, stealth, trickery.

Right...which is why you go with a Class like Investigator. Something predicated on its fighting style involving that sort of thing. But having an AC so high nobody can hit it is every bit as much of a trick of high level people as having more HP than God...just different high-level people. As is having Bluff and Stealth high enough to be tricky like that.

The Crusader wrote:
If Superman punches Batman once, then the bat is nothing but several smears on the pavement. The same is true, to a lesser degree, if Wonder Woman punches him. Or Flash. Or Aquaman. Or a freakin' B-Lister, like Booster Gold!

Right. Because that's happened when he fought people like that. Oh, wait, no it hasn't. And he's fought superhumanly strong people in hand-to-hand on more than one occasion. Justify it however you like, but Batman regularly goes up against superhumans and wins. People who do that, mechanically, in Pathfinder, are high level.

The only thing Batman does that a low level build reflects properly is his theoretical (and almost never actually relevant) fragility to things like bullets and superhuman strength. The high level build reflects every other single aspect of Batman's character and abilities better.

The Crusader wrote:
Batman's awesomeness is in his non-super-ness... imho.

Agreed. Which is why I wouldn't give him a ridiculous template or more than a few Mythic Tiers. Those are what represent superpowers. Level is just a reflection of skill. Batman's got that in spades.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
You don't have to be level 20 to be the greatest in the world, that only depends on the campaign setting. If the best is 6, then you become 7, you are now the greatest in the world.

Totally true! But I doubt most superheroes and villains in the world of DC Comics cap out that low, and Batman is pretty much the best even among them.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
As for the cloverfield monster example, it's not necessarily a kaiju. We don't know what it is, really. It could just be a colossal magical beast. I made the comparison to the thunder behemoth because it has the right size, strength, and toughness to survive the same attacks and destroy things as easily as the other monster did (except the thunder behemoth wouldn't die, unlike the cloverfield monster). So that's why I left it at around CR18, which it most likely is.

James Jacobs, the creative director at Paizo and a fan of Cloverfield, has specifically noted that it'd be a Kaiju. So...I'm gonna go with that. And a Behemoth isn't nearly that big. It's only Collossal...which is the same size as a Diplodocus. IE: A real animal that was only a little over 100 feet long. Which is huge, but only 1/3 the length of a football field...not the kinda size we're talking about.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
I don't know if 90hp is enough to survive being sumerged in lava because of the additional 10d6 fire damage for 1d3 rounds after escaping.

Okay, well, in that case as a 15th level PC with Con 14, with PFS rules on HP, Batman could easily have only 124 or so. That survives one round if he rolls well...maybe 2. Not 3. He'd be more likely to have maybe 154, but that's still only 2-4 rounds...ie 24 seconds at most. Which is unrealistic, certainly, but no more than some other things Batman pulls off.

Sauce987654321 wrote:
Batman being level 15 sounds much nicer than being 30.

Well, yeah. 30 is...we'll go with excessive.


The Thunder Behemoth isn't big enough? Ehh, that's kind of a bold statement, lol. The Thunder Behemoth can swallow entire sperm whales and even Krakens whole and fit them in to its 5 stomachs. So yes, it can carry 5 Krakens in its 5 stomachs. Waaaay larger than a diplodocus.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Crusader wrote:
If Superman punches Batman once, then the bat is nothing but several smears on the pavement. The same is true, to a lesser degree, if Wonder Woman punches him. Or Flash. Or Aquaman. Or a freakin' B-Lister, like Booster Gold!
Right. Because that's happened when he fought people like that. Oh, wait, no it hasn't. And he's fought superhumanly strong people in hand-to-hand on more than one occasion. Justify it however you like, but Batman regularly goes up against superhumans and wins.

And he regularly gets severely injured by No-Count-No-Name-Nobodies. So, what does that say about his level?

When he fights superhumans, he always has some gimmick or gadget that either levels the playing field or exploits a weakness. (Kryptonite gauntlets, anyone?) In Pathfinder that's equipment or magic. Not inherent character ability.


Consider that hit points can be an abstraction, as wounds. So all of the times Batman is shot at and doesn't get hit he actually is being hit but the damage is being subtracted from his wounds.

Liberty's Edge

Sauce987654321 wrote:
The Thunder Behemoth isn't big enough? Ehh, that's kind of a bold statement, lol. The Thunder Behemoth can swallow entire sperm whales and even Krakens whole and fit them in to its 5 stomachs. So yes, it can carry 5 Krakens in its 5 stomachs. Waaaay larger than a diplodocus.

Okay, Krakens are Gargantuan. So T-Rex sized, roughly. Five of them thus way something like 40 tons and are each 40 feet long. Assuming eating 5 of those things would add a tenth of its weight (actually a really low estimate for something with all five stomachs full), the Behemoth comes in at about 400 tons and four times the Diplodocus's weight. So...probably twice as long as the Diplodocus at most (though broader). Let's go further and assume that's a low estimate and it's three times the Diplodocus's length. That's still small enough to fit on a football field (though it would take up prety much the whole field)...and still way smaller than something like the creature from Cloverield.

And that's pretty much rounding up all the way (assuming it's 50 times the eight of things that it can only eat 5 of, assuming they each wweigh more than a T-Rex, etc.)

The Crusader wrote:
And he regularly gets severely injured by No-Count-No-Name-Nobodies. So, what does that say about his level?

Uh...nothing? Firstly, when you get attacked 20 times in Pathfinder, on average, you get hit once. You really think nameless mooks hit Batman more than one in 20 attacks? I'd like some examples, if so.

But you did specify severe, so let's address that, shall we? Frankly, I can recall maybe once that a non-supervillain actually does more than scratch Batman (ie: injure him in a way that meaningfully impairs him). There are certainly more instances than that...but not a lot more. Batman gets injured rarely, and when he does it's almost always a supervillain (ie: another high level character). So...no, I don't consider getting taken out by random thugs an essential part of Batman's character. At all.

The occasional times it happens? Someone rolled a crit. Guns have a x4 crit and everyone with a single level of Gunslinger in a high-firearms setting can add Dex to damage with guns. An actual Crit is likely to be 30-40 damage easy, if not more.

The Crusader wrote:
When he fights superhumans, he always has some gimmick or gadget that either levels the playing field or exploits a weakness. (Kryptonite gauntlets, anyone?) In Pathfinder that's equipment or magic. Not inherent character ability.

Uh...no he doesn't. Not always. More usually, he has ingenuity, an ability to persuade and decieve, or, if he does use equipment, a profound knowledge of his foes weaknesses so as to pack the right equipment.

All those require skills and stats, not just money.


Yeah, I don't recall the cloverfield monster being big enough to devour something like that whole. You might not be remembering the creature too well.

I see what the problem is now with your assumptions. You're assuming creatures of the same size category are basically the same size. This is very untrue. The behemoth can also swallow a brachiosaurus, which is 85' long and 32 tons, or a flesh colossus, which is around 60' tall and 75 tons. All of these are gargantuan.

A kraken isn't T-rex sized, because it's nearly 100' long.


Once again, it's just kind of - "If you say so..."

I'm sure you can cite some example of him putting General Zod, Black Adam, and the Spectre in simultaneous choke holds wearing nothing but a unitard and a cowl. But, there are plenty of occasions where he barely maintains consciousness to make it back to the cave, or has to hide in some bolt hole to avoid being caught, or has to break into a clinic or vet to suture himself up, all while patrolling the streets Gotham, facing regular, non-super (though maybe costumed) thugs.

And frankly, it's a little ridiculous to say, "He doesn't use gimmicks and gadgets, he uses ingenuity and equipment."


Crusader, I don't think you've actually read any Batman comics that've been printed in the last 30 years or so.

The 1960's Batman TV show had loads and loads of gadgets. Batman had more gadgets than Bond at that point.

But since about the 1980s, he's been represented as winning by strategy and ingenuity. Yes, he uses tools, but they're either his typical repertoire of tools, or things that he comes up with on-the-fly.

Still, the things he's done - soloing Darkseid, soloing Mongol, even on more than one occasion taking on Superman HIMSELF - don't merit a lv5 character.

Superman has a lot of Racial stuff going for him.

Why anyone thinks you can "build" Superman when it's even stated outright in the comics that his RACE is what gives him a lot of his abilities (flight, heat vision, etc.), always confuses me. Kryptonian and Daxamites are RP40+ characters; Wonder Woman equally has a Race that's off the charts.

The Classes just define what their martial and skill-based talents are - Superman is a prototypical Brawler, or maybe an Exemplar. Wonder Woman is either a Brawler or a Fighter. And given the number of feats needed to have the combat prowess they both do, you'd need to have over 20 levels.

Lv15 isn't some magic "I break the universe!" rank - lv15 is about where most Action Hero stars are at.

Lv15 for some MAGIC users is very powerful - that's when wizards start playing with lv7 spells, and those really do start breaking reality then.

But lv15 for purely human-level Martial characters like Batman is not that amazing. Definitely solid, but only insomuch as Indiana Jones or John McClain.

John McClain can't solo Darkseid. Superman can. And so can Batman.


To elaborate - an average well-trained infantry soldier would probably be about a lv5 Fighter. Again, we're going with Wounds & Vitality here as the Health meter.

A Troop of 16 such soldiers are a CR13 encounter.

This would be an "Easy" fight for 3 lv15 Characters (APL14 vs CR13).

However, 3 such groupings would be a CR16 encounter, and classified as "Hard" (APL14 vs CR16)

A "Hard" encounter for 3 lv15 characters is 48 lv5 infantrymen.

This fits in fine with characters like Indie, John McClain, even Bond.

48 lv5s is an "Easy" Fight for just about 2 of any members of the Justice League.

48 lv5s might be a "Tough" fight for 2 members of the Titans, possibly, but for the big guys - the ones in the League - that's just a Sunday afternoon stroll.

Darkseid can solo an army of hundreds to thousands of CR5s. Those are encounters of up to and above CR25.

Using that model, it becomes pretty apparent just how high-level characters like Batman have to be in order to solo someone like Darkseid, since Batman doesn't have the Racial abilities of someone like Superman, or a Magic-Item-bordering-on-Minor-Artifact like the Green Lanterns.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Crusader, I don't think you've actually read any Batman comics that've been printed in the last 30 years or so.

To be honest, I'm wondering if you have...

Batman didn't punch Darkseid into submission. He fired a Major-Artifact level Magic-God-Killing bullet at him. That doesn't really support your argument. I'm pretty sure most level 5's could make that shot...


chbgraphicarts wrote:

To elaborate - an average well-trained infantry soldier would probably be about a lv5 Fighter. Again, we're going with Wounds & Vitality here as the Health meter.

A Troop of 16 such soldiers are a CR13 encounter.

This would be an "Easy" fight for 3 lv15 Characters (APL14 vs CR13).

However, 3 such groupings would be a CR16 encounter, and classified as "Hard" (APL14 vs CR16)

A "Hard" encounter for 3 lv15 characters is 48 lv5 infantrymen.

This fits in fine with characters like Indie, John McClain, even Bond.

48 lv5s is an "Easy" Fight for just about 2 of any members of the Justice League.

48 lv5s might be a "Tough" fight for 2 members of the Titans, possibly, but for the big guys - the ones in the League - that's just a Sunday afternoon stroll.

Darkseid can solo an army of hundreds to thousands of CR5s. Those are encounters of up to and above CR25.

Using that model, it becomes pretty apparent just how high-level characters like Batman have to be in order to solo someone like Darkseid, since Batman doesn't have the Racial abilities of someone like Superman, or a Magic-Item-bordering-on-Minor-Artifact like the Green Lanterns.

I have a really hard time believing a real life trained soldier is CR 5 when your average huge sized pyro hydra comes in at CR 6, not unless they are all like Percy Jackson from the lightning thief.

John McClain and Indiana Jones are not CR15, not even put together. Going back to an earlier example of 1998 Godzilla, which comes in about CR13 - 14 (spinosaurus with giant, advanced, and savage template). Do you think john and indie have a chance of going toe-to-toe with a titanic sized saurian that's big enough to swallow whales whole and can tank direct rocket attacks and automatic gun fire? That's a true level 15 challenge.

It's no wonder why people think all super heroes are all epic level when people think James Bond or Indiana Jones are appropriate CR 15 challenges.

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