General Discussion: Spiritualist


Rules Discussion

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(only listing what I have counterpoints to)

ShakaUVM wrote:

I just played a level 2 spiritualist in PFS today.

6) There's repeated mention of "appropriate appendages", but all phantoms have to be humanoid-shaped. This is probably due to just copy/pasting the summoner, which can have eidolons with hooves and whatnot.

10) The stat array of a quadruped eidolon is: 14/14/13/7/10/11. The starting array of a phantom is 12/14/13/7/10/13. (Most eidolons will really have a 16 starting str instead of a 14, too.) So they're already starting at a deficit in combat abilities. (Since they don't actually use charisma for anything, their 13 Cha is pointless.)

11) Eidolons get 3 evolution points at first level. Phantoms get something resembling three evolution points, but they're fixed, and suboptimal. So instead of an 18 strength biped eidolon with a bite and two claws for +5/+5/+5 1d6+4/1d4+4/1d4+4 damage (10.25 DPR) at 1st level, we have an Anger phantom at +3/+3 for 1d8+2 damage (5.2 DPR). Exact same defenses. This is why they feel weak - even the best offensive phantom deals *half* the damage of a first level eidolon. And phantoms don't really get any better - they never pick up additional attacks. Eidolons end up growing tentacles, horns, and additional limbs every level, and eventually grow in size permanently, whereas only Anger gets to grow in size, and only once per day.

15) The level 7 auras seem to be the primary reason to use a phantom, but some of them are bookkeeping nightmares, like hateful aura and jealous combatant. Imagine a bunch of monsters full attacking the spiritualist at 7th level and having to roll 20 saves to take 3 damage, save for 1.

I strongly agree with most of your points. I especially agree that the ability to deliver touch spells is hugely overvalued by people in this thread.

However,

6) this is probably playing it safe. Maybe not all phantoms will need to be standard humanoids in the future.

10) Charisma SHOULD be considered. Remember that Phantoms get a lot of skills for a companion. Also, the saves for its auras and stuff can work from charisma.

Note to designer: could an incorporeal ghost use dazzling display or feint opponents? There may be more meat on these bones than I had considered.

11) While I agree that phantoms should get more, I would not advocate for an evolution-like system. That ended up being a quagmire of optimization.

15) I agree that hateful aura is pretty clunky. I would just make it equal to charisma and not have a save. I don't think resentful aura is so bad, though. I am pretty sure that more or less replicates one spell or another.

Scarab Sages

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Mahtobedis wrote:
I'm sorry to say but I am really truly not a fan of the spiritualist getting an incorporeal spirit at level 1. The ability is really over powered.

It's only an issue because most monsters aren't going to be able to damage them at that level. At higher levels, the spirit on his own could easily get spotted and destroyed by magic-using enemies, and then you're a pet class without a pet for 24 hours.

There's no real point to it at first level, anyway. They can't even deliver touch spells until 3rd level, and so literally have no role in combat as an incorporeal entity.

Were you remembering the tether limitations? The phantom shouldn't be able to get much more than a room or two ahead of you in a dungeon.

When I was using it to scout, I just kept it in ectoplasmic form, and had it stick its head through each door and report what is on the other side. While powerful, this is an ability that can be done by any class willing to invest in some cheap gloves (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glov es-of-reconnaissance)

Silver Crusade

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I like the class, even if the summer roots are plain as day. It might be a tad on the weak side, but it certainly shows potential.

Some more touch spells like Frostbite would be welcome, to make the most of the deliver touch spells feature.

The Phantoms DR seems quite good at level 1, but it doesn't seem to scale at all, which is kinda disappointing.

Regarding weapons, I assume, that the Phantom can take Martial Weapon Proficiency, but can they use weapons?


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I like the class, even if the summer roots are plain as day. It might be a tad on the weak side, but it certainly shows potential.

Some more touch spells like Frostbite would be welcome, to make the most of the deliver touch spells feature.

The Phantoms DR seems quite good at level 1, but it doesn't seem to scale at all, which is kinda disappointing.

Regarding weapons, I assume, that the Phantom can take Martial Weapon Proficiency, but can they use weapons?

Agreed...This class..and the medium, are my two favorites of the playtest, and despite it's roots in the summoner (which is another favorite of mine)I think it has great potential to find it's own niche.

Weapons proficiency would go a long way to helping the phantom find it's place (IMO)...perhaps different proficiencies could be tied to different emotional focus ? Either way I would like to see a way for spirits to manifest with a weapon in hand....

Now here's hoping the majority of the classes don't get ignored in all the excitement over the Keneticist 0-O

Designer

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nighttree wrote:
Now here's hoping the majority of the classes don't get ignored in all the excitement over the Keneticist 0-O

No worries on that front. We are keeping a close eye with great interest on all the classes in this book.


Excaliburproxy wrote:


Note to designer: could an incorporeal ghost use dazzling display or feint opponents? There may be more meat on these bones than I had considered.

I assumed you could, and was toying around with a build like this earlier today. Got sucked in by the allure of Sow Terror. It mounts to a Fear Phantom's spooky slam save, but at range. And Stealthed. Seems like a great precursor to an ambush by an Occult-themed party.


One of the existing monsters from the bestiary that IMO are closely related to the phantom conceptually are the einherjar.....I would like to see methods of creating a phantom in line with this...without going the whole "pick and choose evolutions" of the Summoners eidolon.

EDIT: I think it would be great to see the phantoms "phase lurch" scale to eventually allow them a controlled "blink" like effect to selectively allow attacks to pass through them as if they where incorporeal....


Question:
States Phantoms are treated as Summoned Creatures...would Augment Summoning Feat for the Spiritualist work for his phantom then?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Could you please implement some sort of feat that allows you to advance your phantom (or to an extent, eidolon) by up to four levels while multiclassing? (Like you did with the druid's wild shape) I personally would like the opportunity to step outside a single class when creating a spiritualist without falling behind.


Also what all kinds of feats can you get for the phantom? Regular Player feats? Monster Feats? Both?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Sacril wrote:


- The incorporeal scout can't activate traps (unless 5 lbs is enough to do it which is unlikely) and is susceptible to haunts like normal.

So it wont be killed by one which is something a PC has to worry about when scouting

Sacril wrote:


- The incorporeal spirit can't go past 100' without being blown back to the ethereal plane.

100' is more than enough distance in a dungeon, especially since most dungeons are not more than 180' long max.

Sacril wrote:


- The incorporeal spirit still needs to make stealth checks since it is still visible (even though I admit it can hide in the floor and peek; but still require stealth to peek).

You would probably get a sizable bonus for being mostly in a wall. You produce 0 sound so unless they are looking at you they will auto fail the check. You also can have a very high stealth on a spirit pretty easily. And even at the worst if they do see the spirit it is utterly unkillable at low levels before enemies start wielding magic weapons.

Sacril wrote:


- The spirit has limited perception and so hiding creatures will still be hidden

ThevVAST majority of enemies you fight in a dungeon do not hide all the time. The goblins that will ambush you are probably doing something else before you crash through the front door alerting them to your presence. It isn't like they think that hiding is the best thing to do for fun in this life. There are also things you can do with an incorporeal creature to find those pesky buggers. "Ok sally I want you to make sure you get into a position where you can see behind every object that could grant cover/concealment so that we know if someone is hiding in that room.

Sacril wrote:


- I've met up with undead, statues, elementals, stirges hiding in ceilings, Shadows, etc. that never materializes or becomes present unless something activates it. An incorporeal phantom would not normally be able to get them to come out.

The spirit doesn't need to get them to come out. It just needs to find them for you.

Scaril wrote:


- Once he scouts the spirit sucks in combat so I consider the scouting a small benefit to offset the weak combat value.

That's right is sucks in combat until you spend the 1 minute it takes to manifest it corporeally after you scout. You WILL have that minute.

I'm not against incorporeal scouts all together, but at low levels it is just too powerful.

Grand Lodge

Is Knowledge (all) planned to stay? I'm on the fence as to whether it feels appropriate. I have arguments for both sides.

Liberty's Edge

From my larger review at http://www.5mwd.com/archives/2204

The psychic magic summoner. Only it seems much more balanced than the summoner. (I imagine this is a preview of what we can expect the revised summoner to look like in Pathfinder Unleashed.)
The phantom is a little odd. It’s an outsider, but the reasons for this are not really stated. This doesn’t really seem to match the lore or origin of the spirit. (And the type is really buried in the text. I had to hunt for it.) I imagine the reason is for the extremely meta reasons of requiring a Con score, needing the phantom to be healed by positive energy, and affected by mind-affecting spells. I wonder if making the phantom a positive-spirit (tied to the positive energy plane rather than the negative) could be used to handwave those problems away while still letting the creature be “undead”.

Honestly, the spiritualist seems a little weak. It seems like in their efforts not to make the spiritualist as good as the summoner they overcompensated. Just being able to only cast up to summon monster VI, and requiring the full round, and not being able to keep summons around for a minute should help. As does not being able to customize and overly tweak the phantom/eidolon. The phantom seems much more in line with the druid’s animal companion, but the spiritualist themselves doesn’t seem as potent as the druid.

The spiritualist does gain some nice utility, being able to see invisible, detect undead, and transfer action denial conditions to their phantom. The detect undead ability at level 5 seems lacklustre, especially at that level. The wizard and cleric are getting 3rd level spells and the spiritualist gets the ability to feel the presence of undead. And unlike the paladin, it doesn’t start as if they’d been sensing for multiple rounds. It’s a bit of a lame level.


This class really makes me want to make a creepy child character with an invisible friend.
Overall I really feel this will be my favorite book

Designer

Halfway-Hagan wrote:

Question:

States Phantoms are treated as Summoned Creatures...would Augment Summoning Feat for the Spiritualist work for his phantom then?

The Augment Summoning spell is very specifically states that it affects creatures you summon with a summoning spell. So no.

Designer

Halfway-Hagan wrote:
Also what all kinds of feats can you get for the phantom? Regular Player feats? Monster Feats? Both?

Regular play feats and monster feat if your GM or campaign allows.

Designer

CoeusFreeze wrote:
Could you please implement some sort of feat that allows you to advance your phantom (or to an extent, eidolon) by up to four levels while multiclassing? (Like you did with the druid's wild shape) I personally would like the opportunity to step outside a single class when creating a spiritualist without falling behind.

The final class will have an array of feats that allow it to augment its class features.

Designer

xebeche wrote:
Is Knowledge (all) planned to stay? I'm on the fence as to whether it feels appropriate. I have arguments for both sides.

It will likely stay. We would like this class to have the ability to be very knowledgeable if it wants to be, often gaining its insight from its Phantom and other sources beyond the pale.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Halfway-Hagan wrote:
Also what all kinds of feats can you get for the phantom? Regular Player feats? Monster Feats? Both?
Regular play feats and monster feat if your GM or campaign allows.

And for PFS?

Designer

Halfway-Hagan wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Halfway-Hagan wrote:
Also what all kinds of feats can you get for the phantom? Regular Player feats? Monster Feats? Both?
Regular play feats and monster feat if your GM or campaign allows.
And for PFS?

I would assume whatever is true for an eidolon in PFS is also true for a Phantom. But it is best to ask the PFS folks.


Me and my friends strongly agree with what ShakaUVM said.

The spiritualist needs more love!
More touch spells should be on the list.

And I really want a spiritualist with a phantom horse.
Or any animal.


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The spiritualist needs to be able to do more itself if the Phantom remains as it is. I love the flavor, however it feels like a Summoner Archetype, not its own class.


Cubic Prism wrote:
The spiritualist needs to be able to do more itself if the Phantom remains as it is. I love the flavor, however it feels like a Summoner Archetype, not its own class.

I think I agree with this. I would love to see more added to the spiritualist herself. Maybe a negative energy touch attack that the phantom could deliver too?

Or really a resource pool that could power a number of effects that could buff the phantom with spiritualist actions or things that can make the spiritualist herself a more effective melee combatant.


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I think the class could have some features to make it more interesting:

1) The phantom could be fused with the spiritualist providing a fearsome combat powered form (not just some shield bonus or tendrils) with unnatural strenght and resistance.

2) The phantom could be able to speak with recently deceased, or allow the spiritualist to do it.

3) The phantom could act like a poltergeist, throwing objects while invisible. In it should be able to become invisible from the beginning.

4) The phantom could be able to drain life/attributes to heal itself or the spiritualist.

5) the phantom could have/provide an aura of fear (all of them).

6) the phantom could posses the spiritualist, acting while he can't.

7) the phantom could warn the spiritualist of danger, providing uncanny dodge, evasion, trap sense, trap finding (for haunts too).

8) The spiritualist could channel the power of the dead, becoming more undead-like himself (immunities, resistance to negative energy, level drain, etc..)

9) The spiritualist could have all abilities that appear in Beyond: Two Souls - using the spirit to listen to toughs, break things, see through his eyes, heat/ freeze objects, all without saying a word.

10) The spiritualist could be able to feel other spirits, ghosts, phantoms, even the souls of the living.

11) the phantom should stay awake while the spiritualist is sleeping, but it should be weakened.

12) the spiritualist should be protected from soul attacks (magic jar, imprison the soul, drain energy...)

I think it's anti thematic that the phantom has a physical from from level 1. It makes it work like an eidolon, when it could be much more interesting as an invisible force, that no one can be sure that is or is not there. "Are you there spirit? Give us a sign!"


If the Phantom is living on the Ethereal (which I think has a lot of problems mechanically, but thats probably just me), it would be neat if it could pull an enemy into the Ethereal and 1v1 it. Sort of like a ghostly maze.


I think that only intelligent creatures can become phantoms, possibly only creatures with souls and not spirits. If that is the case, you will not see Phantom Animals...but you might see phantom shapeshifters who are in animal form as phantoms.


I see a lot of comparisons to the current summoner, and I'm not so sure that that's for the best. In a few months, Pathfinder Unchained will be redoing the Summoner in some capacity.


Cheapy wrote:
I see a lot of comparisons to the current summoner, and I'm not so sure that that's for the best. In a few months, Pathfinder Unchained will be redoing the Summoner in some capacity.

Then note my Hunter comparisons.

Silver Crusade

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I would like to second the idea of strengthening the Spiritualists bond to speaking with spirits or otherwise lending more uniqueness to the class... This doesn't feel especially strong in the class. Where the summoner feels very connected to all things planar and calling creatures from other planes... The spiritualist doesn't seem to have the same amount of umph... I don't want to over power them, and I do feel they are better balanced than the summoner, but something feels a bit off in the flavor department. Making the incorporeal aspect of the phantom more important, giving the spiritualist more touch spells or a set of SLAs based on the type of phantom, or something else that gave more "I can do something no one else can do" feel to the class.


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As an aside, can an Incorporeal Phantom damage other incorporeal creatures and vice versa?

Silver Crusade Lone Wolf Development

When you activate Bonded Manifestation, do you get all the abilities you've earned so far (so an 8th level spiritualist would gain ectoplasmic shield and spirit touch), or would you have to choose one of those abilities to gain this time?

If you do have to choose only one, can you pay multiple times/round to gain multiple abilities at a time? If so, does each new ability require its own standard action to turn on, or can you turn on as many or as few as you want with the same action?

If you can use only one at a time, and you're not allowed to pay extra to get multiple abilities, and you wanted to change abilities, do you need to turn off one before starting another, or is there any efficiency bonus to switching the active power, as opposed to the normal free+standard to deactivate and then re-activate this ability?

My reading is that the "...gains a new way to use her bonded manifestation" phrasing means you can only use one at a time - you have to pick only one of the ways to use the ability at a time, but I wanted to make sure that was how this ability was intended to be used.


2nd level is just too early for haste. It was bad for the summoner and it is still bad for this one.
The phantom seems less overpowered than the eidolon at first glance and the broken SLA is gone. That "version" of the summoner might really be allowable.


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Gingerbreadman wrote:

2nd level is just too early for haste. It was bad for the summoner and it is still bad for this one.

The phantom seems less overpowered than the eidolon at first glance and the broken SLA is gone. That "version" of the summoner might really be allowable.

The eidolon is not overpowered. It's over complicated. The most overpowered summoner archetype has a half power eidolon.

The SLA just has too many uses per day. It should probably just be charisma mod times per day with a minimum of 2. It would also be less powerful And cleaner in play if it was restricted to monsters of its level without being able to summon multiples of one level lower.

I agree that haste should be a 3rd level spell though.

Grand Lodge

Luthril wrote:

I would like to second the idea of strengthening the Spiritualists bond to speaking with spirits or otherwise lending more uniqueness to the class....

Agreed 100 percent. I am hoping the final version gives the spiritualist special abilities to handle/manage undead. I thought the dirge bard really did a great job on this flavor including (among other abilities) their ability to use mind-affecting spells on undead.


Melkiador wrote:
Gingerbreadman wrote:

2nd level is just too early for haste. It was bad for the summoner and it is still bad for this one.

The phantom seems less overpowered than the eidolon at first glance and the broken SLA is gone. That "version" of the summoner might really be allowable.
The eidolon is not overpowered. It's over complicated. The most overpowered summoner archetype has a half power eidolon.

While I agree that the master summoner is even more overpowered than the normal one, the eidolon IS too strong in many legal builds. And not all of them are combat focused.

I have seen one game broken by a master summoner and another one by a classic summoner's eidolon.


One thing I quite like about this class so far is that it can switch between modes that can be roughly described as Synthesist-like and Eidolon-like.

Since I saw a call for suggestions, maybe Beauty could be an emotional focus. I'm not sure how well it'd map to combat applications, but ghost stories of dead artists who still wish to see their masterpiece through are common enough.

Grand Lodge

Gingerbreadman wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Gingerbreadman wrote:

2nd level is just too early for haste. It was bad for the summoner and it is still bad for this one.

The phantom seems less overpowered than the eidolon at first glance and the broken SLA is gone. That "version" of the summoner might really be allowable.
The eidolon is not overpowered. It's over complicated. The most overpowered summoner archetype has a half power eidolon.

While I agree that the master summoner is even more overpowered than the normal one, the eidolon IS too strong in many legal builds. And not all of them are combat focused.

I have seen one game broken by a master summoner and another one by a classic summoner's eidolon.

I would argue that on its own the Eidolon isn't a problem. But the Eidolon isn't on its own. It's strapped onto a full caster pretending to be a partial caster.


Not a full caster exactly, but a 8-spell-level equivalent specialist of buffing and debuffing would be fair. Summoner spells aren't great at healing or direct damage. It's still part of the total summoner "problem" but it does have limitations. Certainly better than many 6 level casters.


Well, no need to speak more about the summoner IMO.

I feel the dev should make a real step away from the summoner with the spiritualist to avoid other comparisons with it.

With more touch spells and a modifications to the spell-likes should already make the class feel a little better.

Scarab Sages

to the Dev: Looking for a clarification on the playtest materials.

Does a 2nd level Phantom get a +2 armor bonus or +4?

1) On table page 58 lists a 1st level armor bonus of "0" and 2nd level of "+2"
2) On page 55 under Phantom, Starting Statistics, AC, there is a listed +2 to AC bonus in either form(Incorporeal or Ectoplasmic)

Phantom distance from Spiritualist
On page 52 under bonded sense and in other places it makes mention of there being no range for this effect as long as the two are on the same plane. That seems odd as in the previous paragraph it states, if the phantom is more than 100 feet away the bond is broken and the phantom is sent to the ethereal plane.

Is the implication that these effects cannot be blocked by stone, lead, wall of force? or just a typo? Either way the language should be clarified.


HectorVivis wrote:

Well, no need to speak more about the summoner IMO.

I feel the dev should make a real step away from the summoner with the spiritualist to avoid other comparisons with it.

With more touch spells and a modifications to the spell-likes should already make the class feel a little better.

That's going to be hard to do when so many of the abilities the class gets are direct mirrors of the Summoner.

Sovereign Court

Joseph C wrote:

to the Dev: Looking for a clarification on the playtest materials.

Does a 2nd level Phantom get a +2 armor bonus or +4?

1) On table page 58 lists a 1st level armor bonus of "0" and 2nd level of "+2"
2) On page 55 under Phantom, Starting Statistics, AC, there is a listed +2 to AC bonus in either form(Incorporeal or Ectoplasmic)

I can actually answer this one based on the dev's earlier responses.

The table is an increase to armor bonus (natural for ectoplasm form, deflection for incorporeal) Additionally, the +2 armor bonus at first level for incorporeal should be dodge not deflection. The initial deflection bonus for the incorporeal form is equal to the Phantom's CHA modifier.


Instead of abilities that mirror the Summoner, ones that have ties to the Ethereal Plane, the emotions of the Phantom, or perhaps Shadow Magic would be a nice twist. There are all sorts of fun things one could come up with as far as % real effects and the Spiritualist. I look at the Spiritualist as the ghost twins from the Matrix Reloaded.

Silver Crusade

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Phantom Menace (I couldn't resist)

I have to agree the phantom's ability to roam around even within a limited distance through walls and other obstacles is a bit powerful, especially at the start of a Spiritualist's career.

Outside of scouting an entire dungeon simply for the floor plan and other potential threats combined with it's starting 7 INT, the Link ability, and it's own skills perception and stealth being 2 of them made encounters much easier even given the Phantom's comparatively lesser combat abilities (to an eidolon or companion). Like having fog of war turned off.

On the other hand what I wanted to address more was it's ability to bypass most locked doors and/or through some GM convincing, able to describe the locking or trap mechanism while it peeked through and gave feedback to the party. No magical traps were encountered as of yet. I'm sure as the spiritualist's levels increase being able to use Bonded Senses longer, will just make most trap and locked doors easier to bypass. If this is part of the function of the phantom, then it's doing it really well.

I think this class could have additional abilities, defenses, etc when encountering haunts specifically and not just the additional bonuses to saving throws or rerolls. Maybe that's a very specialized archetype.

I'd like to see (unless I missed it somewhere) a more expanded Bonded Manifestation. Perhaps the ability to utilize some of the Phantom's feats and/or their emotional focus abilities. I'm hoping there will be spiritualist feat supports that increase the duration of all the 1 round per level abilities as well.

Another thought was having the Phantom manifest in another person's mind granting the spiritualist a wider array of skills, some of which s/he might not already have...along with potentially other abilities, like borrowing feats, or giving the ability to grant the new host mind their own skill(s) or feats, or saving throws.

...and, possibly everything the spiritualist is targeted by a mind affecting spell or effect from an enemy up to 1 + wisdom modifier or 3 + Cha or some balanced formula per day, and makes the saving throw...can store away that negative affect and release it as an area affect later on. Similar to a physic blast or mental breath weapon/AoE. It only works if you're targeted by a mind affecting spell or effect when your phantom is residing in your head.

That's all for now.

- PS playing the part of the phantom w/my best impersonation of Darth Vader into a soup container is a lot of fun.


Quick off topic:

Hi guys. This is my first official post. I like pathfinder very much and I give all of my support to Paizo.

On topic:

This is a very interesting concept to work with. I like how it "almost" screams 'Beyond: Two Souls.' I do agree with the fact that this class seems under-powered though. It does seem like a watered down summoner with some flavor added to it, though I'm not saying that it being "summoner-like" is a bad thing. The Spiritualist just needs more power to it and maybe a more defined niche.

I do agree that some abilities need to be altered, but not completely changed. The see invisibility ability for example is kinda limited in the amount it can be used and how much time it lasts. I also think the bonded manifestation could do more.

The phantom itself could be more.... Its reliance on touch spells in incorporeal form weakens it greatly (when its combat ability isn't so strong in the first place). I believe normal incorporeal rules for it would have been fine. Also, the emotion foci could have given them more oomph (something more on par with an eidolon though not quite as powerful).

As an after thought and not on how it works, why does the hatred foci have sneak attack? It doesn't make very much sense to me thematically. Though I could just be nitpicking and not very understanding of how it could fit.

Though.... I do hope I'm not overstepping my bounds in saying these things. I like the idea very much and I'm all for what you guys decide.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Do the automatic ranks in the 2 class skills the phantom gains from their emotional foci come out of their normal ranks or are these bonus points that do not count against the total?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Arcanic Drake wrote:

Quick off topic:

...
This is a very interesting concept to work with. I like how it "almost" screams 'Beyond: Two Souls.' I do agree with the fact that this class seems under-powered though. It does seem like a watered down summoner with some flavor added to it, though I'm not saying that it being "summoner-like" is a bad thing. The Spiritualist just needs more power to it and maybe a more defined niche.
...
As an after thought and not on how it works, why does the hatred foci have sneak attack? It doesn't make very much sense to me thematically. Though I could just be nitpicking and not very understanding of how it could fit.

Though.... I do hope I'm not overstepping my bounds in saying these things. I like the idea very much and I'm all for what you guys decide.

Welcome to the game.

I agree with you. The Spiritualist needs a slight bump up. At mid and later levels the Phantom just doesn't keep up, even with a -3 animal companion to the Ranger, never mind the full caster Druid.
I would venture a guess that the Hatred foci was modeled after the Slayer. Favored enemy and sneak attack are two of the classes accuracy and damage mechanics. Though the accuracy does not scale which again means the pet has issues keeping up at mid to higher levels.
Some of the foci are very subpar and pigeonhole you. Save or shaken (assuming that the phantom even hits) is decent but there are lot of creatures immune to fear...which leaves you with 1d4+1 damage. Subpar at level 1, way behind the curve at level 3+

I've created one and am trying to figure how well it works in playtest.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
doc the grey wrote:
Do the automatic ranks in the 2 class skills the phantom gains from their emotional foci come out of their normal ranks or are these bonus points that do not count against the total?

They would have to come out of their normal skill ranks for the math to come out right. After all, they are outsiders with the same starting intelligence as eidolons, so they should have the same number of skill ranks. The only way that having only two skill ranks per hit die works out is if two of the ranks are already accounted for as mandatory expenditures.

Designer

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doc the grey wrote:
Do the automatic ranks in the 2 class skills the phantom gains from their emotional foci come out of their normal ranks or are these bonus points that do not count against the total?

They do not come out of your normal ranks, you get them automatically.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

SRM! you handsome devil you! how have you been! Pickleshot at your service! I must read this spiritualist thing of yours and see if I can participate in this discussion in a meaningful way. Why yes I just bought a brand new jar of dill pickles last night! I may post late tonight after I come back from the bars and after ingesting many a pickle of dillness +4...

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