General Discussion: Spiritualist


Rules Discussion

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Unfortunately, I think the problem with the Summoner comparison is that the Eidolon is far too strong, not that the Phantom is too weak... It's strong like a primary class feature, not strong like a replacement for what your friend brought to the table. I'd really rather not buff the Spiritualist up to be equal to the Summoner.

I will note that in my writeup, I also compared the class to the Hunter who I think gets animal companions that are stronger than the phantom and also have battlefield control and debuffs in the form of Hunter tricks and teamwork feats. Moreover, the hunter is pretty neat in that it can get a feat (improved share spell) that allows him to buff himself and his animal companion in the same action (and the animal spirit feat that allows the hunter to buff himself as though he were and animal; animal growth is boss as hell).

Hunter is underrated, imo.

cartmanbeck wrote:


I agree, and with full BAB and the option to stay incorporeal, I think the phantom could be extremely good at touch spell delivers, so it can fill a completely different niche... like a familiar that can actually join the battle. I'll be testing out a Spiritualist in PbP starting tomorrow, so hopefully I can give feedback pretty fast.

But the Phantom can't change between incorporeal and ectoplasmic during the fight, right (you gotta summon it again over one minute)? So that is not a particularly strong bit of battlefield variety.


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I have a question regarding the phantom residing on the ethereal plane. It states in the description that:

"The phantom forms a link with the spiritualist, who forever after either harbors the creature within her consciousness[b] or manifests it as ectoplasm or incorporeal essence." [...] "Fully
manifested phantoms are treated as summoned creatures from the Ethereal Plane, except that they are not sent back to the Ethereal Plane [b]until
reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution scores."

So, really, where is the Phantom living? In the mind of the Spiritualist, or on a plane? If it's on the Ethereal, and the spiritualist is on the material plane, without the Phantom manifested and an enemy jumps to the ethereal, what happens? Is the Phantom hovering over the place/point where the Spiritualist is on the material plane? Is it targetable? Can it be destroyed now? Can it be interacted with if you use Blink?

I don't see how something can reside in the mind of a creature and reside on the ethereal at the same time. I'd pick one or the other. Use the ethereal as an origin, but do away with potential abuse by stating the Phantom is driven back to the mind of the Spiritualist, not sent back to the Ethereal. It's not a Summoner who specializes in planar stuffs There are a lot of ways for characters to reach the ethereal pretty easily and having to deal with an ethereal remora without clear rules could be a pain in the rear.


Another question:

Can you Planar Binding / Ally a Phantom since it's a creature from the Ethereal Plane?

Outsider: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.

The Phantom is really feeling like a neutered Eidolon to me, though I get the impression it's meant to be different. I'd like to see a removal of the planar aspects of it and make it into something more unique.

Another note - The summoner never actually summons the entire entity represented by the Eidolon. The summoner pulls down an aspect of the creature. The actual creature this aspect comes from is un-classified, and who's home plane is never specified. The spiritualist is getting the entire Phantom entity, from a specific location. Seems open to more rules interpretation imo.


Cubic Prism wrote:
I don't see how something can reside in the mind of a creature and reside on the ethereal at the same time.

Why not?


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What are folks thoughts about the abilities that are pretty much mirrors of the Summoner's? I'd like the Spiritualist to have more unique abilities, not copies and close thematic mirrors to the Summoner. This isn't an archetype, it's meant to be a new class.

Shared with Summoner:

Bond Senses -> Bond Senses
Spiritual Interference -> Shield Ally (only +2 to will, not all saves like the Summoner)
Maker's Call -> Maker's Call
Greater Spiritual Interference -> Greater Shield Ally
Life Bond -> Life Bond

The Phantom is a weaker Eidolon. The Spiritualist is a 3/4 BAB class, why not put some abilities in there that make use of that? I like that the Phantom isn't a natural attacking Ginsu machine, however I think the Spiritualist itself could use some more unique, class/role defining abilities. Perhaps tied to the emotional focus the Phantom has. As the two grow together, they take on shared emotional traits perhaps.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One more vote for positive emotions.

"Socialable: The Phantom is amicable and a good companion" His aura would probably something along the lines of a Bless Spell or even say a Sanctuary effect.

Just don't name him Casper. :)


williamoak wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
Yeah, I was surprised by the lack of positive emotions myself williamoak. I would like to see other positive emotions such as joy, bravery, compassion, kindness, etc.

Well, there are certian positive emotions I wouldnt expect to see, since I perceive the notion of the emotion being the reason why the ghost is still attached to the mortal plane; and I highly doubt someone would become a ghost out of kindness. However, I could easily see other more "positive" reasons, such as:

-Duty: a lot of ancestor-worshiping mythologies have the dead watching the living, so it could be appropriate.

Hmm, I'll need to think of this later.

I concur. Phantoms should be based off of various reasons why a spirit has not chosen to move on. For positive emotions, I could see duty and love as big reasons, but not so much joy and kindness

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

I think there definitely need to be some positive emotions too. Joy is great, as are compassion, etc. other good ideas I think I saw were flagellant, and the 7 deadly sins.,.... As another suggestion maybe hedonist? - the spirit is unable (or unwilling) to give up on the pleasures of the flesh and hangs around to experience them vicariously through the spiritualist.

It also seems to me that there should be (maybe) a bit more of an effect, of the type of spirit, on the spiritualist. Maybe they gain a bonus from doing something thematically appropriate, or each spirit type has a negative effect on the caster (eg penalty to saves vs. fear)?..

Liberty's Edge

1. Concept

A pet poltergeist. Yay!

2. Spells

Why spellcasting? I’m going to ask this in all class discussions because ditching spells for spell-like abilities is a mechanic I love. (Go kineticist!) I’m all for magic classes that don’t get any spells.

3. Disturbing origins

The class description & sidebar made me think about different phantom origins. What about a soul on its way to life instead of undeath (i.e., an unborn spirit)? Zeus pulling Athena out of his own forehead (e.g., an idea given “life” or a purely spiritual “birth” or an “imaginary” friend)? Creativity!


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Krillnar wrote:
The class description & sidebar made me think about different phantom origins. What about a soul on its way to life instead of undeath (i.e., an unborn spirit)? Zeus pulling Athena out of his own forehead (e.g., an idea given “life” or a purely spiritual “birth” or an “imaginary” friend)? Creativity!

Oooh! I like this idea!

To add another similar one- how about a twinned spirit? The spiritualist's own twin brother/sister that died during birth, but whose spirit remained tethered to the spiritualist?

One that I thought of the other day was a Shabti Spiritualist whose mortal creator's plans to escape the shackles of his eternal torment by creating the shabti construct didn't quite go according to plan, and he/she remains tied to the shabti.


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Considering the nature of the spiritualist and phantom's relationship would a spiritualist be immune to possession? Sign says "Occupied." If not when the phantom is manifested how about when she/he is in the spiritualist?


Are there feats or possible spells planned that can augment the powers of the phantom?

By the way, I offer you much praise for developing this amazing class!


I like that idea as well The NPC.


MMCJawa wrote:
williamoak wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
Yeah, I was surprised by the lack of positive emotions myself williamoak. I would like to see other positive emotions such as joy, bravery, compassion, kindness, etc.

Well, there are certian positive emotions I wouldnt expect to see, since I perceive the notion of the emotion being the reason why the ghost is still attached to the mortal plane; and I highly doubt someone would become a ghost out of kindness. However, I could easily see other more "positive" reasons, such as:

-Duty: a lot of ancestor-worshiping mythologies have the dead watching the living, so it could be appropriate.

Hmm, I'll need to think of this later.

I concur. Phantoms should be based off of various reasons why a spirit has not chosen to move on. For positive emotions, I could see duty and love as big reasons, but not so much joy and kindness

I could see joy and kindness, especially if the phantom is a parent, a sibling, or a lover.


Odraude wrote:
I could see joy and kindness, especially if the phantom is a parent, a sibling, or a lover.

Those seem pretty much exactly in line with the suggested duty and love. Joy and kindness, in and of themselves, don't seem like things that would keep a spirit from moving on - you don't hear stories about a ghost that was just too darn happy to move on to the afterlife. It's when those feelings create a perceived duty (say, because the spirit is too kind to let a vulnerable person go unprotected) that you would get a lingering spirit.


Hmm. I know this is probably not nailed down yet, but as a flavor concern, How do Pharasmins feel about this? The Phantom isn't undead, but it's still a soul functioning outside of the normal soul cycle...


I got to play the class at level 3 and 4, and I have to say, the incorporeal phantom is an absolutely wonderful scout. Being able to stick his face through a door and prepare us for what was on the other side was immeasurably useful, even if he couldn't find or set off traps. When we found a major enemy, he'd just slip back through, the summoner, er, I mean... spiritualist... would just dismiss and re-summon him in ectoplasmic form to help in the combat.

Why isn't this presented as an alternate class of summoner? That's obviously what it is, and an entire paragraph is presented to making it mutually exclusive with summoner (though why you'd want to multi the two I will never know) which could be saved by simply saying "An alternate class of the summoner," at the beginning of the description.

It felt a little (ok, a LOT) weird that this soul who died and didn't move on ISN'T undead, but an outsider. Isn't becoming an outsider what happens when a soul moves on? They get bonuses to Cha and Dex as they level up, they're incorporeal or ectoplasmic, things usually associated with undead, and well, they're a dead person. I can understand that being undead has a lot of mechanical ramifications that you might want to avoid, but right now the flavor of it is just bizarre. Is it because you can't typically "summon" undead?

I like the feel of this class a lot, though. The spell list felt really good, there were unusual options through the phantom, and it gave me some great roleplaying opportunity. Insert begging for positive emotions here: Duty, Protection, Love, etc. I also have a burning need for a Vengeance spirit, though I wound up using Hatred as a rough substitute for the general idea.

As much as I liked the class, I found myself a little disappointed at the inevitable comparison of the phantom to the eidolon. I didn't feel like my phantom was going to really grow much from leveling up- it's always going to have pretty much the same options, and feel the same throughout levels. Very rarely does something new happen. I think the slams either need to get better over time (build in magic bonuses or at least counting as magic, please?) or options for other types of attacks or some SLAs. Managing to feel cool and monotonous at the same time is a bizarre place to be.


dogstarrb wrote:


As much as I liked the class, I found myself a little disappointed at the inevitable comparison of the phantom to the eidolon. I didn't feel like my phantom was going to really grow much from leveling up- it's always going to have pretty much the same options, and feel the same throughout levels. Very rarely does...

I'm a bit concerned with this myself, but I would rather see it steer away from simply adding evolutions which just draw it closer in comparison to the summoner.

I would like to see the ability to arm/equip your phantom over time...something that it can actually manifest with rather than needing to be equipped each time it's called....


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nighttree wrote:
dogstarrb wrote:


As much as I liked the class, I found myself a little disappointed at the inevitable comparison of the phantom to the eidolon. I didn't feel like my phantom was going to really grow much from leveling up- it's always going to have pretty much the same options, and feel the same throughout levels. Very rarely does...

I'm a bit concerned with this myself, but I would rather see it steer away from simply adding evolutions which just draw it closer in comparison to the summoner.

I would like to see the ability to arm/equip your phantom over time...something that it can actually manifest with rather than needing to be equipped each time it's called....

I would like to clarify that I definitely do NOT want evolutions. I'd rather see something like an animal companion's advancement, some options to get iterative attacks maybe, at least, or SLAs. Just... a little more growth to it. Right now it feels really... flat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The NPC wrote:
Considering the nature of the spiritualist and phantom's relationship would a spiritualist be immune to possession? Sign says "Occupied." If not when the phantom is manifested how about when she/he is in the spiritualist?

Since no immunity to possession is mentioned in the mechanic, the answer is no in either case.


It would be cool if did protect you from possession.


Dragon78 wrote:
It would be cool if did protect you from possession.

Maybe if it's manifested it can attempt to re-enter your mind by making an opposed Cha check to displace the possessor?


Quote:
An incorporeal or ectoplasm manifested phantom cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the spiritualist’s connection with the phantom.

What happens when the phantom does wear armor then? What is the effect of an of an interfered link? Consider a phantom using UMD to cast a scroll of instant armor on himself.

Also, for this restriction does a shield count as armor?

Scarab Sages

Melkiador wrote:
Quote:
An incorporeal or ectoplasm manifested phantom cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the spiritualist’s connection with the phantom.

What happens when the phantom does wear armor then? What is the effect of an of an interfered link? Consider a phantom using UMD to cast a scroll of instant armor on himself.

Also, for this restriction does a shield count as armor?

Wow, I didn't see this. Does Mage Armor count as "armor" that might interrupt with the spiritualist’s connection?


Sacril wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Quote:
An incorporeal or ectoplasm manifested phantom cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the spiritualist’s connection with the phantom.

What happens when the phantom does wear armor then? What is the effect of an of an interfered link? Consider a phantom using UMD to cast a scroll of instant armor on himself.

Also, for this restriction does a shield count as armor?

Wow, I didn't see this. Does Mage Armor count as "armor" that might interrupt with the spiritualist’s connection?

Mage armor is not armor; it isn't even an object. It's just a magical effect that grants an armor bonus.


What should the Starting Wealth be?

(Currently it reads "Starting Wealth: 3d6 x 10 gp (average 70 gp)")

Silver Crusade

I have played half of Slaveships with a level 1 Dwarf Spiritualist named Shael and his Hatred Phantom named Annym... Fun times. I'll do a full right up next week after we finish the scenario, but here is some feedback from the initial session and a couple of suggestions.

1. firsts the flavor... Shael is a grumpy little cuss and asks to visit the privy in pretty much everywhere the party goes.... he then scrawls his ritual on the privy wall and sends incorporeal Annym to snoop around... Love the flavor of this character and will play an entire module with him next weekend.

2. the suggestions... (yes I know these are drastic)

Go full BAB for the spiritualist and remove the spell list(Leave SUs and SPs) ... I think doing this puts more focus on the relationship between the spiritualist and phantom, and makes the phantom more important to her especially with my next suggestion.... Add at will castings to the incorporeal phantom that are customized to the emotion of the phantom and that scale with level(Nothing overpowered). Doing these two things makes this class not feel like a archetype of summoner... it makes it feel like a distant cousin.


In basic, the Spiritualist is not bad, but is so close to the Summoner it should be an Archetype. If you make psychic magic as an alternate for Arcane magic...


blahpers wrote:
Sacril wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Quote:
An incorporeal or ectoplasm manifested phantom cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the spiritualist’s connection with the phantom.

What happens when the phantom does wear armor then? What is the effect of an of an interfered link? Consider a phantom using UMD to cast a scroll of instant armor on himself.

Also, for this restriction does a shield count as armor?

Wow, I didn't see this. Does Mage Armor count as "armor" that might interrupt with the spiritualist’s connection?
Mage armor is not armor; it isn't even an object. It's just a magical effect that grants an armor bonus.

I would like to agree but it does say "armor of any kind" which is painfully vague. Mage armor is armor of some kind even if it isn't the usual kind.

Silver Crusade

Putting together a Skeletal Champion Anger Spiritualist to attack my players next week. <Here's the first draft>.

He looks like he'll be a competent threat. Comments and suggestions welcome.

* A bit of a pain to build. Flipping all around to figure out the Phantom as I was putting it together wasn't great. That part wasn't very intuitive. But I haven't played pet classes before so I don't know if it's any better or worse on that count.

* This guy's pretty melee-focused. Having a bit of trouble imagining other sorts of Spiritualist—especially builds that would get good use out of incorporeal form and bonded manifestations—but haven't given it much thought honestly.

QUESTION — What senses does the Phantom have? Darkvision? Low-light? Nothing?


Darkvision, it lists that in the phantom level advancement for first level.

Scarab Sages

Hello, and thanks for putting your work out there for feedback.

Phantoms do have Darkvision (p.54 under Special)

1) Your NPC is titled a Medium 3, is he a medium or a Spiritualist?

I will focus on the phantom because I am not familiar with the Skeletal Champion template.

Your Phantom has an AC of 20, how so? +4 for armor? Phantoms cannot wear armor of any kind(p.54 "armor bonus") . If you are talking about the bonded manifestation(Su) at 3rd level that is only rounds per level and the +4 bonus is for the spiritualist. Mage Armor at the time they encounter the party would work, or BoA +4.

In addition there seems to be a typo in the Armor class description in the play test materials: P.55 Phantom starting Statistics give a +2 for either incorporeal or ectoplasmic, but the table on page 58 shows an armor bonus of +0.

I could be mistaken but I believe 1st level stats and starting stats should be the same. On p. 54 under armor bonus is does talk about this number being a "bonus" but it seems unclear. It would be clearer to just increase all the numbers in the "Armor Bonus" column by 2, and remove the reference to the +2 under starting statistics.

Maybe we can get some feed back here.

Thanks again for the sample to critique, it really helps to look at some one else's work.

Designer

Kyshkumen wrote:
For the Horrific strike ability it reads "when a phantom with this focus makes a slam attack against a creature, that creature must succeed at a Will saving throw." The way it reads implies the will save is required even on a miss. Is this intentional?

No. I should be hits with a slam attack.

Designer

Sacril wrote:
If you cast a spell, i.e. Mage Armor, on a manifested phantom and then re-absorb it back into my consciousness; does the spell duration stay active?

Yes, but it has no affect until you manifest the phantom again, and only if the duration has not yet ended. You must count the time the phantom was re-absorbed back into the consciousness as part of the duration for that spell.

Silver Crusade

@Joseph. (1) Oops! Spiritualist. (2) Assuming *mage armor* on Phantom and *longstrider* via wand. (3) See first post of thread for update on the armor stats. [Phone Post]


As a note, I do like the Spiritualist, I just do not see that it is ENOUGH different from the Summoner to be a separate class.


Yeah. It does feel a lot like an archetype.


I almost wonder if the Spiritualist isn't kind of the rework we might be seeing the Summoner get in Pathfinder Unchained.


Cthulhudrew wrote:
I almost wonder if the Spiritualist isn't kind of the rework we might be seeing the Summoner get in Pathfinder Unchained.

It could be a back door pilot, but losing the summon monster SLA is a big loss.


The two free skill focuses is kind of a compensation...


In my playing a summoner, the SLA summon tends to be more awesome than the actual eidolon. If I had to lose eidolon or summons, I'd lose the eidolon.


Melkiador wrote:
In my playing a summoner, the SLA summon tends to be more awesome than the actual eidolon. If I had to lose eidolon or summons, I'd lose the eidolon.

Which is kind of why I don't see this as a Summoner archetype ;)

I'm actually glad that they went this route with the class.


Yeah. Just saying the class has a lot to make up for with the loss of that ability. Of course that's from looking at the class as an archetype.


If this class is anywhere near as powerful as the summoner it can be marked down as a failure.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
If this class is anywhere near as powerful as the summoner it can be marked down as a failure.

The summoner isn't so bad. It gets haste too soon and its summoning sla a little too often, but that's about it. A well built Druid can be much stronger.

The real problem with the summoner is that the eidolon has so many special rules and special cases that it can be hard to follow. Keeping the phantom relatively simple is something this class is doing well.


In theory, a spiritualist could trade all their spiritualist levels for summoner levels in the event that their phantom "moves on" or "earns their wings" and basically transforms into an eidolon. Of course, this could only be done when certain story and mechanical (feats) criteria are met.

Scarab Sages

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I just played a level 2 spiritualist in PFS today.

My thoughts:

1) It's a summoner that has cure spells instead of infernal healing. Cure spells: good. Worth not being a summoner? No. You could do a point-by-point comparison between summoner and the spiritualist, and the spiritualist turns up short. Summoners get free summon spells - spiritualists get two skill focuses which may or may not even matter to you. And their spell list is completely inferior, except for the aforementioned healing.

2) The phantom sucks in combat. No two ways about it. It's useful as a scout (ectoplasm mode rocks!), but +5/+5 to hit, 1d4+1 (I have a small one, a medium one would be +4/+4 for 1d6+1) damage is just "wizard's familiar" level of damage. This is supposed to be a pet class, but the pet just feels like an afterthought. There's no real customization, like with an eidolon. Some high level special abilities look kind of neat, but they are far too back-loaded to interest me, since PFS play ends at 12th level.

3) All this is not to say I want to see another summoner class. I think the summoner is too powerful. But if you're just printing another summoner that sucks in a point-by-point comparison, then the class hasn't found a niche.

4) They are zero stat dependent, which is maybe good, maybe bad. I realized that other than a 14 wisdom to be able to cast spells, you can put your stat points wherever you want. Since there's no feats for the class, I just took EWP: Fauchard, a 16 Str, and went around beating on things like a bad fighter, while my spirit companion scouted for us. This felt all right, overall, power-wise, but not fitting the flavor of the class. It was far better to hit for 1d10+5 damage than any of my spell options.

5) Incoporeal mode on the phantom is currently broken. (Broken as in "not really functioning" rather than "too powerful.) Since they can't attack in incorporeal mode, and can't even fly until 11th level, all they are is a slightly upscale version of mage hand. While they can theoretically deliver touch spells, the spiritualist *doesn't have any touch spells worth casting*. Where is Chill Touch? Frigid Touch? All they get are inflict spells, which are pointless since they get so few spells per day, and retarded (as in slowed) access to higher level spells. 1d8+3, save for half, at 3rd level is far worse than 1d10+5 (fauchard) and +4/+4 1d6+1 (pet damage). And their spell list in general is pretty meh.

6) There's repeated mention of "appropriate appendages", but all phantoms have to be humanoid-shaped. This is probably due to just copy/pasting the summoner, which can have eidolons with hooves and whatnot.

7) There probably should be some glue rules in place that allow mechanics for eidolons to work with phantoms, so you don't need to reprint Rejuvenate Eidolon and whatnot, or existing feats.

8) DR and hardness makes phantoms sad.

9) Calm Spirits should probably be granted much earlier, since haunts make their appearances more often in low level adventures.

10) The stat array of a quadruped eidolon is: 14/14/13/7/10/11. The starting array of a phantom is 12/14/13/7/10/13. (Most eidolons will really have a 16 starting str instead of a 14, too.) So they're already starting at a deficit in combat abilities. (Since they don't actually use charisma for anything, their 13 Cha is pointless.)

11) Eidolons get 3 evolution points at first level. Phantoms get something resembling three evolution points, but they're fixed, and suboptimal. So instead of an 18 strength biped eidolon with a bite and two claws for +5/+5/+5 1d6+4/1d4+4/1d4+4 damage (10.25 DPR) at 1st level, we have an Anger phantom at +3/+3 for 1d8+2 damage (5.2 DPR). Exact same defenses. This is why they feel weak - even the best offensive phantom deals *half* the damage of a first level eidolon. And phantoms don't really get any better - they never pick up additional attacks. Eidolons end up growing tentacles, horns, and additional limbs every level, and eventually grow in size permanently, whereas only Anger gets to grow in size, and only once per day.

12) Phase lurch needs to clarify if it can pass through things like ghost touch nets, walls of force, and the like.

13) I don't think I'd ever use the bonded manifestations, ever. A standard action to gain a +4 shield bonus to AC? I'd rather pull my wand of Shield and cast it, and not losing my pet to do so. Ghost touch might be nice, but it's not worth using a standard action to recall a pet, and a standard action to activate - and it's still probably not worth it. Ectoplasmic tentacles have the same stats as your pet, so it's pointless, except in some edge situations like a really crowded corridor. Flight and incorporeality are really nice, but at level 18 you should have flight anyway, and a spectral shroud isn't expensive.

14) Spiritual interference and greater spiritual interference are awesome, and far better than the bonded manifestations.

15) The level 7 auras seem to be the primary reason to use a phantom, but some of them are bookkeeping nightmares, like hateful aura and jealous combatant. Imagine a bunch of monsters full attacking the spiritualist at 7th level and having to roll 20 saves to take 3 damage, save for 1.

Summary: I'm not feeling the class. Its class abilities are worse than the summoner's, its best combat pet is half as effective as the summoner's, and its spell list is worse as well. While I absolutely do not want another summoner (since it's too powerful), a new class that is inferior on all fronts will not inspire people to really get into it. The phantom makes for a great scout, but there's a lot of classes that can scout really well, without losing class abilities to do so.

Suggestion: Boost the phantom's base combat ability at least a little bit. Drop the DR 5/slashing (which never gets better anyway) and improve their to-hit one way or another. Give them chill touch, frigid touch, vampiric touch, and maybe other touch spells so that incorporeal mode has some point. Let incorporeal mode fly from the start - it makes no sense to be able to pass through matter at will but not be able to fly. Instead of flight at 11th, it should be able to attack in incorporeal mode for half damage, and ectoplasmic mode should gain flight. (Slimer could pass through walls, but he could also fly.) Rework the spell list a bit. Give it a limited class resource like the summoner gets with its summon SLA, based on Wisdom, so you don't have Spiritualists tanking wisdom.

Wilder suggestion: Make the auras permanent, weaker, scaling, and give them out at first level instead. So it doesn't matter that they deal no damage - the party wants the anger spirit out for his +1 to hit aura. Maybe even allow it when partially manifested!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I'm sorry to say but I am really truly not a fan of the spiritualist getting an incorporeal spirit at level 1. The ability is really over powered.

Last weekend I did an adventure 6-06 with some friends and one of them brought a spiritualist. Being able to scout the entire dungeon before going in not only ruined the sense of risk that adventuring is supposed to have, but it also maximized resource usage which resulted in us curb stomping what looked like it should have been a pretty tough fight for level 1 and 2 adventurers.

I have also been thinking about what would happen in every other scenario I have played that if a spiritualist were present. In every case incorporeal scouting would have ruined it. We find the treasure, teleport in and kill the big bad and run. If we can't teleport in we perfectly spend resources to smash everything. We also never feel in danger because we know what is around the corner.

Incorporeal scounting is just too good. At least the shadow dancer has to pay through the nose to get it, but spiritualist is just getting it for free.

Scarab Sages

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Mahtobedis wrote:


Being able to scout the entire dungeon before going in not only ruined the sense of risk that adventuring is supposed to have, but it also maximized resource usage which resulted in us curb stomping what looked like it should have been a pretty tough fight for level 1 and 2 adventurers.

Maybe you had a easy dungeon that is weak towards scouting but my experience with a spiritualist scout was decent but not overpowered. I've been through Accursed Halls and Mummy's Mask Part 1.

- The incorporeal scout can't activate traps (unless 5 lbs is enough to do it which is unlikely) and is susceptible to haunts like normal.
- The incorporeal spirit can't go past 100' without being blown back to the ethereal plane.
- The incorporeal spirit still needs to make stealth checks since it is still visible (even though I admit it can hide in the floor and peek; but still require stealth to peek).
- The spirit has limited perception and so hiding creatures will still be hidden
- I've met up with undead, statues, elementals, stirges hiding in ceilings, Shadows, etc. that never materializes or becomes present unless something activates it. An incorporeal phantom would not normally be able to get them to come out.
- Once he scouts the spirit sucks in combat so I consider the scouting a small benefit to offset the weak combat value.

As far as I'm concerned, it does help eliminate surprise rounds if the spirit sees it but that's about it. The spirit is helpful in moving the adventure along since adventurers are less worried about charging into the next room but I consider that a positive and not a negative unless you like that nervousness. I've seen the same thing done with a highly armored dwarven tank just running through Emerald Spire and kiting mobs so I'm not hating the scouting so far.


Makes me think of "Me and my Hollow" if taken from a Bleach-ish perspective, or maybe Marona from Phantom Brave, only without putting your phantom into objects in order to create temporary allies.

I wonder if that would work as an archetype...

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