Lead Designer
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This thread is for general discussion of the Psychic base class, found in the Occult Adventures Playtest document. This thread should be used for general impressions and overall concerns and ideas. Feedback on a specific concept or rule should have its own thread created by you.
As a reminder, please be polite and courteous to your fellow posters. We are all here to endeavor to create a better play experience with these rules and excessive arguing and insults are inappropriate.
Thank you again for participating in the Occult Adventures Playtest
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Official Changes
The following are the official changes to the psychic’s abilities and spells. First off, the psychic does get iterative attacks as normal, but they’ve been omitted from the table by accident.
Class Skills: Add Diplomacy to the psychic’s class skill list.
Psychic Discipline: The saving throw for any discipline ability that allows a save is 10 + 1/2 psychic level + Intelligence modifier.
Phrenic PoolThe psychic gains this class feature at 1st level.
Phrenic Amplifications: The psychic gains her first amplification at 1st level instead of 3rd. She gains an additional amplification at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter. Adding a phrenic amplification is part of the action used to cast the spell. Change the following amplifications.
Complex Countermeasure This ability makes the spell harder to dispel, counterspell, or identify.
Conjured Armor: An 8th-level psychic uses the +2 bonus or her relevant modifier, whichever is higher.
Discipline of Abomination: In dark half, it should specify that attempting to return to normal is an ability that the psychic can used while she’s her dark half. The dark half can be used for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + the psychic’s Charisma modifier + 1/2 her psychic level.
Discipline of Pain: Change the following abilities.
Painful Resurgence: Change painful resurgence to the following: When you take damage, as an immediate action you can gain DR 2/— against the effect that damaged you. If you still took at least 5 points of damage after applying DR, you regain 1 point in your phrenic pool. The amount of DR increases by 1 for every 4 psychic levels you possess beyond the first. The amount of damage you must still take to regain phrenic points is equal to your character level at every level beyond 5th. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier, and can use it no more than once per hour.
Agonizing Wound: Move dazed from the initial list of conditions onto the list of conditions that can be applied if you expend 2 uses of the ability. Remove stunned from the latter list.
Discipline of Tranquility: In the bonus spells list, change detect thoughts to silence.
Remade Self: This ability should clarify that the spell is chosen when the psychic reaches 20th level and can’t be changed.
Spells
Remove permanency from the 6th-level spell list. Add lesser create demiplane to the 7th-level list, create demiplane to the 8th-level list, and greater create demiplane to the 9th-level list.
p. 45 - Does the Psychic gain iterative attacks?
p. 48 - Second column, Purge Disquiet (Su), second line, the word 'fear' should be italicized.
I find it strange that this class only has 3 disciplines. It's like getting only three sorcerer bloodlines to choose from. Interesting class, it's an int based spontaneous full caster.
Psychic class table has 'psychic phrenic' feature listed. I think it meant 'phrenic pool'.
Overpowering Mind phrenic amplification meaninglessly says that at 1st level you can spend one phrenic point, despite the fact that you don't get that ability before 3rd level.
Subordinate Spell major amplification states that the subordinate spell cannot be lower than 5th level. With a restriction that subordinate spell level have to be the primary spell's level -5 means that it can't be used before gaining access to 10th level spell... :P
EDIT: OK, I looked on it once again and then I got that the linked spell refers to primary spell and not to subordinate spell. I would advise rewording to avoid such confusion. As far as I understand linked implies subordination, partnership, or secondary subject not dominant/primary subject of a relationship.
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Quick first impressions before digging into the class more: I'm concerned by the limited spell list and
Conjured Armor (Su): By spending 1 point from her
phrenic pool, the psychic grants any creature she conjures
or summons with the linked spell a +2 def lection bonus
to AC. This bonus lasts for 1 round per caster level or
until the creature disappears, whichever comes first. This
amplification can be linked only to spells of the conjuration
(calling) or conjuration (summoning) subschools. At 8th
level, the bonus is instead equal to the psychic’s Wisdom or
Charisma modifier, as determined by her psychic discipline.
Am I missing something or is the first time this is applicable is Lessar Planar Ally at L8 (which takes 10 minutes to cast and negotiations could possibly take longer than 8 rounds)? I'm not seeing much synergy between this ability and the few summon spells on the psychic's spell list (all of which you would do long before entering a dangerous situation).
With a large suite of spells, psychics can handle
many situations, but they excel at moving and manipulating
objects, as well as reading or influencing thoughts.
I'd love to see more force spells on the list (spiritual weapon, Emergency force sphere, force punch, force anchor, chain of perdition). Sift would make a good cantrip.
Is there any particular reason why morphic form of Discipline Of Abomination uses d100 instead of d4?
Loving the playtest, this book is pretty much everything I've been wanting included in Pathfinder for awhile now.
Is there any reason why the Psychic doesn't have the create demiplane line of spells on their spell list? I was expecting it from the history of Psionics and the Genesis power.
My first impression is that the transmutation spells on the Psychic's list seem out of place, flavor-wise. Puffing up a Barbarian to giant size or shrinking a rogue down to cat size seems very Magicky to me. Creating an illusion like Silent Image and things like Detect Spells seem more on the money.
You can memorize a piece of
information and later recall it perfectly. Your mnemonic
cache can hold roughly 10 pages of written information or
30 minutes worth of speech or music. (Memorizing music
doesn’t confer the ability to perform it properly.) You can
hold only one piece of information in your mnemonic
cache at a time. The information doesn’t go away when you
recall it, but when you put a new piece of information in
the cache, the old piece becomes like any other memory. If
you’re in telepathic contact with another creature (through
telepathic bond, for example), you can transfer the information
directly into its mind as a free action. For this creature, the
information functions like a normal memory, not one with
perfect clarity.
So, like a photographic memory, with 10 pages worth of hard drive? And you can share the thumbnail with a friend, but they can't read code. Got it.
You can attempt to sequester a written magical trap (such
as explosive runes or sepia snake sigil) in your mnemonic cache
and destroy it. Treat this as making a Disable Device check
to disarm a magical trap (as though you had the trapfinding
class feature). You use the higher of your Disable Device
modifier or 5 + your psychic level + your Wisdom modifier,
whichever is higher. If you succeed, instead of being disabled
the trap is erased and destroyed. This ability can’t destroy
symbol traps; it functions only if written text is involved.
Um, what?
Are you taking a physical magical trap and putting it in your brain and then disabling it? Or are you keeping a trap from going off inside your brain? I'm not clear on what's happening here.
While she’s her dark half, a psychic can’t use any Charisma-,
Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics,
Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience
or concentration other than casting psychic spells.
The instinctively cruel alter ego can't use Intimidate? The class skill provided by the discipline?
The instinctively cruel alter ego can't use Intimidate? The class skill provided by the discipline?While she’s her dark half, a psychic can’t use any Charisma-,
Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics,
Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience
or concentration other than casting psychic spells.
Uh, you might want to re-read that quote.
At first glance, the class looks fun. Int based spontaneous caster is something I've wanted to see for a while.
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The instinctively cruel alter ego can't use Intimidate? The class skill provided by the discipline?While she’s her dark half, a psychic can’t use any Charisma-,
Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics,
Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience
or concentration other than casting psychic spells.Uh, you might want to re-read that quote.
At first glance, the class looks fun. Int based spontaneous caster is something I've wanted to see for a while.
Yup, I see it now. Except transmogrified into Including in my brain. That's what happens when a new playtest comes out just before game night.
I find it strange that this class only has 3 disciplines. It's like getting only three sorcerer bloodlines to choose from. Interesting class, it's an int based spontaneous full caster.
Abomination, Pain, Lore, and Tranquility. I count four.
Well still only four and we usually get like 7-10 choices but it is just the first playtest.
Can we do better than Detect Thoughts for a Tranquil Discipline's level four bonus spell? Looks like every other discipline gets a second level spell at that level - Alter Self, Fox's Cunning, False Life.
Furthermore, the only Psychic Spell offered at level one is Mind thrust. I can't think of another divination that does HP damage, and few offer a will save. Naturally this makes me look at what other divinations are available at first level and which offer a will save. Detect Thoughts naturally jumps out at you - what's more Psychic?
Therefore Spell Focus: Divination seems like a reasonable first level feat, given that it will stay relevant if you stick with the Mind Thrust chain.
In other words, why would I wait til fourth level for Detect Thoughts?
Might I suggest Calm Emotions as a reasonable substitute for the 2nd level bonus spell offered by (ahem) the Discipline of Tranquility?
Is there maybe a reluctance to offer three Enchantments as consecutive bonus spells?
It seems like Discipline of Pain is just straight up superior to the other options.
Abomination
- Cha/rds a day get +1 to spell DCs and +2 morale on Will saves, plus immunity to Fear. Hard to control usage at low levels due to Concentration to turn it off.
- Get DR 5 of a random easily penetrated type.
- Weak constant SR that gets much stronger (for good or ill) while in Dark Half.
Lore
- Gain phrenic points back when you cast divinations to get answers to questions.
- Be able to memorize a specific amount of information (which is super weird; there aren't any rules for this kind of thing, your character can remember pretty much anything you want), disable written (explosive runes) magical traps with your brain.
- 1/day mage's mansion and moderate bonuses to knowledge skills.
Tranquility
- Wis/day burn an immediate action for +2 on a Will save (+4 vs Enchantment), get a phrenic point back if it succeeds.
- Calm emotions Wis/day. Calm emotions is an extremely niche spell and requires concentration, you will probably never use all of your uses/day, and rarely use it at all.
- Immune to fear and confusion. Suppress fear or confusion on one person (and one person only) as a standard action for 1 round/level.
Pain
- +1 phrenic point per 10 points of damage taken (once per minute). This lets you get pretty much infinite phrenic points at the cost of 30 gp each (from wand of cure light wounds), or for free if you were going to be healed anyway by asking your martial buddy to slap you in the face for 10 nonlethal damage.
- Cha/day inflict very minor damage on someone you hurt with a spell last round.
- Gain Lay On Hands that's almost as good as a straight-classed paladin's, including mercies. Get a free breath of life on yourself 1/day to save your bacon if you do somehow die.
- 3+Cha/day force a will save versus being dazed for a number of rounds equal to your Cha mod when you cast a damage spell at someone. Dazing Spell sit down and take notice. Other options exist to frighten or sicken, but way more targets are immune to those conditions and they're weaker than dazing. You can spend two uses to stun for 1 round instead of dazing for the entire fight, which is also pointless, but the main use is still overwhelmingly powerful.
It seems like Discipline of Pain is just straight up superior to the other options.
Abomination
- Cha/rds a day get +1 to spell DCs and +2 morale on Will saves, plus immunity to Fear. Hard to control usage at low levels due to Concentration to turn it off.
- Get DR 5 of a random easily penetrated type.
- Weak constant SR that gets much stronger (for good or ill) while in Dark Half.Lore
- Gain phrenic points back when you cast divinations to get answers to questions.
- Be able to memorize a specific amount of information (which is super weird; there aren't any rules for this kind of thing, your character can remember pretty much anything you want), disable written (explosive runes) magical traps with your brain.
- 1/day mage's mansion and moderate bonuses to knowledge skills.Tranquility
- Wis/day burn an immediate action for +2 on a Will save (+4 vs Enchantment), get a phrenic point back if it succeeds.
- Calm emotions Wis/day. Calm emotions is an extremely niche spell and requires concentration, you will probably never use all of your uses/day, and rarely use it at all.
- Immune to fear and confusion. Suppress fear or confusion on one person (and one person only) as a standard action for 1 round/level.Pain
- +1 phrenic point per 10 points of damage taken (once per minute). This lets you get pretty much infinite phrenic points at the cost of 30 gp each (from wand of cure light wounds), or for free if you were going to be healed anyway by asking your martial buddy to slap you in the face for 10 nonlethal damage.
- Cha/day inflict very minor damage on someone you hurt with a spell last round.
- Gain Lay On Hands that's almost as good as a straight-classed paladin's, including mercies. Get a free breath of life on yourself 1/day to save your bacon if you do somehow die.
- 3+Cha/day force a will save versus being dazed for a number of rounds equal to your Cha mod when you cast a damage spell at someone. Dazing...
I think you're reading Painful Resurgence wrong. The key word is regain.
I'm not seeing anything that indicates you can overflow your pool. So, not 60 points/hour.
Also, Calm Emotions a niche spell? Strongly disagree. It's terrific at ending encounters with animal monsters who are protecting their nest/cubs, deactivating enemy bards and barbarians, and curing allies from being frightened or shaken or confused.
In addition, it's useful in social encounters against the hostile barkeep or whatever.
I didn't suggest you could overflow your pool. But you can refill it as much as you like and not worry about running out beyond using all of them in a single encounter.
Those are all fairly niche situations.
The hostile barkeep is gonna be a lot more hostile when the spell ends and he still remembers how you cast a spell that messed with his head.
The real winners here though are Lay On Hands plus mercies and being able to tack a super long duration daze onto your spells a large number of times per day. A ton of extra fuel for Triumphant Emotion and Subordinate Spell is pretty amazing too.
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Developer
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Just to clarify, can the psychic take craft wands and scribe scrolls and make a wand of psychic crush V and scroll of ego whip 4?
Can the psychic use wand/scroll of magic missile? (it appears on the spell list).
The psychic can use a wand of magic missile since magic missile is on her spell list. She can't use an arcane scroll of magic missile nor a divine one. We haven't yet discussed whether you can make a psychic scroll, but it's likely.
We also haven't broken down how the multi-level spells will work with magic items, but that's a good question!
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I really like the concept of this class, and I love the undercasting feature in psychic spells. I will say that the psychic's role includes the phrase "but they excel at moving and manipulating objects", but I'm not seeing a whole lot of that in the class abilities presented.
You had might as well give the psychic light armour proficiency. You're going to get them all running around in mithral chain shirts anyway due to lack of any arcane spell failure.
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Developer
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Hey, folks, I dove right into answering questions without introducing myself!
I'm Logan, the design lead for the psychic. I'll be keeping the closest watch on your questions and comments about this class.
One thing I'm seeing repeatedly here are requests for more spells on the psychic's spell list. I think we're going to expand it a fair amount, both with new spells for this book and with some categories that a pretty light right now (such as summoning spells). Unlike the mesmerist, this class should be able to cast plenty of spells that have physical effects rather than just mental ones. The spell list isn't reflecting that as much as it will need to.
Hey, folks, I dove right into answering questions without introducing myself!
I'm Logan, the design lead for the psychic. I'll be keeping the closest watch on your questions and comments about this class.
One thing I'm seeing repeatedly here are requests for more spells on the psychic's spell list. I think we're going to expand it a fair amount, both with new spells for this book and with some categories that a pretty light right now (such as summoning spells). Unlike the mesmerist, this class should be able to cast plenty of spells that have physical effects rather than just mental ones. The spell list isn't reflecting that as much as it will need to.
On that note it seemed important to mention that though the Psychic currently has access to both Planar Ally and Planar Binding... no Magic Circles are on his spell list.
I didn't suggest you could overflow your pool. But you can refill it as much as you like and not worry about running out beyond using all of them in a single encounter.
So, the fighter has to keep burning his standard actions to hurt you? And a dedicated healer has to keep healing you? This sounds a lot more niche than anything I'm talking about.
Those are all fairly niche situations.
Even combined? I disagree. Those were all from my career as a Pathfinding adventurer. And I'm sure the creative Psychic can come up with more uses for it.
The hostile barkeep is gonna be a lot more hostile when the spell ends and he still remembers how you cast a spell that messed with his head.
Who's casting spells? I'm a Psychic. I can stand with my arms crossed and Calm your Emotions with the flick of an eyebrow.
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Developer
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On that note it seemed important to mention that though the Psychic currently has access to both Planar Ally and Planar Binding... no Magic Circles are on his spell list.
Good point! I think in the long run we'll more likely implement new forms of calling outsiders rather than adding magic circles to the spell list. Not sure yet.
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It would be awesome to have ways to call Dark Tapestry/Mythos creatures moreso than outsiders...
I think that would be a good thematic fit. We'll look at adding those!
Thank you very much!
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Joey. Out of combat. You are not being punched and healed in the middle of a fight. You know this. I even mentioned a wand of cure light wounds, which is an out of combat healing tool. :|
Yes, all combined you'll probably only see fear come up in most campaigns. Some GMs might include opposing barbarians or bards, but not many and not often. And if you're shutting off fear effects on allies, you're also shutting off any morale bonuses.
You're aware when someone casts a spell (which psychics do). It doesn't matter that you don't have somatic or vocal components. Your spell is still visible, still identifiable with Spellcraft, and still provokes attacks of opportunity.
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Maybe instead of scrolls, psychics can use crystals to contain psychic spells.
Hey, folks, I dove right into answering questions without introducing myself!
I'm Logan, the design lead for the psychic. I'll be keeping the closest watch on your questions and comments about this class.
One thing I'm seeing repeatedly here are requests for more spells on the psychic's spell list. I think we're going to expand it a fair amount, both with new spells for this book and with some categories that a pretty light right now (such as summoning spells). Unlike the mesmerist, this class should be able to cast plenty of spells that have physical effects rather than just mental ones. The spell list isn't reflecting that as much as it will need to.
I'd also like to see more options for spells peculiar to the psychic at lower levels. And maybe a cantri... er, knack or two that's just for Psychics (or Psychic spellcasters).
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Just to clarify, can the psychic take craft wands and scribe scrolls and make a wand of psychic crush V and scroll of ego whip 4?
Can the psychic use wand/scroll of magic missile? (it appears on the spell list).
The psychic can use a wand of magic missile since magic missile is on her spell list. She can't use an arcane scroll of magic missile nor a divine one. We haven't yet discussed whether you can make a psychic scroll, but it's likely.
We also haven't broken down how the multi-level spells will work with magic items, but that's a good question!
To be fair, this won't matter in PFS. Scrolls are neither Arcane nor Divine in societies.
Why no social skill for the (unCharismatic) Psychic? If there's one thing a telepath should be able to do, it's lie to you.
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Joey. Out of combat. You are not being punched and healed in the middle of a fight. You know this. I even mentioned a wand of cure light wounds, which is an out of combat healing tool. :|
Yes, all combined you'll probably only see fear come up in most campaigns. Some GMs might include opposing barbarians or bards, but not many and not often. And if you're shutting off fear effects on allies, you're also shutting off any morale bonuses.
You're aware when someone casts a spell (which psychics do). It doesn't matter that you don't have somatic or vocal components. Your spell is still visible, still identifiable with Spellcraft, and still provokes attacks of opportunity.
I'm not at all aware that the spell is visible at all and I have that pending as a question in the psychic magic thread. It's been discussed that an attack of opp from casting a spell has less to do with the opponent knowing that you're casting and more to do with letting your guard down. If you want to rebut, post on that board.
And I'm also not clear on what you're hoping to milk out of "infinite" phrenic points. Example?
Expend as many of your phrenic points as you like in one encounter, nova-ing out tons of Subordinate Spells, etc. and dramatically increasing your power output.
Recover them out of combat and repeat, maintaining a higher level of effectiveness per round than possible with the other disciplines.
I don't necessarily think this is overpowered (I'd have to play around with their spell list, which I haven't examined beyond the new spells), but combined with two other extremely potent abilities it's certainly much stronger than the other available options. Whether this means it needs to be toned down and/or the other disciplines need a boost, I'm not sure yet.
Expend as many of your phrenic points as you like in one encounter, nova-ing out tons of Subordinate Spells, etc. and dramatically increasing your power output.
Recover them out of combat and repeat, maintaining a higher level of effectiveness per round than possible with the other disciplines.
I don't necessarily think this is overpowered (I'd have to play around with their spell list, which I haven't examined beyond the new spells), but combined with two other extremely potent abilities it's certainly much stronger than the other available options. Whether this means it needs to be toned down and/or the other disciplines need a boost, I'm not sure yet.
So in essence you're saying that you can more or less have your full phrenic points for every encounter. Okay, that's not nothing. Might make for some interesting RP coming up with the arrangement wherein another party member has to whack the Disciple of Pain between fights. Does seem like it could easily lend itself to a more adult version of Pathfinder, especially if you're playing with a significant other.
I'll also point out that Pain seems to be the only Discipline that has two abilities at level one, both of which are pretty useful. (The jury's out on the usefulness of being able to memorize up to ten pages).
Yeah. It's very hard to judge how useful that is since there aren't normally any rules about memorizing things. How much a character can normally memorize is going to see a lot of table variance (though I doubt many people would let you memorize word-for-word what it says in a document).
My general comment:
The psychic doesn't have many options for, well, actually hurting things in combat. Inconveniencing them mightily? Yes. Controlling them? Yes. Confusing them? Of course.
But beyond magic missile and a few save-or-die spells scattered throughout, you've got the mind-affecting only mind thrust and psychic crush lines of spells with which to actually put hurt on an opponent, and these are limited to single target and look a bit weaksauce to boot.
This is probably intended as part of the class design (otherwise why not just play a sorcerer). However, my opinion is that it'd be good to have some sort of general self-defense setup for this class.
Put this guy and a skeleton in a room by themselves together, and the psychic is going to have to bust out his belt knife and go chipping away to survive.
Another point of opinion:
This guy looks way too much like the sorcerer to be a distinct base class. Make a "psychic" bloodline, slap int-attribute casting on it, and what's really so very different here?
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Psychic scrolls sounds hinky to me. Crystals fit the theme more. Make 'em a spell completion item, like scrolls, but somehow, "Let me read this written-out embodiment of the raw power of my mind" doesn't seem to work.
A mandala is a lot like a psychic scroll. The bad guy in Kung Fu Panda thinks the dragon scroll is a psychic scroll. The spellbooks in The Dying Earth are essentially psychic diagrams. I don't have a problem with that.
I do wonder what separates the Psychic class thematically from an Aberrant sorcerer or a sorcerer with some theoretical Psychic bloodline.
The crystals could hold a psychic memory, emotion, or though instead of writing or symbols. So basically the psychic is sensing/seeing this in the crystal as opposed to reading it like words. Also it fits the emotion and thought spell components angle much better.
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I think the class skills on Pain and Tranquility could change.
Diplomacy strikes me more as the tranquility option since they would be advocating calm and peace rather than tracking and survival.
Pain I'm not as sure about. You get power from pain which can be intimidating as someone laughs and seems to enjoy the more damage you do but at the same time I see it as someone who takes anything and comes out the other end alive indicating heal (patching oneself up) or survival (just downright living in even the harshest of conditions)
I could totally see playing a lore psychic and taking perform impression to replicate overheard conversations with voice acting.
I hope to see more disciplines to see what comes out of this class.