|
What was the rationale behind making Kinetic Blade cost 1 Burn? To stop Rogues from dipping for an at-will melee touch? It's a pity it can't be used routinely to charge or to skirmish until level 5.
Am I correct in the assumption that melee (esp. with Haste) is the most reliable way to do lots of damage to a single target?
Melee vs ranged depends on your style and also on situational aspects, although having both of them for switch-hitting is never bad. Depending on how you're doing on the accuracy of those iteratives, as well as on whether there's DR or energy resistance happening, the damage bonus from elemental overflow combined with no-burn empower (or later no-burn empowered composite) can make the ranged attack superior for a single target.
|
|
Oh, right! Forgot about the empowering. Still, Haste, being an extra full-BAB attack, has to be a game-changer, accuracy or not...
Speaking of accuracy, my impression is that full-BAB classes constantly work below full theoretical accuracy due to Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot etc. Shouldn't a Kineticist who doesn't do that (and I guess he shouldn't) be able to keep up?
Does anyone use composite blasts before Supercharge? Even then, how does it compare to Maximize?
Does anyone use substance infusions other than Burning and Bowling?
Are Touch blasts worth it?
|
|
Mark, I have a question on the Wall infusion:
All creatures and objects in one of the wall’s squares when you create it take 1/4 the normal damage from your blast with no saving throw (or half the normal damage for an energy blast). Anytime a creature crosses the wall, it takes half the normal damage from your blast (or full damage for an energy blast).
Do creatures who start or end their turn in the wall also take damage? If so, which one? What exactly constitutes as crossing the wall? For instance, if I place the wall through the near-side squares of a giant and he moves towards me, is that "crossing"? Does being pushed into a wall count as crossing it? (If so, I can see some utility in the Pushing Infusion after all...)
|
|
Also, I don't suppose it's possible to swap out basic blasts as it is for utilities and infusions? For instance, I'd be interested in starting as a Hydro with water blasts and then taking on Geo at 7th. At that point, though, the water blast is redundant with the earth blast, and I'd rather have the cold blast to have some touch-attack capability.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mark, I have a question on the Wall infusion:
All creatures and objects in one of the wall’s squares when you create it take 1/4 the normal damage from your blast with no saving throw (or half the normal damage for an energy blast). Anytime a creature crosses the wall, it takes half the normal damage from your blast (or full damage for an energy blast).Do creatures who start or end their turn in the wall also take damage? If so, which one? What exactly constitutes as crossing the wall? For instance, if I place the wall through the near-side squares of a giant and he moves towards me, is that "crossing"? Does being pushed into a wall count as crossing it? (If so, I can see some utility in the Pushing Infusion after all...)
So walls only exist on the edge of a square. Other than the lower initial damage of creation, you can hang out in a square with a wall on the edge no problem. But if you cross that edge, you take the damage. On a grid, just draw a line on the edges where the wall is with like a red marker. If a miniature crosses that line, damage! And yes, combos well with pushing for sure!
|
|
If a miniature crosses that line, damage! And yes, combos well with pushing for sure!
Thanks! Does that also apply when a 2x2 creature with a wall through the middle moves in any direction?
On a different matter, in your playtests, are the first 6 levels hard on pyros or other energy-blast users? Conversely, is an energy blast a must-have at mid to late levels?
If a miniature crosses that line, damage! And yes, combos well with pushing for sure!Thanks! Does that also apply when a 2x2 creature with a wall through the middle moves in any direction?
On a different matter, in your playtests, are the first 6 levels hard on pyros or other energy-blast users? Conversely, is an energy blast a must-have at mid to late levels?
Huh, I wonder how most wall spells rule on that. I'd say they get to move out of that situation once "for free" in that case, since they already took the initial damage on creation. Wall of fire has similar ways to do slight adjudication differences on how and when the damage happens.
What about the other question? Is it tough to be stuck with an energy blast in the early levels, or without one in the later levels?
In my personal playtests, this has not been the case. With intelligent and dynamic character builds (or at least I like to think I use such!) both energy and physical blasts were extremely useful at a wide range of levels (at one point, I specifically made an all-earth physical blast only geo and an all-fire energy blast only pyro, and they were both highly effective). When adventuring together at high levels, the geo was highly effective as a switch-hitter, often riding his blast over to enemies in the back lines and then meleeing with kinetic blade. Meanwhile, the pyro had a variety of useful AoE effects, and the two of them had synergistic debuffs in their substance infusions. Quite the team!
If anything, energy blast has both pros and cons at different levels, and I would say that the worst combo is probably a kineticist with no fire and only energy blasts at high levels (13+), but I think that's literally impossible.
If anything, energy blast has both pros and cons at different levels, and I would say that the worst combo is probably a kineticist with no fire and only energy blasts at high levels (13+), but I think that's literally impossible.
It's literally impossible to play an energy blaster that doesn't use fire at high levels? As in, it's literally impossible to use an Aerokinetic that uses electricity at high levels? Or a Hydrokinetic that uses the cold blast? Or a Aero/Hydrokinetic that uses an Electric/Cold blast?
Why is it literally impossible to use energy blast at high levels without using fire?
If anything, energy blast has both pros and cons at different levels, and I would say that the worst combo is probably a kineticist with no fire and only energy blasts at high levels (13+), but I think that's literally impossible.It's literally impossible to play an energy blaster that doesn't use fire at high levels? As in, it's literally impossible to use an Aerokinetic that uses electricity at high levels? Or a Hydrokinetic that uses the cold blast? Or a Aero/Hydrokinetic that uses an Electric/Cold blast?
Why is it literally impossible to use energy blast at high levels without using fire?
Yes, I believe it is literally impossible (remember, what I said is literally impossible is possessing neither physical blast, nor fire, as an option, after the second expanded element; that is, it is literally impossible to possess only energy options and no fire).
Here's why: Now that expanded element is a class feature, you are guaranteed two picks by that level. So assume we started as hydro with ice (or aero with lightning) and then picked the other one with our first pick. Where do we go next? Aether? Now we have physical. Earth? Also physical. Fire? Gives fire. Water? Gives water this time, which is also physical. So no matter what you do, at level 13, you have at least one physical blast, or you have fire blast.
Still though, the question remains. Why ONLY fire? At higher levels energy tends to fall afoul of resistance, and you do have to deal with spell resistance here (actually, it appears you still have to deal with spell resistance even on a purely physical blast?), so the energy types that aren't able to go down the blue-flame upgrade line (which is all of them that aren't fire) are going to fall short, as you yourself have explained.
The question is *WHY*? I mean, it's an obvious problem or at least omission, as it's not like the other elements get similar treatment. They just... fall behind, as even fire has several physical combos. Why make purposefully inferior options of something that should probably be just a flavor (favored element) issue?
The options aren't inferior at higher level. They're situational options.
If you go straight Aero or Hydro, you get both physical and energy. If something has loads of SR or tons of immunity, fire your physical blast. For things that don't have it, fire your energy blast because you resolve against glorious, glorious touch AC.
If you go straight Geo, you don't get an energy option, but you do get a double-physical composite blast, which will power its way through any DR like a charm, and you've got area options if full AC proves too problematic.
Straight Aether gets a ton of useful combat-ready telekinesis options any time a physical blast isn't appropriate, and force damage gets around the resistance/immunity issue.
|
|
Pros and cons of energy blasts: I do see that, though I have the impression that a physical blaster is always useful (always above level-appropriate DR) while there are such things as 100% fireproof creatures from the earliest levels...
I guess Geo first and Cold second would make the best switch hitter, though I'd miss out on the utility of early Slick or of the 6th level mobility skills. Argh! I guess this means the elements are really well balanced. ;o)
|
|
Has there been a final verdict if gather power (and supercharge) can reduce the cost of metakinesis? Sorry for asking something that was asked before but this thread is way too long to find my way through.
Yes, it works. Meta increases the cost of a blast and Gather Power decreases it again. You can't apply Gather Power to a utility, though.
Pros and cons of energy blasts: I do see that, though I have the impression that a physical blaster is always useful (always above level-appropriate DR) while there are such things as 100% fireproof creatures from the earliest levels...
I guess Geo first and Cold second would make the best switch hitter, though I'd miss out on the utility of early Slick or of the 6th level mobility skills. Argh! I guess this means the elements are really well balanced. ;o)
Air and water can mono-element switch-hit, and you get a wild talent out of it.
|
|
Aether also has a lot of utility in its wild talents. I think it sacrifices power for versatiliy. (Due to the power hit and lack of synergy with other elements, though, I don't feel particularly tempted to play it.)
As for my geo/hydro conundrum, I've run some numbers and come to the conclusion that, barring a lot of immune enemies, starting with Cold and branching into Geo at 7th shouldn't be that much of a problem. Energy blasts aren't exactly awe-inspiring at first level, but neither are bows, for that matter. And should there be a cold-immune enemy, there's still Slick as a great non-attack fallback ability, which other elements seem to be lacking.
I really wish there were a way to pick up another base blast earlier than 7th, though! It's not like I'd want the composite to go with it until much later, so it would only be a versatility issue rather than a power one. Maybe there'll be an archetype to that end someday...?
|
I'm re-building my Aerokineticist and have noticed a small problem, or more accurately, a definitive lack of choice. At level 5 when most elements get to choose their first level 2 infusion Aerokineticists don't. They get to choose a third level 1, because there are NO level 2 infusions, actually there are NO level 2 Air Wild Talents, and the Only Universal one is a Utility.
To make matters worse, I picked Electric Blast, so my first three Infusions must be chosen from a list of 5 different ones. One is an Air(electrical) exclusive, the other four are the Universal ones. Similarly, if you take the Air Blast or picked Fire you don't get a level 2 infusion choice, but you do get a second element specific choice for a total of 6 choices for your first three infusions.
Once you reach level 7 you get a second blast that you "could" have used with one of the other infusions, but you can't retrain (for free) any of them until level 11. This basically means if you pick an infusion you won't ever use because you "had" to take it, you will have a "wasted" class feature at least from level 5 to level 11. For me, the three I have to choose from that I don't see myself using are the Kinetic Fist, Kinetic Blade and Draining infusion. I'll probably take Draining if for no other reason then there will at least be a "chance" I'll run into something with the air subtype.
|
|
Drake, I'd talk to the DM; he might let you swap out a talent for another that you could have picked at the same level, rather than one of equal or lower level than the one you actually did pick.
That said, Kinetic Blade is actually pretty neat. If you get Haste cast on you (or use Celerity!), you can do full attacks with your blast, which should have a higher damage potential than your ranged blast. You'll need Weapon Finesse, but you're probably not that feat-starved.
|
|
Mark, I have a few questions on how things work exactly:
Smoke Storm: Does the open flame used as a source have to be in the center of the burst, or can I use a torch in my hand?
Ice Path: Is it an action to use, or does it just happen while I walk or stand around?
Telekinetic Haul: Can this be used to lift an object (such as a door) on which the Telekineticist herself can ride (albeit slowly)?
Telekinetic Invisibility: Is this meant to be self-only? As written, it can be cast on the whole party, one by one.
Torrent: Is this really not supposed to work with electricity? :O
Cheers!
Unfortunately I primarily play PFS, so that won't work :P
I didn't think of using Celerity on myself with Kinetic Blade, probably because I don't plan on getting into Melee much, if at all.
Couldn't you just use the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign then?
I only have one question regarding the kineticist: Is it at all possible to get 3rd level infusions prior to level 9? I ask because it just seems like a really late level to finally get another level of abilities.
Yes, you have to pick the same element you started with. That gets you a bonus talent at 7th.
A question regarding the Telekinetic wild talent Telekinetic Haul. The ability states that you can use burn, to increase the maximum weight to 1000 pounds per level of what you can lift and it extends the duration to 1 minute per level. Wow! What can I do with that? Well can I at level 6 lift a 6000 pound roman column and drop it on 6 Knolls repeatedly for 6 minutes? And if so how much Damage would that be? If one would use the Core books Telekinesis spell as a reference, a violent thrust with such an object would do 240d6 damage! That is so broken ...Note, I know Telekinetic haul says it does not increase the damage if used as a telekinetic blast(by the way using a blast to hurl a 6000 pound object 15 feet long at 6 Knolls and only ever hitting 1 for perhaps 12 damage breaks my ..immersion within the game), but I'm not using it as a blast now am I. So my question, put simply is "Can I use Telekinetic Haul to drop x wings on people like yoda, and if so how much damage would it do?" Would love some help, I'm Dming this Sat.
Hey William; you can use other forums now that the book is out, rather than this playtest thread!
In any case, while it's true that throwing x-wings and columns does not increase the telekinetic blast's damage, it is super-badass. Also, you can probably lift it up high and wait for the enemy to come under it and just drop it as a falling object, although it's true that the falling object rules state that they are general guidelines, so they are up to GM's discretion anyway (if you do use those guidelines, the Reflex save to halve the damage from a falling object is pretty easy, but if you can get a colossal object, 10d6 isn't too shabby at all when you first pick up haul).
Hello,
I'm posting here because I don't see anywhere else to ask my questions. If I posted on the wrong place, feel free to move my post to the correct section ;)
I have tried to build 2 different characters with the mechanics of the Kineticist that is, in my opinion very refreshing, but I couldn't get any build which was worth taking at the end.
Let me show you one build that I did to give you an example of the troubles I have with this class :
the idea of this build seems to be in par with how the class was built : bursting with maximum damage. When I built my character I quickly understood how CON was important so I maxed it out. I calculated what the character would look like at lvl 10 in order to have a good idea of how the class would evolve. I also maxed dexterity cause it seems to be the secondary caracteristic of the class and it allowed me to have initiative and a correct AC bonus.
Here are my maths : my character would have an average of 100 HP (with a +5 modifer on CON) with a burn pool/day of 10-11. It would also have a burn pool per round of 3 and an internal buffer of 1 or 2 with the correct race.
If I want to make the build I imagined, I would try burst with maximum damage, that means that I would do a composite blast of air and fire in order to have range if needed and to boost damage. That would approximatly do 15d6 (extended = 1 burn) + 14 (elemental overflow bonus damage * 2 because of Fire's fury. Here is suppose I already have 3 burns on me in order to give you the maximum potential of the class) + 1 (point blank range) + 7 (CON mod). That means an average damage of 74.5 per round. The damage seems comparable with those of the ranger making a full round attack.
To do these damage that are pretty good I would need to focus with one move action and attack with a standard action, nothing to complain about on this, and I would spend 2 burns and take 20 non lethal damage.
So here is the problem, if my math is correct, that means that my character only has 5 attacks per day since it has a maximum burn pool per day of 10 or 11. It would also mean that my character if he does all of his attacks has to take 100 non lethal damage. It also means that my character cannot move when he attacks and if he wants to do anything else like maybe one crowd control from time to time, in order to change a little from attack, it would take him one of his attacks of the day.
I don't know if I interpret the class well but I currently don't find it playable at all, 5 attacks per DAY is really low and it doesn't even bring to the class any versatility or really good damage in exchange. You can do almost as good with a blast wizard or sorcerer except for the fact that those classes have everything else to play with outside combat with their spells and abilities and their damage is area of effect. And I'm not comparing it to the ranger which is far more effecient when talking about damage and utility...
I hope my analysis is wrong and I hope you can shed some light to this because this class is built exactly how I like a class to be. It is complicated and it offers lots of possibilities and great potential.
If you could help me see what I didn't understand in the rules , I would be really glad :)
I looked back at the Kineticist and I saw the infusion specialization class feature that changes a lot the way the class is actually working.
Now I see that it is possible to have multiple attacks per day with many effects combining with each other I can see the interest of taking this class.
I still feel the Kineticist is missing something since most of other classes in Pathfinder can do better in what Kineticist is supposed to be good at.
In my opinion, composite blasts are coming a little bit too late, they should have come around lvl 5-6 because the class is too weak early levels.
Same for composite specialization because if a kineticist must stay competitive in terms of damage, it must use the metakinesis ability. The problem about this ability is that it has a fixed cost which can't be reduced, and it's cost is directly taken from the burn pool which can't really be increased as the character levels up.
It may just be an impression, that is why I am discussing it here, because I'm not totally mastering the class as you guys do. I didn't even participate to the playtest so I don't have the experience about this class that other players may have
You're missing the fact that Gather Power can compensate for Empower and later (with Supercharge) for Composite.
Yes that is true but I feel like it isn't enough to compensate all the effects that you could add in order to get damage scalled compared to other classes.
Around lvl 15 for example a blast sorcerer or wizard will have quicken spell to do 2 fireballs with spell perfection and everything. The Kineticist does have metakinesis but getting a quicken on your blast is really expansive and it would probably be the only thing you Would apply to your blast in order to keep some resources for later combats. Added to that the wizard and sorcerer would do area damage, and additionally, the wizard has all the utilitarian spells that Kineticist can at best reproduce.
And let's not forget the non lethal damage...
But it is probably unfair to compare the kineticist to the tier 1 class. When compared to the ranger for example, it has strenghts that ranger doesn't have and vice versa. That's what I discovered from reading very carefully this class. That means, at least the class can be playable oppositly to what I said earlier :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're missing the fact that Gather Power can compensate for Empower and later (with Supercharge) for Composite.Yes that is true but I feel like it isn't enough to compensate all the effects that you could add in order to get damage scalled compared to other classes.
Around lvl 15 for example a blast sorcerer or wizard will have quicken spell to do 2 fireballs with spell perfection and everything. The Kineticist does have metakinesis but getting a quicken on your blast is really expansive and it would probably be the only thing you Would apply to your blast in order to keep some resources for later combats. Added to that the wizard and sorcerer would do area damage, and additionally, the wizard has all the utilitarian spells that Kineticist can at best reproduce.
And let's not forget the non lethal damage...
But it is probably unfair to compare the kineticist to the tier 1 class. When compared to the ranger for example, it has strenghts that ranger doesn't have and vice versa. That's what I discovered from reading very carefully this class. That means, at least the class can be playable oppositly to what I said earlier :)
Your biggest hurdle is that you are looking at the kineticist through the eyes of 'primary blaster'. The kineticist can blast, but that's not the only thing he does. Other classes do blasting better because they are using vancian casting and vancian casting is designed around the idea of "this is limited in use so it needs to be very powerful". Also, broken.
You're simply not going to beat Wizards and Sorcerers who've built dedicated, or even marginally dedicated, blaster builds because they simply do it better.
Instead, look at the Kinetcist as a tool boox, of which, blasting is one of those tools. Kineticists don't just blast all day long, it puts too much strain on their body. They have other things they can do, like tripping enemies, raising barriers, flooding ships, altering the terrain, most of which they can do without expending resources.
A Kineticist who spends all of her focus on blasting, is denying herself access to a very powerful aspect of her class. Her utility.
I, personally, think of the Kineticist as guerrilla characters. They excel at hit and run tactics and ambushes. A Kineticist as a scout is a great addition to the party, because they can hit hard, and every version of the kineticist has some sort of 'movement' ability to help them get away. Aerokinetics can fly, Telekineticis and Pyrokinetics can basically fly, Geokineticis are terrifying on the ground as they can melt into the ground and move around, and Hydrokinetics can surf on frozen waves of water that they create as they move (just like Iceman or Frozon from the Incredibles; though this is also the worst of the movement options). At higher levels, they can even transform into their element and teleport to the locations of their blast.
A pyrokinetic can, for example, use Mobile Blast to create a source of flame in the middle of a group, and then use Smoke Storm to turn it into a cloud of choking smoke, with which he debilitates his foes. Because he can see through the smoke (Firesight), he can then blast his enemies with impunity from outside the smoke while they are unable to target him. With Greater Flame Jet, he can also circle the smoke cloud after every blast so they never know where he's coming from, or he can Jet away to ambush them again at a later time.
This is great for an NPC villain, true, but it's also a great thing that a party scout can do. How many "scout" classes do you know that can single handedly take on groups of enemies while remaining almost completely safe from danger?
There is far more than blasting for the Kineticist can do. It's just one of their options, and not necessarily the "best" option for them either.
Well seeing from your point of you I have to say that I can only agree on all this, I'll try to build my kineticist with a little more utility than it currently has :)
Like I said on the previous post it may be unfair to compare the class to the wizard or to the sorcerer since they are much better at doing those things with their abilities.
I'll try this new build :D
It can definitely be used to trip or sunder, and if you make it light, you can finesse with it but not wield it in two hands. It doesn't grant any proficiencies, so the shape is mostly for cool factor. That said, this is a neat idea! I am strongly considering something special in there that lets you alter your kinetic blade to add weapon special qualities to it (like maybe adding a curving hook to add the disarm quality)So the ability creates a weapon made of your element, but uses neither the damage, nor threat range of the weapon you choose. So the choice of creating any one handed or light weapon is really just for cool points then? Does it affect the weapons finessability? Can it be used to trip or sunder like a normal weapon? Does it gain the normal weapon's special features (like trip, disarm or deadly)?Does kinetic blade use the critical threat range of the weapon you create? Since it says you actually create a weapon, I would expect yes.It should say it keeps the blast's crit range somewhere in that second-to-last sentence. But you should be able to do things like Weapon Focus or (possibly if you aren't using a touch one) Power Attack.
If a kinetic blade is used to sunder, what would the weapon modifier be considered to be? Flat + or increasing with level? I ask because having an ever ready adamantine beatstick with con based damage is...convenient.
|
Another question popping up in my thread:
Can a kineticist use kinetic blade to allow them to use a conductive melee weapon?
Also if a kineticist applies a substance infusion while using a conductive weapon, are they required to pay twice the burn cost to do so?
Sorry if these were already answered, but no one's linking me a response which is often what happens whenever I hit a wall on a ruling, so I figured I should ask here.
|
Don't know if this has already been answered but would the kinecticist kinetic blast work while raging and if so would the deadly infusing also work?
The reason why I'm asking is when I was trying some ideas in hero lab I noticed that combining the barbarians rage with a deadly infusion damage to be greater, which when made me grin more than it should have.