General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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brightshadow360 wrote:
Tels wrote:


I.... would not use charismatic, diplomatic, persuasive or deceptive to describe Natsu.

Being loyal to a group of friends and getting aggressive at the thought of combat is not something restricted to Charisma. I mean, if that were true, then Barbarians would all be charisma based.

Here are the rulebook descriptions for WIS and CHA:

"Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition."

"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."

I would say that natsu is very charismatic and is very err..."persuasive". Diplomatic and deceptive though? not so much. Almost seems like there are two kinds of charisma in pathfinder: the "I know what I want and what to do follow me and don't question it!" kind and the "I will totally confuse you into doing what I want with my charm" type. it's probably the most difficult to pin down stat in the game.

on a side note how is natsu and his lot WIZARDS? the series calls them wizards but I have never seen one of them crack open a book.

Dragon78 wrote:

Mark said the Kineticist is the largest part of the book, not including spells, I thought the Medium was going to be?

That is good question, how much space will the book have for Archetypes? How many for each new class? Which ones and how many for all the other classes in the game?

How about a single archetype that lets you choose with mental stat you are based on? Though I still would love a cha based one that gets sorcerer bloodline powers.

I think the mini archetype thing is a good idea. The question is, should it be one archetype that lets you choose, or three archetypes that each use one stat? I would say the three mini ones because you can then give a little extra flavor enhancement to go with it. (I'm guessing there probably has to be at least two changes to the class for it to be an archetype, otherwise you might as well make it a wild talent instead and that misses a chance to...

Again, I would not describe Natsu as charismatic under any definition. He's never shown great leadership, or personal magnetism. He's cocky and arrogant and confident in his abilities. He's bull-headed and charges into every situation.

Lucy, is charismatic. She has repeatedly shown herself able to talk enemies into friends or find common ground with people. Erza is charismatic, she is intimidating and a capable leader. Jellal is charismatic, organizing the slaves of the tower into a revolt and leading them into greater powers. Loke, is charismatic; anyone who can get that many girls to be his girlfriend without fighting each other is a charisma God.

Natsu does not lead, he kicks in a door and forces a situation. It's not that he convinces people to follow any "plan" he has; he takes the choice out of their hands by attacking before they can stop him.


I would say it is sort of charisma. He drags people to his way of thinking kicking and screaming. He also is one of the main mages of fairytale, and people tend to inherently like him.

Another example (though not one that is a kinetisist per say): Luffy of One Piece. He has less of a brain or common sense than Natsu, but is almost instantly liked by almost everyone he meets and is the captain of his crew.

Even villins are like this. the charismatic evil adviser planing to overthrow the king is calm and collected and uses sweet words to get what he wants, but once his plans are unraveled by the hero, those types tend to explode with rage and the careful mask falls off .

Long story short, I tend to feel that CHA represents emotion in characters. In terms of the kinetisist, this means: "You killed little Timmy the orphan? EAT FIREBALL FUELED BY MY UNSTOPABLE RAGE!"

Of course I could be wrong on all this seeing how the barbarian doesn't use CHA. Then again, the core barbarian could also be a bit of a holdover from the 3.5 days.

I'm actually curious now. Mark, how do you developers tend to view the CHA stat when developing classes in terms of character concept?


My understanding is that Charisma represents your force of personality, the ability to sway people to your way of thinking. That's why Charisma is used in all of the social stats. Charismatic people are inherently better at persuading others.

Charisma also represents the amount of 'presence' you have in the universe. The more charisma, the more influence you can exert on the world around you. This is why Sorcerers, Bards and Oracles are able to cast spells. Their 'forceful personality' is so extreme, the can force the world to manifest magical effects to suit their desires.

Someone can still be likeable without having a high charisma. Charisma is one of the most subtle and yet complicated stats in the game. Because, while Charisma is often a measure of beauty, you can be beautiful while having crap Charisma.

This would be those people that are physically attractive, but their personalities are incredibly off putting and drive people away. Or something like, "He's so handsome when he sleeps, but once he wakes up, his personality turns him ugly."

At the same time, you can have a rather plain person, even ugly, who people are naturally drawn to. They have a presence about themselves that people just find likeable.

Charisma is, however, not a measure of emotion. Anyone can be emotional, not just those who are charismatic. The normally calm, cool and collected evil schemer villain could be driven into a rage. The stoic and unflinching hermit might be driven to tears. The perky and ever cheerful bar wench might fall into extreme depression.

Emotions have nothing to do with mental stats. Though I would hazard a guess that those with high charisma are better able to express their emotions, but that's more to do with charismatic people being able to express themselves as a whole, better than non-charismatic people.

So, basically, Charisma, in this game, is a measure of how able you are to assert yourself on others and on the world. I.e. the more charisma, the more able to influence others and influence the world.

=========================

By the way, if the party is sitting around discussing a plan of attack on enemies in the next room and my character walks up and kicks the door open, then charges. That's not being charismatic at all. Charismatic would be convincing people my plan is the best one. This is how Natsu tends to operate.


brightshadow360 wrote:
on a side note how is natsu and his lot WIZARDS? the series calls them wizards but I have never seen one of them crack open a book.

Because not all setting's definitions of wizard is the one D&D picked.

Quote:
As to the number, Mark has implied (though not confirmed) a monk, an undead, and a healer archetype. Whether they are "kinetisist flavored monk/healer" or "monk/healer flavored kinetisist" is even more debatable. Couldn't hurt to shoot ideas out though.

Also I'm pretty sure a blood bending one was directly mentioned as being compatible with the undead one.


Tels wrote:

My understanding is that Charisma represents your force of personality, the ability to sway people to your way of thinking. That's why Charisma is used in all of the social stats. Charismatic people are inherently better at persuading others.

Charisma also represents the amount of 'presence' you have in the universe. The more charisma, the more influence you can exert on the world around you. This is why Sorcerers, Bards and Oracles are able to cast spells. Their 'forceful personality' is so extreme, the can force the world to manifest magical effects to suit their desires.

agreed. it's more the "force of personality" thing I was associating with fairytale mages spell-casting than the persuasiveness part of CHA. (That being said, this IS Fairytale we are talking about. Kicking in doors, rushing blindly, and then fire punching all of your problems is apparently how charisma actually works in that particular neck of the multiverse.)

Probably time to drop the anime talk though before we completely derail the thread. Back to coming up with kinetisist goodies for the future!

Milo v3 wrote:
Also I'm pretty sure a blood bending one was directly mentioned as being compatible with the undead one.

now the question is, should it be a strictly undead vampire thing, or should it be a general option. personally I would prefer it not be restricted to undead. also, should it be considered a strictly evil thing or something a hero can do to a baddie?

Speaking of undead, we MUST come up with a way to make a kinetisist ghostbuster. How should a kinetisist who ain't afraid of no ghost use his handy dandy built in proton pack? I'm having trouble deciding if it should be an aether thing or an electricity thing (or a fused element Ability, though you would want this earlier than when composites typically come into play...unless a ghostbuster archetype came prepacked with those two elements)


I don't know about ghostbuster, but I've long been pondering an archetype, either for the Kineticist, or for the Monk for a Spirit Detective like in Yu Yu Hakusho. (and if one isn't in the book, I'm homebrewing it)

My initial thought is for the Monk, and give him a kinetic blast based off his Ki. He can fire a single Spirit Blast each day, and can fire additional shots by spending Ki to do so (meaning he can't get a second shot until 4th level; probably 2 ki per blast). The Spirit Blast would deal 1d4+con in sacred damage, but only scale by +1d4 every 3 levels beyond first (2d4 at 4th, 3d4 at 7th etc). (by the way, I keep using Con here as the Spirit Detective retains the burn mechanic)

I chose sacred damage as it's the 'closest' to some sort of spiritual energy, but that means I have to reduce damage to balance it out somewhat as sacred damage has no DR, nor energy resistance. Come 20th level, the Spirit Detective averages 17.5 points of damage per blast, but nothing resists it, while a Kineticist averages 35 per blast, but has methods of being reduced or ignored. This is not accounting for additional modifiers, of course.

The Spirit Detective would need to have a limited form of burn, and be capable of a small selection of wild talents to choose from, in addition to metakinesis to stay relevant.

Some wild talents that would be unique to the Spirit Detective
Spread-shot (Spirit Shotgun)
Nova-blast (empty all Ki into a remaining blast ala Spirit Wave)
Reflection (spend Ki equal to half-spell level to reflect a spell; Genkai)
Modified Kinetic Blade (blade can be used as long as enough ki for a blast is remaining; Kuwabara)

[Edit] Oh, also, the Menhir Savant Druid archetype's Spirit Sense ability.

Spirit Sense wrote:
At 1st level, a menhir savant can detect the presence of undead; fey; outsiders; and astral, ethereal, or incorporeal creatures. This ability functions like detect undead, and the druid detects all of these creatures rather than trying to detect one kind.


Tels wrote:

I don't know about ghostbuster, but I've long been pondering an archetype, either for the Kineticist, or for the Monk for a Spirit Detective like in Yu Yu Hakusho. (and if one isn't in the book, I'm homebrewing it)

My initial thought is for the Monk, and give him a kinetic blast based off his Ki. He can fire a single Spirit Blast each day, and can fire additional shots by spending Ki to do so (meaning he can't get a second shot until 4th level; probably 2 ki per blast). The Spirit Blast would deal 1d4+con in sacred damage, but only scale by +1d4 every 3 levels beyond first (2d4 at 4th, 3d4 at 7th etc). (by the way, I keep using Con here as the Spirit Detective retains the burn mechanic)

I chose sacred damage as it's the 'closest' to some sort of spiritual energy, but that means I have to reduce damage to balance it out somewhat as sacred damage has no DR, nor energy resistance. Come 20th level, the Spirit Detective averages 17.5 points of damage per blast, but nothing resists it, while a Kineticist averages 35 per blast, but has methods of being reduced or ignored. This is not accounting for additional modifiers, of course.

The Spirit Detective would need to have a limited form of burn, and be capable of a small selection of wild talents to choose from, in addition to metakinesis to stay relevant.

Some wild talents that would be unique to the Spirit Detective
Spread-shot (Spirit Shotgun)
Nova-blast (empty all Ki into a remaining blast ala Spirit Wave)
Reflection (spend Ki equal to half-spell level to reflect a spell; Genkai)
Modified Kinetic Blade (blade can be used as long as enough ki for a blast is remaining; Kuwabara)

[Edit] Oh, also, the Menhir Savant Druid archetype's Spirit Sense ability.

Spirit Sense wrote:
At 1st level, a menhir savant can detect the presence of undead; fey; outsiders; and astral, ethereal, or incorporeal creatures. This ability functions like detect undead, and the druid detects all of these creatures rather than trying to detect one kind.

I did not know that ability existed. ALL of my yes. In fact I would almost like that as a normal wild talent (probably won't happen though).

Don't know about the dmg level of the spirit blast. Might be too weak to be worth using a turn and resources on, even if it pierces defenses. maybe if you used Ki to convert a normal blast into a sacred one it might work. either that or add on the sacred damage as bonus damage to a blast. That way your getting full damage plus some and some of it is guaranteed to pierce defenses.

There is also a bit of a conundrum as to how ki and burn points will interact, though I'm guessing Mark has something figured out already.

Good idea for shotgun: shoot all iterative blasts or attacks you usually get for flurry of blows as a short range standard action with extra penalties (rather than having to take a full round attack). lousy aim, but you get a move action to unleash all your power.

either that or make it a cone, but I think this one is more interesting and unique.

I would say that the blade sould stay as is, but give it the ability to extend as is Kuwabaras thing. Make a weightless blade with a reach of 20 for both Ki and burn for a round anyone? also, it is automatically ghost touch (because duh).

Also came up with the semblance of a plan for a ghostbusters grapple. (actually, it's more of a luigis mansion type thing now but still). you shoot a whip like tendril of force that entangles ethereal and outsider creatures. you make a CMB check vs the creatures CMD. every turn it fails to break free, it gets a cumulative -2 to it's CMD. if the difference between your CMB roll and it's CMD passed a certain threshold (say a difference of 10) it is dragged by the beam into a small portal that you generate leading to the ethereal plane as though subject to a Banishment spell that auto succeeds.

Also, another kinetisist can join the grapple granting the creature additional penalties and twice the chance to get sucked in, but in the event that one of you roll a critical miss, you cross the streams and the universe explodes you suffer the effects of a fireball centered on the creature that deals your combined levels d6 dmg.

alternate mechanic: the ghost or outsider can move but can not act and can't move more than a certain distance from you beginning at a distance equal to it's CHA modifier. Every turn it fails to break free, the distance it can move away is lessened by one 5ft step (if you are right next to it and it doesn't use a move action to keep away, it gets sucked in automatically on your next turn so you can force it to use up actions as well). When that distance reaches 0 it's sucked into the portal.


Remember, DR and energy resistance is going to be a major issue for all kineticists at higher levels.

Something as simple as DR/good is, as it currently stands, impossible for a Kineticist to overcome. Once you hit 10th level, Resist fire 10, cold 10 and electricity 10 is pretty common, with many creatures being immune to an element or having resist 15 or even 20.

I mean, look at a Balor, CR 20 and and a Kineticist should be able to reasonably kill it on it's own. It has DR 15/cold iron and good, so physical Kineticists will have a tougher time hurting it, and touch AC kineticists have to deal with immune to fire, electricity and resist acid/cold 10.

So the most viable way to fight it is with a hydrokineticists using the ice blast.

The Spirit Detective wouldn't have to worry about that, where as other Kineticists do. Though, to be fair, I'm not certain that dropping the damage scaling to 1/3 levels is necessary. Simply dropping it to 1d4 would probably be fine.

The shotgun is simply an AoE cone blast. My thought would be minimum damage on his dice rolls, applied to everyone in the cone, with a reflex save for half.

The Spirit Wave would expend all of his Ki to fire a single blast; the more Ki spent, the more powerful the blast is, I was thinking that every Ki point spent in this way adds another damage die to the blast.

I would suspect that such a Monk archetype would involve a major re-write. At the very least, he'd lose a significant number of abilities. Almost an alternate class or a Hybrid.

It'd probably be easier to add Monk aspects to the Kineticist, than it would be to add Kineticist to the Monk.


brightshadow360 wrote:


now the question is, should it be a strictly undead vampire thing, or should it be a general option. personally I would prefer it not be restricted to undead. also, should it be considered a strictly evil thing or something a hero can do to a baddie?

Compatible archetypes, as in not one blood bending undead archetype but their being a blood bending archetype and an undead archetype.


Tels wrote:

Remember, DR and energy resistance is going to be a major issue for all kineticists at higher levels.

Something as simple as DR/good is, as it currently stands, impossible for a Kineticist to overcome. Once you hit 10th level, Resist fire 10, cold 10 and electricity 10 is pretty common, with many creatures being immune to an element or having resist 15 or even 20.

I mean, look at a Balor, CR 20 and and a Kineticist should be able to reasonably kill it on it's own. It has DR 15/cold iron and good, so physical Kineticists will have a tougher time hurting it, and touch AC kineticists have to deal with immune to fire, electricity and resist acid/cold 10.

So the most viable way to fight it is with a hydrokineticists using the ice blast.

The Spirit Detective wouldn't have to worry about that, where as other Kineticists do. Though, to be fair, I'm not certain that dropping the damage scaling to 1/3 levels is necessary. Simply dropping it to 1d4 would probably be fine.

The shotgun is simply an AoE cone blast. My thought would be minimum damage on his dice rolls, applied to everyone in the cone, with a reflex save for half.

The Spirit Wave would expend all of his Ki to fire a single blast; the more Ki spent, the more powerful the blast is, I was thinking that every Ki point spent in this way adds another damage die to the blast.

I would suspect that such a Monk archetype would involve a major re-write. At the very least, he'd lose a significant number of abilities. Almost an alternate class or a Hybrid.

It'd probably be easier to add Monk aspects to the Kineticist, than it would be to add Kineticist to the Monk.

That is all good for special encounters, but a spirit detective would have problems in normal encounters if the sacred shot is the focus. whats more, other classes have fixes for those kinds of encounters and probably do more damage. in fact, the damage might be a problem in general. Consider magic missile for example. force damage and always hits. However, at higher levels it becomes useless despite it's ability to pierce almost any defense.

I think the sacred blast should be more of an extra. spend a point of Ki to add #d4 to your blast as sacred damage. Alternatively, spend a point of Ki to make your blast not only have ghost touch, but do double damage to ethereal and outsiders (and maybe normal undead as well). that would make the spirit detective function normal at low levels and become a straight up demon hunter at high levels. no necromancer or demon contractor wants to encounter a spirit detective in a party.

The thing is, we have to watch how resource intensive the abilities are. that was the main problem with the base monk (1 ki for a one shot instead of a powerup for a minute). We don't want to repeat that mistake. If Ki is spent, it should be an extra special thing, or a long lasting thing. A single damage die increase/ki is too small. All things considered though, I doubt that the monk flavored kinetisist will have a separate Ki pool (though his burn should count as Ki).

Also, a spirit detective, to keep with the detective half of things, should have the ability to know when someone is being dominated, has a "necromancy" aura about them, and the ability to actually track ghosts "trail of ectoplasm". He should also be immune to possession and vampire domination (but not spell domination).

Designer

I'm super excited how you guys are figuring out how to mod kineticists for all sorts of genres and different anime. I'm looking forward to seeing lots of fruitful threads on the homebrew forum in that regard too!


Milo v3 wrote:
brightshadow360 wrote:


now the question is, should it be a strictly undead vampire thing, or should it be a general option. personally I would prefer it not be restricted to undead. also, should it be considered a strictly evil thing or something a hero can do to a baddie?
Compatible archetypes, as in not one blood bending undead archetype but their being a blood bending archetype and an undead archetype.

Almost think the bloodbending should be a wild talent. On the other hand, if it's an archetype you can go further with it. Not only can you use a *snort* "watered down" version of dominate (please don't smack me for that pun), but said dominate ability would be a FORT save. creatures normally immune or resistant to WILL domination would now become fair game.

Whats more, if the ability advances you can do things like create or accelerate bleed damage, if you're a vampire, feed from a distance, or even reverse someones bloodflow for a high level instant kill ability. also, they get foe throw and can move still warm corpses like a telekentisist.

obviously their one weakness would be undead and anything without blood like constructs and certain outsiders. This would make it a poor choice for some adventures but an excellent choice for a GM designed enemy in a horror (especially as a vampire). Just imagine: "you can't dominate my will you undead fiend! My will is too strong!" "If I can't have your mind mortal, THEN YOUR BODY WILL HAVE TO DO!"

alternitivly: "You want to eat me? you will have to defeat and capture me first bloodsucker!" "I don't need to catch you to have a meal. My! Is that a paper cut on your wrist that I see?"

also: "so much wasted blood on the ground. I think I shall bend the blood out of the dirt into my mouth to heal myself!"

-----------------
also new idea for the GEO: earth armor. you basically are treated as though piloting a construct. Only mind effect magic can touch you. who knows : Geo -> rock suit -> metal bending ->second element (telekenisis) -> super fighting robot megaman?

heh. His backstory can be that he is a housekeeper names rock who kenisises dirt out of houses, but has to convert to a fighter. metalbending + another element to make all of the robot masters!


brightshadow360 wrote:
Tels wrote:

Remember, DR and energy resistance is going to be a major issue for all kineticists at higher levels.

Something as simple as DR/good is, as it currently stands, impossible for a Kineticist to overcome. Once you hit 10th level, Resist fire 10, cold 10 and electricity 10 is pretty common, with many creatures being immune to an element or having resist 15 or even 20.

I mean, look at a Balor, CR 20 and and a Kineticist should be able to reasonably kill it on it's own. It has DR 15/cold iron and good, so physical Kineticists will have a tougher time hurting it, and touch AC kineticists have to deal with immune to fire, electricity and resist acid/cold 10.

So the most viable way to fight it is with a hydrokineticists using the ice blast.

The Spirit Detective wouldn't have to worry about that, where as other Kineticists do. Though, to be fair, I'm not certain that dropping the damage scaling to 1/3 levels is necessary. Simply dropping it to 1d4 would probably be fine.

The shotgun is simply an AoE cone blast. My thought would be minimum damage on his dice rolls, applied to everyone in the cone, with a reflex save for half.

The Spirit Wave would expend all of his Ki to fire a single blast; the more Ki spent, the more powerful the blast is, I was thinking that every Ki point spent in this way adds another damage die to the blast.

I would suspect that such a Monk archetype would involve a major re-write. At the very least, he'd lose a significant number of abilities. Almost an alternate class or a Hybrid.

It'd probably be easier to add Monk aspects to the Kineticist, than it would be to add Kineticist to the Monk.

That is all good for special encounters, but a spirit detective would have problems in normal encounters if the sacred shot is the focus. whats more, other classes have fixes for those kinds of encounters and probably do more damage. in fact, the damage might be a problem in general. Consider magic missile for example. force damage and always hits. However, at...

Most of this post is me typing as thoughts pop into my head. So if it seems random or jumbled, I apologize.

Remember, I haven't really written anything down at this point up until this thread. It's all just been ideas floating around in my head.

Simply reducing the damage die of the blast, without speed of scaling on the dice, might be sufficient. 10d4 averages out to 25 points of damage compared to the 35 of the normal blast. In addition, the Spirit Detective Monk won't be capable of all of the shenanigans that a true Kineticist is. For example, Empowered, Maximized Composite Blasts are still a thing for the Kineticist, but not so much the Spirit Detective.

As a Monk, the Spirit Detective will also not have as high stats as the Kineticist. The Monk still needs Str/Dex, Dex and Wis to function, unless he's a finesse Monk and uses Dex/Wis, then you have to toss on Con for blasts (but Con is also necessary for the normal Monk).

The Monk retains MADness, but he gets more out of Con than simply HP and Fort saves. Now he gets a ranged blast too.

Giving the Spirit Detective a simple Burn limit of Con Modifier, instead of Con+3 also limits what he can do with wild talents and Metakinesis.

The Spirit Wave is also kid of 'in Alpha' state, but, remember, the Spirit Wave idea is expending all remaining Ki into a single blast. A 20th level Monk has, at bare minimum, 10 points of Ki (1/2 level + Wisdom mod), so this means a single blast of 20d4+Con is possible, then you Empower and Maximize it for 80+10d4+Con for an average of 105+Con in a single shot.

It's not exactly super efficient, no, but it's a very powerful blast. I also don't want to make it an efficient form of blasting, as then people would be pre-disposed to using it all the time. I mean, you take a Monk with something like... or 26 Wisdom, and now he's got a Ki Pool of 18 points. Now he can fire a blast of 28d4, or Empowered and Maximized to 112+14d4+Con or 147+Con in damage.

Let's not forget the possible shenanigans a smart party can get up to as well. Like a melee Spirit Wave instead of a ranged one. This lets a party with Butterfly Sting transfer the crit over to the Spirit Wave and hit for nearly over 300 points of damage in a single blow (factoring in a Constitution mod of at least +4).

However, Spirit Wave needs to be a viable attack, as you are, essentially, pooling all of your Ki into a single blast, robbing you of future blasts and even rendering your unarmed strikes non-magical.

I'm trying to, mostly, make a single archetype for both Yusuke and Kuwabara.

Yusuke's key features are:
Ability to sense the presence of spiritual entities (he can see Demons and those possessed by Demons from very early on, though is not as precognitive as Kuwabara)
Ability to fire a Spirit Gun a limited number of times per day
Ability to modify his Spirit Gun into a shotgun
Ability to pool all of his energy into a Spirit Wave for extreme damage, but rendering him nearly defenseless
A kick-ass martial artist.

Kuwabara's key features are:
Spirit Sword
Ability to sense spiritual entities (even better than Yusuke can)

Lesser features of Kuwabara:
Sword's ability to cut through dimensional barriers
Ability to alter the shape of his sword to make it longer or change it into something like a tennis racquet
Ability to wield two spirit swords

I have not yet finished all of Yu Yu Hakusho, I highly enjoyed it as a child and have recently acquired the full series and have watched up to the end of the Sensui arc and the beginning of the Demon Tournament in Demon World (not the tournament he fights Toguro in). So, if there are any other powers Yusuke or Kuwabara picks up (not including Yusuke's transformation), then I don't know what they are. But I don't consider any ability that Yusuke or Kuwabara picks up after 2/3 of the series has gone by would be considered 'key features' of the characters.

I mean, one wouldn't say that the ability to turn into Super Saiyan 4 is a key feature of building a Goku inspired character. But the Kamehameha, flight, Super Saiyan transformation, incredible strength and speed are all defining traits of Goku and ones he carries through most of the series.

So when I try and narrow down exactly what I want my Spirit Detective archetype to encompass, this is what I see as necessary:

Spirit Gun (kinetic blast)
Shotgun (AoE Cone that deals less damage than Spirit Gun)
Spirit Wave (Ranged or melee blast that deals tremendous damage, sapping user of all strength)
Spirit Sword (kinetic blade)
Ability to sense undead, demons and ghosts (Menhir Savant Spirit Sense)

-Possibly swapping Wholeness of Body for Kinetic Healing (Spirit Wave is supposed to be primarily a healing technique, but also an offensive one in a pinch)
-Possibly Spirit Reflection Wave (spend Ki to reflect a targeted spell or spell-like ability, swapping out spell resistance)

I think... it's possible for me to do the above by turning Spirit Wave into a higher level ability, and then using Shotgun, Spirit and Spirit Sword as wild talents. Spirit Gun would be a drastic change on the whole Ki pool system, with the Spirit Detective losing many of the Ki Powers entirely. I would like to keep Flurry of Blows, however, as Yusuke's blinding speed with his attacks is well known, but it's not absolutely necessary.


Mark, is it possible to let me know whether or not I should keep theorizing about a Spirit Detective archetype inspired by Yu Yu Hakusho, or has one already been ordered for the book?

Designer

Tels wrote:
Mark, is it possible to let me know whether or not I should keep theorizing about a Spirit Detective archetype inspired by Yu Yu Hakusho, or has one already been ordered for the book?

Some sort of spirit detective of one sort or another seems likely in the book, but Yu Yu Hakusho inspired and kineticist archetype in particular? That's probably pretty unlikely for Occult Adventures. I think that not only is making your own mods/archetype for a particular anime a super cool idea for a thread in the Homebrew forum, though, but also, I could totally see a series of 3pp products with kineticist mods each meant to help realize a different anime series.


Mark Seifter wrote:
I could totally see a series of 3pp products with kineticist mods each meant to help realize a different anime series.

I for one, cannot wait till DSP get their hands on the kineticist and start making stuff like akashic archetypes for it and aegis archetypes that create giant elemental bodies around themselves.


So, I enjoy the Simple Class Templates that debuted in the Game Monster Codex and I really love the idea of monstrous kineticists. So I wrote up a homebrewed Kineticist simple template.

Kineticist Simple Class Template wrote:

CR +1 if less than 5 HD, CR +2 if 5 HD, CR +3 if 10 HD or more.

Quick Build Rules

+2 on all Dex and Con based checks. +2 HP per hit die. Gains a normal AC blast of aether, air, earth or water that deals 1d6 per 2 HD plus constitution modifier, or touch AC blast of air, fire, or water that deals 1d6 per 2 HD plus half Con modifier. Can accept burn up to Con Mod and may spend a Move action to reduce Burn by 1. The creature can Empower blasts for 1 Burn if 5 HD or more. If 10 or more hit die, choose 2 wild talents using their HD -2 as Kineticist levels; wild talents must be appropriate to the form. Creatures gain the kinetic defense of the element of their blast.

Rebuild Rules

Choose a blast targeting normal AC or touch AC. Normal AC deals 1d6 per 2 hit die plus the monsters constitution modifier on a hit; touch AC deald 1d6 per two hit die plus half the monsters constitution modifier on a hit. Aether, air earth and water can target normal AC; air, fire and water can target touch AC.

The creature can accept up to their constitution modifier in burn to use Wild Talents. They can accept 1 wild talent at 5 HD, a second wild talent at 10 HD and a third wild talent at 15 HD. These wild talents must be appropriate to the form (example, a giant tortoise can't use kinetic blade).

The creature can spend a move action to reduce the burn of their kinetic blast by 1, and can accept 1 burn to empower their kinetic blast if 5 HD or more. The creature also gains the kinetic defense of their elemental blast. Ability Modifiers: Dex +4, Con +4.

Thoughts?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Tels wrote:
Mark, is it possible to let me know whether or not I should keep theorizing about a Spirit Detective archetype inspired by Yu Yu Hakusho, or has one already been ordered for the book?
Some sort of spirit detective of one sort or another seems likely in the book, but Yu Yu Hakusho inspired and kineticist archetype in particular? That's probably pretty unlikely for Occult Adventures. I think that not only is making your own mods/archetype for a particular anime a super cool idea for a thread in the Homebrew forum, though, but also, I could totally see a series of 3pp products with kineticist mods each meant to help realize a different anime series.

in that case, (unless these ideas could be plans for future paizo books [My GMs don't allow 3rd party :( ]) maybe it is better for us to focus on wild talents rather than full archetypes with regards to a spirit detective/ghostbuster type thing.

I forgot about kuwabaras dimension slice. Maybe a talent to allow a kinetic blade to slice through ward type spells? (I think kinetic whip takes care of kuwabaras extension ability if it's tweaked to allow you to burn to increase the range.

spirit gun as a wild talent might be a positive energy type ability (if we get a positive energy element thing, then take it as your first and aether as your second. Maybe spirit wave as a composite blast?

Alternatively, have a feat that turns force into sacred (or profain) damage (sacred is only slightly better than force really. Feat tax is enough to compensate for such an upgrade). either that or give it ghost touch for the day by burning. (the ghost touch thing dosn't extend to demons though. I would prefer something that can be used for demon hunting)

a "sense element" thing could have aether users senses detect etherial creatures at least (I doubt we could get demon and general undead detection this way though.)

The ghostbuster grapple/baneshment thing I mentioned could be a composite for electric and aether. would still prefer it as a lvl 1 thing so people can make true ghostbusters, but if we must wait until lvl 5 or so, so be it.

for the shotgun, we will probably get a cone universal wild talent that takes care of that. However, I still think the flurry one shot I mentioned before would be cool for a monk archetype

For spirit wave, we already will have nova options though they aren't Ki based at the moment though. Don't know how Ki actually factors in (though for an archetype Ki and burn should be interchangeable in some way or another at least flavor-wise if not mechanically.


brightshadow360 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Tels wrote:
Mark, is it possible to let me know whether or not I should keep theorizing about a Spirit Detective archetype inspired by Yu Yu Hakusho, or has one already been ordered for the book?
Some sort of spirit detective of one sort or another seems likely in the book, but Yu Yu Hakusho inspired and kineticist archetype in particular? That's probably pretty unlikely for Occult Adventures. I think that not only is making your own mods/archetype for a particular anime a super cool idea for a thread in the Homebrew forum, though, but also, I could totally see a series of 3pp products with kineticist mods each meant to help realize a different anime series.

in that case, (unless these ideas could be plans for future paizo books [My GMs don't allow 3rd party :( ]) maybe it is better for us to focus on wild talents rather than full archetypes with regards to a spirit detective/ghostbuster type thing.

I forgot about kuwabaras dimension slice. Maybe a talent to allow a kinetic blade to slice through ward type spells? (I think kinetic whip takes care of kuwabaras extension ability if it's tweaked to allow you to burn to increase the range.

spirit gun as a wild talent might be a positive energy type ability (if we get a positive energy element thing, then take it as your first and aether as your second. Maybe spirit wave as a composite blast?

Alternatively, have a feat that turns force into sacred (or profain) damage (sacred is only slightly better than force really. Feat tax is enough to compensate for such an upgrade). either that or give it ghost touch for the day by burning. (the ghost touch thing dosn't extend to demons though. I would prefer something that can be used for demon hunting)

a "sense element" thing could have aether users senses detect etherial creatures at least (I doubt we could get demon and general undead detection this way though.)

The ghostbuster grapple/baneshment thing I mentioned could be a composite for electric and...

The way I see it, is Ki is used to power the Spirit Gun, but they can use Burn to add on Empower, Maximize and Wild Talents.

So if you want to use say... the Snaking Talent, you would accept Burn, but have to spend Ki to fire your Spirit Gun.

The exception is the Spirit Sword, which would function as long as you have enough Ki to fire a Spirit Gun. So as long as you have 2 ki points remaining, you can form a Spirit Sword. I was thinking of tweaking the Spirit Sword to deal half the damage of the Spirit Gun, however, to prevent the whole 'melee is clearly better' option. Similar to the Kinetici Fist. The Spirit Sword would also be treated as a 'monk' weapon for the purpose of flurry of blows.

Hmm... thought, possibly allow the Spirit Monk to fire a Spirit Gun if he accepts 2 burn per shot as well? Would reflect the whole 'reaching deep into untapped reserves' thing that is common in anime.


Not sure if I mentioned it by this point... but I love the Kineticist. I'm fairly certain I've kept my love for this class well hidden at this point, so this might come as a shock to many of you.

Thanks for the Kineticist, Mark!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Tels wrote:

Thanks for the Kineticist, Mark!

+1


I'm hoping there were some changes to Kinetic Fist to make it a more useable ability. Was thinking of rolling up a troll pyrokinetic using my above simple class template. As a 6 HD creature, he would get 1 wild talent to use, and I was looking at Kinetic Fist. With a 3d6 blast, he gets 1d6 on his natural attacks, and, because of how it's written, he wouldn't get another 1d6 until he had a 6d6 blast. Meaning he'd need to be 6 HD.

This carries over to PC kineticists as well. As written, they don't get another damage bump until 11th level because of the 1d6 per 3d6 blast rule. That's... pretty bad. It basically means that the Kinetic Fist ability is no better than a flaming amulet of mighty fist until 11th level.

Would it be better if Kinetic Fist gave half damage dice progression on unarmed strikes/natural attacks?

The PC can avoid this by simply taking Kinetic Blade instead (the vastly superior option), but, well, most monsters aren't proficient in weapons, though the troll is proficient with simple weapons.


Tels wrote:

I'm hoping there were some changes to Kinetic Fist to make it a more useable ability. Was thinking of rolling up a troll pyrokinetic using my above simple class template. As a 6 HD creature, he would get 1 wild talent to use, and I was looking at Kinetic Fist. With a 3d6 blast, he gets 1d6 on his natural attacks, and, because of how it's written, he wouldn't get another 1d6 until he had a 6d6 blast. Meaning he'd need to be 6 HD.

This carries over to PC kineticists as well. As written, they don't get another damage bump until 11th level because of the 1d6 per 3d6 blast rule. That's... pretty bad. It basically means that the Kinetic Fist ability is no better than a flaming amulet of mighty fist until 11th level.

Would it be better if Kinetic Fist gave half damage dice progression on unarmed strikes/natural attacks?

The PC can avoid this by simply taking Kinetic Blade instead (the vastly superior option), but, well, most monsters aren't proficient in weapons, though the troll is proficient with simple weapons.

Kinetic blade can be stuff like gauntlets too as it is currently set up. On one hand, kinetic fist is a bonus to your normal damage and kinetic blade replaces your damage. Almost should be an "any weapon" option rather than just for unarmed strikes (also, does kinetic fist provide improved unarmed strike? Needs some clarification here.)

Maybe the two abilities need to go away and be replaced by a single more versatile ability. The ability should involve both the creation of weapons AND the enhancment of weapons. You could have the option of "kinetic bracers" to enhance your attacks OR you can use the +3 short sword you just found adventuring.

The weapon created shouldn't be a specific shape. It should be either a coating on your natural/unarmed strike or a flare out of energy that you slash people with from any part of your body that deals ???? amount of your blast damage

in other words, this: http://i.imgur.com/8bTXUBv.jpg

or this: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/ultra/images/4/48/Tiga_hand_slash.jpg/r evision/latest?cb=20130812075317

NOT this: http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/029/7/d/mmd_energy_sword__halo_2 _dl_by_btabc-d5t6d57.jpg

This isn't to say another wild talent couldn't give it a specific shape once you are leveled up and have more control of your power. If so, it would gain all of the properties and base damage of the weapon emulated in addition to the percent of your blast damage it normally deals.


Whos_That wrote:
Tels wrote:

Thanks for the Kineticist, Mark!

+1

More like "You are a genius and have created the only class I will ever play, Mark!" seriously, you have no idea how long I have waited for this class.

anyway, separate post for separate topic. how should our bloodbender actually work? Should it be simply controlling the water in the blood, or should he actually have a link to an offshoot of the plane of water: the elemental plane of BLOOOOOOOOOD!

Think about it: All the abilities of water except badass red: red ice. red mist clouds. red steam.

In addition, any blood summoned from the plane would NOT provide healing and combat bonuses to a vampire, but CAN be used to stave off a vampires thirst. Gives an option for heroic bloodbenders while still giving villainous vampires an incentive to drink people.


final separate topic: energy slashes.

I'm talking slashes a-la:
omnislash (final fantasy)
wind scar (inuyasha)
getsuga tenshou (Bleach)

Maybe a wild talent to give an energy blast slashing damage?


brightshadow360 wrote:
Tels wrote:

I'm hoping there were some changes to Kinetic Fist to make it a more useable ability. Was thinking of rolling up a troll pyrokinetic using my above simple class template. As a 6 HD creature, he would get 1 wild talent to use, and I was looking at Kinetic Fist. With a 3d6 blast, he gets 1d6 on his natural attacks, and, because of how it's written, he wouldn't get another 1d6 until he had a 6d6 blast. Meaning he'd need to be 6 HD.

This carries over to PC kineticists as well. As written, they don't get another damage bump until 11th level because of the 1d6 per 3d6 blast rule. That's... pretty bad. It basically means that the Kinetic Fist ability is no better than a flaming amulet of mighty fist until 11th level.

Would it be better if Kinetic Fist gave half damage dice progression on unarmed strikes/natural attacks?

The PC can avoid this by simply taking Kinetic Blade instead (the vastly superior option), but, well, most monsters aren't proficient in weapons, though the troll is proficient with simple weapons.

Kinetic blade can be stuff like gauntlets too as it is currently set up. On one hand, kinetic fist is a bonus to your normal damage and kinetic blade replaces your damage. Almost should be an "any weapon" option rather than just for unarmed strikes (also, does kinetic fist provide improved unarmed strike? Needs some clarification here.)

Maybe the two abilities need to go away and be replaced by a single more versatile ability. The ability should involve both the creation of weapons AND the enhancment of weapons. You could have the option of "kinetic bracers" to enhance your attacks OR you can use the +3 short sword you just found adventuring.

The weapon created shouldn't be a specific shape. It should be either a coating on your natural/unarmed strike or a flare out of energy that you slash people with from any part of your body that deals ???? amount of your blast damage

in other words, this: http://i.imgur.com/8bTXUBv.jpg

or this:...

The problem is, Kinetic Blade still gets all the nifty damage boosters other melee attacks do. So things like Power Attack, Inspire Courge, Prayer etc. all add to damage. You also just straight up use the blast damage for the melee attack. You cap out at 10d6+con blast damage, so you end up with 10d6+Con melee attacks, of which you tack on Power Attack and other damage increases and you're seriously rocking on the damage part.

Meanwhile, Kinetic Fist caps out at +6d6 damage, no bonuses. So, sure, you get your normal bonuses on the fist/natural attack and the 6d6, but you're often better off using Kinetic Blade instead of Fist because it simply gives more bang for your buck.

Also, you can empower/maximize/composte your Kinetic Blade, which gives more damage than it does for Kinetic Fist. Empowering Kinetic Blade gives you 15d6, empowering Kinetic Fist gives you 9d6.

It's just, if you have the option to take Kinetic Blade, you are almost always better off doing so.


Tels wrote:

The problem is, Kinetic Blade still gets all the nifty damage boosters other melee attacks do. So things like Power Attack, Inspire Courge, Prayer etc. all add to damage. You also just straight up use the blast damage for the melee attack. You cap out at 10d6+con blast damage, so you end up with 10d6+Con melee attacks, of which you tack on Power Attack and other damage increases and you're seriously rocking on the damage part.

Meanwhile, Kinetic Fist caps out at +6d6 damage, no bonuses. So, sure, you get your normal bonuses on the fist/natural attack and the 6d6, but you're often better off using Kinetic Blade instead of Fist because it simply gives more bang for your buck.

Also, you can empower/maximize/composte your Kinetic Blade, which gives more damage than it does for Kinetic Fist. Empowering Kinetic Blade gives you 15d6, empowering Kinetic Fist gives you 9d6.

It's just, if you have the option to take Kinetic Blade, you are almost always better off doing so.

I don't think power attack and other such things work with kinetic blade actually. Only stuff that affects blasts, and even then, not stuff like empower (more things that need clarification). Meanwhile, kinetic fist gets less damage but can be enhanced by weapon damage and other enhancements.

Even with enhancement though, fist falls behind. I did a bit of math and decreasing blade to 1d6/2 blast dice makes melee not worth it, even with itteratives on melee (difference gets worse if blasts get itteratives) as such, fist needs to be much stronger. If fist can be enhanced, then 1d6 per blast level might do it. especially if it gets flurry or two weapon.

personally, I think any kind of melee for a kenetisist IS unarmed. it should be a part of the class (with the note that he is only armed when his attacks are covered in energy). even a kinetic blade is a weightless weapon. your basically smacking people with energy from a foot away rather than an inch.

if the point of kinetic fist is for there to be a physical aspect to the attack (such that a fire punch isn't just a touch of fire, but an actual punch) then that should be EXTRA.

How about this: keep kinetic blade as is (with clarification tweaks of course such as the tele having to hold a thing. that has to go), but replace kinetic fist with "Kinetic Strike" strike would allow you to channel your blast through a weapon (including natural and unarmed strikes) to get both the blast damage and weapon damage. With this, you don't have to pick between your kinetic blade and the legendary artifact sword you find on your adventure.


BTW Mark, we are talking about kinetic blade and such, but are we too late for that? I know the stat thing is done with, but what should we be focusing on in this thread now? What parts are still changeable or can be added to and what parts are past the point of no return? Should we keep discussing the class as is or should we stick to new ideas that can be added in either in this book or the future?


brightshadow360 wrote:
Tels wrote:

The problem is, Kinetic Blade still gets all the nifty damage boosters other melee attacks do. So things like Power Attack, Inspire Courge, Prayer etc. all add to damage. You also just straight up use the blast damage for the melee attack. You cap out at 10d6+con blast damage, so you end up with 10d6+Con melee attacks, of which you tack on Power Attack and other damage increases and you're seriously rocking on the damage part.

Meanwhile, Kinetic Fist caps out at +6d6 damage, no bonuses. So, sure, you get your normal bonuses on the fist/natural attack and the 6d6, but you're often better off using Kinetic Blade instead of Fist because it simply gives more bang for your buck.

Also, you can empower/maximize/composte your Kinetic Blade, which gives more damage than it does for Kinetic Fist. Empowering Kinetic Blade gives you 15d6, empowering Kinetic Fist gives you 9d6.

It's just, if you have the option to take Kinetic Blade, you are almost always better off doing so.

I don't think power attack and other such things work with kinetic blade actually. Only stuff that affects blasts. Meanwhile, kinetic fist gets less damage but can be enhanced by weapon damage and other enhancements.

Even with enhancement though, fist falls behind. I did a bit of math and decreasing blade to 1d6/2 blast dice makes melee not worth it, even with itteratives on melee (difference gets worse if blasts get itteratives) as such, fist needs to be much stronger. If fist can be enhanced, then 1d6 per blast level might do it. especially if it gets flurry or two weapon.

personally, I think any kind of melee for a kenetisist IS unarmed. it should be a part of the class (with the note that he is only armed when his attacks are covered in energy). even a kinetic blade is a weightless weapon. your basically smacking people with energy from a foot away rather than an inch.

if the point of kinetic fist is for there to be a physical aspect to the attack (such that a fire punch isn't just a touch of...

No, Kinetic Blade functions as a weapon, so if you have abilities or buffs that affect weapons, they affect Kinetic Blade. Mark did say the new Kinetic Blade he sent out won't be compatible with Vital Strike, so it's possible feats like Power Attack won't work either.

Discussing changes to the core Kineticist, I think, is kind of moot at this point. Mark said the Kineticist has been sent to the editors, so barring some fundamental change that needs to be made, I think everything related to the vanilla Kineticist is set in stone.

I was just curious as to whether or not Kinetic Fist got any changes.

Discussing ideas for archetypes is probably the safest bet. Especially idea for future products. Honestly, bright, you're kind of in this place of having fallen in love with the Kineticist, but at a point where it's too late to really change anything.

Designer

Tels wrote:
Discussing ideas for archetypes is probably the safest bet. Especially idea for future products. Honestly, bright, you're kind of in this place of having fallen in love with the Kineticist, but at a point where it's too late to really change anything.

Tels has the right of it. This thread has been "officially" over for months now. I happen to enjoy checking up on it, and I have in fact used some of the posts that happened after the official end date, even, but at this point, I highly doubt that anything that appears here is going to change the way the basic class works.


tis a sad thing. My group basically disbanded due to drama and has been for a year, so I stopped checking on pathfinder stuff...only to find out that I missed the playtest for the ONE class I have been waiting YEARS for. (up to this point, my best bet was to multiclass monk and magus.

anywho, I shall continue to contribute in what little ways I can.

so. we have probed ghost hunters, alternative stats, and other such goodies. now we need to look at the good old kinetic swordsman. energy slashes and the like: how should they work?

Merely adding slashing damage to a blast doesn't seem to ...cut it (heh) for the price of a wild talent. Maybe if it becomes a wide piercing thing...
----------------------------

Kinetic slash (prerequisite: kinetic blade, aether) (composite): "As a full round action, you use your kinetic blade to unleash a kinetic blast in the form of a slash. your blast gains the slashing quality and affects all creatures up to your blast range in a straight line rather than the first creature it hits.

You can spend burn to increase the width of the slash such that it effects two lines instead. Increasing by an additional line for each point of burn spent. The blasts power decreases by one die every time it hits a creature in the line. Against creatures that are larger than a single line, the damage form this attack is treated as though hitting them once for each line of width of the slash (dealing damage multiple times and decreasing in strength as though hitting multiple creatures)

This form infusion can only be used with aether blasts and composite blasts that use aether functions with energy type blasts.

--------------------
It can basically be used by aether and other elements can composite aether to carry the element in slash form. It only works with energy blasts, so it doesn't do too much damage (especially in aether's case [who gets it much easier) assuming we get a d4 based force blast). In short, it's a good mook mop up ability. It's also a good nova option against big enemies.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Tels has the right of it. This thread has been "officially" over for months now. I happen to enjoy checking up on it, and I have in fact used some of the posts that happened after the official end date, even, but at this point, I highly doubt that anything that appears here is going to change the way the basic class works.

Now just comes the long wait for the book to come out. This feels like the APG all over again for me.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Mark. when will we get the 'names' of all the archetypes like in the advanced class guide?


New talent idea for a darkness kinetisist: keeping with the theme of darkness drawing things in (taking inspiration from the dark dark fruit from one piece):

dark funnel (substance, 1 burn): a dark kinetisist can cause attacks to veer towards him. He can spend burn as a swift or immediate action to redirect any projectile within twice the range of his dark sphere towards him instead of it's intended target. the orbs miss chance is negated and the attack receives a +2 bonus to hit you when this ability is used.

In addition, he can cause all melee attacks within that area to veer towards him. attacks not directed towards him take a -2 penalty to hit. melee Attacks directed towards him however receive a +2. When he uses this ability, he can dismiss it as a free action, but must wait 1d4 turns before being able to do so (He may elect to let the ability last the full round instead) This ability affects friend and foe alike. you may spend additional burn to increase the bonuses and penalties by an extra +2 per point.
------
dark karma: (prerequisite: dark funnel, dark shroud) you can inflict the effects of dark funnel on an enemy using your dark shroud. when used this way, the effect lasts 1d4 turns. you can extend the duration by another d4/point of additional burn and can also increase the power in the same way as dark funnel (these enhancements to the effect are separate.

--------
gravity blade: you can, as part of an attack action, treat a melee weapon as one size category larger as you swing it down.

--------
shadow-stuff: You can increase the caster level of an visual illusion spell by 1/2 your CON mod. the spell need not be your own

------------
small note: change "reverse gravity" in the dark kinetisist to "Graity sphere.

--------------------------------

naturally, we are going to need a light kinetisist as well who does the opposite of the dark. he should be opposite and similar, yet still different in his own right.

light sphere defense talent: You can surround yourself in a sphere of light that repeals attacks. the sphere covers a 10ft radius around you. projectiles gain a 20% miss chance against you from attacks outside of the sphere. In addition, when creatures enter your sphere, they are dazzled for 1d4 rounds. creatures with sensitivity to light are blinded for 1d4 rounds and dazzled for an additional 1d4 rounds after. creatures that leave the sphere receive a -2 circumstance penalty to hit that goes away each round they are out of the sphere as their eyes readjust. You can increase the radius of the sphere by 5 ft for each point of burn spent. (you can reduce the size at will)

----
light pulse: Your light sphere gains an antigravity field that lightly pushes away attacks. You gain a +2 deflection bonus to AC that stacks with all other deflection bonuses. You can increase this bonus for the day by 1 for each point of burn spent.
----

light field: you create an immovable 10ft circle of light that makes creatures light on their feet. All creatures in the field treat weight as one step lighter (including weapons. weight carried is halfed) and terrain as one step less difficult. In addition, all creatures gain a +5 to acrobatics and climb checks and a +2 dodge bonus to AC (this ability affects friend and foe alike).

-----
light ward: (this ability is like dark void but in reverse) prerequisite: light field. You create a miniature white hole in a light field (the normal effects of light field do not function). The antigravity from it affects all creatures in a 25ft radius. moving towards the hole is treated as though moving through difficult terrain. normal abilities that allow one to ignore difficult terrain do not function against this including flying. Every turn, all creatures in the area of effect automatically move 5 ft away from the center of the circle unless they spend a move action to brace themselves (this moment occurs at the beginning of your turn). This forced moment provokes attacks of opportunity.
------

antigravity sphere: you create a powerful miniture white hole and shoot it onto the ground within your blast range. The hole occupies a 5ft square and affects an additional 10ft radius sphere around (total 15 ft of effect). It and lasts a number of rounds equal to your CON mod. Any creature in the radius area is subject is immediately bullrushed away from the sphere. If a creature is directly under the sphere, it is immediately subject to the effects of a reverse gravity spell. If a creature hits a solid surface due to the spheres effect, it takes falling damage equal to how far it moved. such a creature is considered pinned until it succeeds on a STR check vs the spheres DC and takes a move action to exit the area of effect. You can spend a point of burn to increase the sphere's radius and the area of effect radius by 5 ft/point of burn.

-----
brighteyes: You are immune to being dazzled or blinded by light. You can make any part of your body glow in the dark as though subject to a light spell.

---------
Light of truth: You gain immunity to visual illusions and spell resistance to spells with the light descriptor.

-----------
light steps: you are immune to the effects of light ward and abilities with the darkness descriptor that hinder movement (but not ones that force movement). You can spend a point of burn to treat yourself as though under the effects of light field for the day. If you do, when in a light field, the effect is doubled. You treat light wards as though they were normal light fields.

---------
light speed: your base movement is doubled. you can spend points of burn to multiply it by another step for the day for each point spent.

-----------
Inner light: You can grant creatures that enter your light sphere your brighteyes ability. You can also touch creatures as a swift action to grant them your "light of truth" immunity to illusions while you are touching them.

-------------
Darkness brightens light (SU, 1 burn): You recognize that darkness and light are related and that darkness can make light seem brighter. if you burn for this ability, while in low light, you can treat all of your light wild talents as though you spent a point of burn to enhance them (this does not pay for the cost to cast, only to enhance). wile in darkness you treat your talents as though you spent 2 burn to enhance. in magical darkness, you treat your abilities as though you spent 3. sources of light originating from you do not count as increasing the light level for the purposes of this ability (the light level still changes, but this ability treats the area as though your light was not there). other sources of light effect this ability as normal.
--------

Energizing light: While in normal light, you do not suffer penalties for being fatigued. If you are exhausted you suffer fatigue penalties instead. In bright light, you are completely immune to fatigue and exhaustion effects (though you can still suffer natural fatigue and exhaustion). you suffer no penalties to sleep in bright light and only need half the usual amount of sleep when doing so.


Tels wrote:

So, I enjoy the Simple Class Templates that debuted in the Game Monster Codex and I really love the idea of monstrous kineticists. So I wrote up a homebrewed Kineticist simple template.

Kineticist Simple Class Template wrote:

CR +1 if less than 5 HD, CR +2 if 5 HD, CR +3 if 10 HD or more.

Quick Build Rules

+2 on all Dex and Con based checks. +2 HP per hit die. Gains a normal AC blast of aether, air, earth or water that deals 1d6 per 2 HD plus constitution modifier, or touch AC blast of air, fire, or water that deals 1d6 per 2 HD plus half Con modifier. Can accept burn up to Con Mod and may spend a Move action to reduce Burn by 1. The creature can Empower blasts for 1 Burn if 5 HD or more. If 10 or more hit die, choose 2 wild talents using their HD -2 as Kineticist levels; wild talents must be appropriate to the form. Creatures gain the kinetic defense of the element of their blast.

Rebuild Rules

Choose a blast targeting normal AC or touch AC. Normal AC deals 1d6 per 2 hit die plus the monsters constitution modifier on a hit; touch AC deald 1d6 per two hit die plus half the monsters constitution modifier on a hit. Aether, air earth and water can target normal AC; air, fire and water can target touch AC.

The creature can accept up to their constitution modifier in burn to use Wild Talents. They can accept 1 wild talent at 5 HD, a second wild talent at 10 HD and a third wild talent at 15 HD. These wild talents must be appropriate to the form (example, a giant tortoise can't use kinetic blade).

The creature can spend a move action to reduce the burn of their kinetic blast by 1, and can accept 1 burn to empower their kinetic blast if 5 HD or more. The creature also gains the kinetic defense of their elemental blast. Ability Modifiers: Dex +4, Con +4.

Thoughts?

Thought I'd take this for a little spin and used this to make a pyrokinetic troll. I mostly like it, though I ended up dropping the 'treat your kineticist level as hit die -2' bit as it's unnecessary and kind of confusing.

The template could probably use with a little bit of the Infusion Specialization burn reducer, and I'm considering adding it. Of course, lack of choices for pyrokinetic was a pain, but that will be fixed in the full release. Over all I think the template works giving me an 'elemental blaster' themed character without too much hassle.

I definitely foresee myself using this template I made in the future. The Kineticist is just such a good template to drop on creatures for a little more variety in them.

Designer

Tels wrote:


Thought I'd take this for a little spin...

Awesome, that troll is probably a terror to the troll community in general; Urxehl would approve!

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Will we be getting a list of archetype names, Mark?


Hmmm... Monk of the Four Winds has a more powerful elemental damage bonus on an unarmed strike than Kineticist does using Kinetic Fist... Granted, the Elemental Fist feat can be used only once per round and is limited use per day, but this doesn't sit well with me.

Monk of the Four Winds
1d6 at 1st
2d6 at 5th
3d6 at 10th
4d6 at 15th
5d6 at 20th

Kinetic Fist
1d6 at 1st
2d6 at 11th
3d6 at 17th

Should Kineticist with Kinetic Fist be treated as Monk of the Four Winds for the purpose of Elemental Fist damage? With an flaming amulet, Elemental Fist and Kinetic Fist, you could have a 9d6 flaming punch once per round at 20th level...


Tels wrote:

Hmmm... Monk of the Four Winds has a more powerful elemental damage bonus on an unarmed strike than Kineticist does using Kinetic Fist... Granted, the Elemental Fist feat can be used only once per round and is limited use per day, but this doesn't sit well with me.

Monk of the Four Winds
1d6 at 1st
2d6 at 5th
3d6 at 10th
4d6 at 15th
5d6 at 20th

Kinetic Fist
1d6 at 1st
2d6 at 11th
3d6 at 17th

Should Kineticist with Kinetic Fist be treated as Monk of the Four Winds for the purpose of Elemental Fist damage? With an flaming amulet, Elemental Fist and Kinetic Fist, you could have a 9d6 flaming punch once per round at 20th level...

The damage is a problem, but the real issue is what is the point of kinetic fist in the first place? Kinetic blade does almost the exact same thing flavor wise (you can't use kicks and headbutts, but that's just a matter of adding a minor flavor sentence). both involve coating your hand in kinetic energy. Just one is a gauntlet/boot/helmet and the other a sword (that can also be a gauntlet technically)

mechanically, one does straight blast damage and the other is a small bonus to normal damaging attacks. To a degree they can come out similar but...:

lvl 20:
------------
single fist attack: 3d6(kinetic)+ 1d3(phisical)+ 5 (purchased magical enhancment) ~5 (dex with damage somehow. If not,then more like +1)

average: 21 dmg on one hit (max:31) (min:12)
__________________
blade: 10d6 (20d6 if composites on a blade are a thing. assumes no outside enhancment)

average: 30 dmg on a hit(max:60, min 10) (60 with composite, max 120, min 20)
--------------

The fact that the damage is lower is bad enough. the fact that you have to spend money and feats to get even that much upgrades it form bad to unacceptable... ESPECIALLY when there is little to no flavor reason to take fist over blade. technically, if you take three levels of monk, fist is a benefit, but the cons outweigh the pros of doing that because the classes do not synergize well without an archetype to link them.


brightshadow360 wrote:
Tels wrote:
Hmmm... Monk of the Four Winds has a more powerful elemental damage bonus on an unarmed strike than Kineticist does using Kinetic Fist... *Snip*

The damage is a problem, but the real issue is what is the point of kinetic fist in the first place? Kinetic blade does almost the exact same thing flavor wise (you can't use kicks and headbutts, but that's just a matter of adding a minor flavor sentence). both involve coating your hand in kinetic energy. Just one is a gauntlet/boot/helmet and the other a sword (that can also be a gauntlet technically)

mechanically, one does straight blast damage and the other is a small bonus to normal damaging attacks. To a degree they can come out similar but...:

lvl 20:
------------
single fist attack: 3d6(kinetic)+ 1d3(phisical)+ 5 (purchased magical enhancment) ~5 (dex with damage somehow. If not,then more like +1)

average: 21 dmg on one hit (max:31) (min:12)
__________________
blade: 10d6 (20d6 if composites on a blade are a thing. assumes no outside enhancment)

average: 30 dmg on a hit(max:60, min 10) (60 with composite, max 120, min 20)
--------------

The fact that the damage is lower is bad enough. the fact that you have to spend money and feats to get even that much upgrades it form bad to unacceptable... ESPECIALLY when there is little to no flavor reason to take fist over blade. technically, if you take three levels of monk, fist is a benefit, but the cons outweigh the pros of doing that because the classes do not synergize well without an archetype to link them.

The thing holding back Kinetic Fist from being good, is probably the same thing that holds back so much of unarmed combat enhancements: Monsters and Druids.

Now, Druids probably won't be a problem, as a Druid is unlikely to get access to feats or abilities to advance Kinetic Blast progression like the Monk does with the Monk Robes and the feat Monastic Legacy which lets a 15th level Druid/5th level Monk count as a 17th level Monk for the purpose of his unarmed strike progression, and with Feral Combat Training, use those unarmed damage dice on wild shaped forms.

Monsters, however, can be an issue.

For example, a creature like a giant octopus with full Kinetic Blast progression on Kinetic Fist (a KinetiPus? OctoNetic?) would get some real mileage out of that kinetic fist damage bonus (assuming full progression). Even something as simple as 5 levels of Kineticist would mean the Octopus is getting +3d6 damage on the 9 attacks it receives.

So any monster with a large quantity of low-damage attacks would get a huge increase in damage from kineticist levels.

Personally, I think Kinetic Fist and Kinetic Blade both should only allow for half Kinetic Blast damage progression. Bumps up Kinetic Fist to useable levels, and also helps curb the overwhelming power of Kinetic Blade at the same time.


Tels wrote:

The thing holding back Kinetic Fist from being good, is probably the same thing that holds back so much of unarmed combat enhancements: Monsters and Druids.

Now, Druids probably won't be a problem, as a Druid is unlikely to get access to feats or abilities to advance Kinetic Blast progression like the Monk does with the Monk Robes and the feat Monastic Legacy which lets a 15th level Druid/5th level Monk count as a 17th level Monk for the purpose of his unarmed strike progression, and with Feral Combat Training, use those unarmed damage dice on wild shaped forms.

Monsters, however, can be an issue.

For example, a creature like a giant octopus with full Kinetic Blast progression on Kinetic Fist (a KinetiPus? OctoNetic?) would get some real mileage out of that kinetic fist damage bonus (assuming full progression). Even something as simple as 5 levels of Kineticist would mean the Octopus is getting +3d6 damage on the 9 attacks it receives.

So any monster with a large quantity of low-damage attacks would get a huge increase in damage from kineticist levels.

Personally, I think Kinetic Fist and Kinetic Blade both should only allow for half Kinetic Blast damage progression. Bumps up Kinetic Fist to useable levels, and also helps curb the overwhelming power of Kinetic Blade at the same time.

If your GM is sending out a kinetic fist octopus, that's not a mechanics issue so much as it is your GM being a complete and utter psychopath :)

I agree though. Fuse fist and blade into one talent (lets call it Kinetic Strike for now). Give it half blast damage AND the ability to be enhanced by equipment and party spells. Make the kinetisist be considered an unarmed fighter in terms of flavor only. He does not get unarmed benefits in terms of feats (unless he takes improved unarmed or takes an archetype in which case his Strike is compatible with stuff like stunning fist.

This should rebalance any multiclass trickery. A monk basicly makes up the difference in blast damage with his levels (baring monastic legacy,

(3 monk 17 kinetisist hits for 4d6+4+6+1d10+1+5 (average 33, min=21 max=50 on dice with assumed CON of +6, STR 1 and magic weapon +5)

max hits (4 with flurry) means 132 (average) min=84 max=200.

You will likely be hitting with at least 2 of your 4 so a typical turn will be about 66 damage. Seems reasonable for a class that is combat based

for comparison blasts deal:(normal blast: 36 (max 63, min 18) composite: 72 (max 128, min 36) . no outside enhancments

tl;dr: on a monk3 kinetisist 17, melee averages 33 (one hit)to 66 (two hits), blasts average is 36 to 72(composite blast)

1/2 blast to melee seems to work out mathwise to me with melee having to take risks to hit big, but for free and snipers having to spend resources to hit big, but outdoing melee if they do.

this build assumes weapon damage though, so weapon damage should be part of a kinetic strike. pure energy strikes deal 1d6 weapon damage while real weapons enhanced by strike deal their own?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think it is unacceptable to balance a class based on its multiclassing capabilities.


Verzen wrote:
I think it is unacceptable to balance a class based on its multiclassing capabilities.

we are more trying to discover ways kinetic fist could be salvaged and how it interacted with an unarmed class. If we are talking straight kinetisist, the melee loses 1d10, and replaces it with 1d3 and 1d6+1. That's a (min 1,max 10) -> (min3, max 10) difference. average goes up by 1 to 34 per hit, though you're less likely to get a second hit for 68

For blasting, the value increases by 1d6+1 for an average of 40 (min 20, max 70), and twice that much for composite to 80 (min 40, max 142)

this is 34 vs 40 for a basic hit and 68 VS 80 for a lucky/ resource hit.

Still somewhat balanced if we account for Kinetic strike getting other outside bonuses and blast not getting those bonuses, but getting more resource boosts. Though melee might need a little more (maybe 1 extra die?)

Naturally, This only accounts for what everyone should have at lvl 20, not for any other tricks people might employ.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If kinetic blade and kinetic fist did the same thing, kinetic fist would get an additional, free attack. If we just make kinetic fist 'half' only and allowed kinetic fist to add bonuses from magic fist weapons or what not.. I think that might balance them. I have not done the math though.


Verzen wrote:
If kinetic blade and kinetic fist did the same thing, kinetic fist would get an additional, free attack. If we just make kinetic fist 'half' only and allowed kinetic fist to add bonuses from magic fist weapons or what not.. I think that might balance them. I have not done the math though.

Why would Fist get an extra attack? That only applies if you take levels in monk (or the TWF feat).

Also, I forgot to account for CON mod to damage in my calculations. doesn't change the ratio though.

In general, melee should do more on a single hit vs a normal blast (compensation for melee being in more danger), but a supped up blast should do more than two melee hits due to using resources. Rather hard to balance those two rules.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

"Why would Fist get an extra attack? That only applies if you take levels in monk (or the TWF feat)."

Last I checked, if you attack with fists, you have two of them. If you take two weapon fighting and imp unarmed strike.. You have two of them.

With kinetic blade, you only have one blade.


brightshadow360 wrote:
Verzen wrote:
If kinetic blade and kinetic fist did the same thing, kinetic fist would get an additional, free attack. If we just make kinetic fist 'half' only and allowed kinetic fist to add bonuses from magic fist weapons or what not.. I think that might balance them. I have not done the math though.

Why would Fist get an extra attack? That only applies if you take levels in monk (or the TWF feat).

Also, I forgot to account for CON mod to damage in my calculations. doesn't change the ratio though.

In general, melee should do more on a single hit vs a normal blast (compensation for melee being in more danger), but a supped up blast should do more than two melee hits due to using resources. Rather hard to balance those two rules.

I disagree, melee shouldn't do more on a single attack than a single blast, what it should do, is more damage across a full attack and be useable during attacks of opportunity.


Verzen wrote:

"Why would Fist get an extra attack? That only applies if you take levels in monk (or the TWF feat)."

Last I checked, if you attack with fists, you have two of them. If you take two weapon fighting and imp unarmed strike.. You have two of them.

With kinetic blade, you only have one blade.

You do raise a good point. Is kinetic blade compatible with TWF? If not that changes the importance of Kinetic fist. If it is, Then keeping fist separate remains redundant.

Do note that this is a non-problem for monks as they can flurry with a single hand. It's normal TWF builds that are problematic. Personally, I would rule that you can form two (maybe for extra burn?).

also, new wild talent:

Foe hold: you can pick up an object or creature and hold them in place in the air as long as you concentrate up to a number of rounds equal to your CON modifier. You can spend an additional point of burn to increase this time to 1 minute per point of your con modifier.


Tels wrote:
I disagree, melee shouldn't do more on a single attack than a single blast, what it should do, is more damage across a full attack and be useable during attacks of opportunity.

but if blasts do more than a typical melee hit, then there is never a reason to melee, especially when blast enhancements come into play. damage scale, from least to greatest should be as follows:

blast -> melee single hit -> melee full attack -> enhanced blast

normal blast is weak because it involves no risk.
enhanced blast is super strong because of resource use
this leaves melee in the middle as it involves risk but is mostly free (after you get infusion specialization). An argument could be made for full melee to be higher than enhanced blasts due to them eventually becoming cheap though.

All of this is speculation though as I have not actually playtested the class and the final form is going to be completely different anyway.


brightshadow360 wrote:
Tels wrote:
I disagree, melee shouldn't do more on a single attack than a single blast, what it should do, is more damage across a full attack and be useable during attacks of opportunity.

but if blasts do more than a typical melee hit, then there is never a reason to melee, especially when blast enhancements come into play. damage scale, from least to greatest should be as follows:

blast -> melee single hit -> melee full attack -> enhanced blast

normal blast is weak because it involves no risk.
enhanced blast is super strong because of resource use
this leaves melee in the middle as it involves risk but is mostly free (after you get infusion specialization). An argument could be made for full melee to be higher than enhanced blasts due to them eventually becoming cheap though.

All of this is speculation though as I have not actually playtested the class and the final form is going to be completely different anyway.

The single blast of the Kineticist is supposed to give a lesser, but comparable, damage to that of a full attack (mostly when compared to an archery full attack). Archery itself does less damage than a full attack, but has more chances for it, which is why archery is a high damage combat style. Melee, however, gets a lot more damage bonuses, especially 2-hand melee.

Damage should be as such melee > archery > kinetic blast. However, due to the nature of the Kinetic Blast, it's single blast is going to due comparable damage to the full attack of other classes.

That means, if you use a system in which a single melee Kinetic Blast does the same damage as a ranged Kinetic Blast, then if the melee Kinetic Blast gets a full attack, it changes the damage progression to Melee Kineticist > melee full attack > archery > kinetic blast.

The Kineticist should not be the melee class to play, but it should still be functional as one. The best way to do that is to ensure that the melee option does more damage than a Kinetic Blast, but only over the course of a full attack.

Unfortunately, this means that melee kineticist at low levels won't be as good as ranged attacks (only a single attack), but that is also very appropriate as the Kineticist is designed more around ranged attacks than melee anyway.

As it stands, the Kineticist is one of if not the best switch hitter classes in the game. Right up there with Strength Rangers, and Dawnflower Dervish Bards.

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