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Hey, here's the guide I wrote on the Brawler.
It is very much a work-in-progress.
I am open to commentary, feature requests, build submissions and the like, to make the best compendium for the Brawler we can.
I hope you enjoy it.
Kisses.
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You had me at Wombo Combo.
The guide itself is less fun than it could have been.
By the way it's Knockout not Knockdown.
Half elves and half-orcs. I bring these up since they work well in solving one of the problems you noted- a poor will save. Half orcs have an alt trait that gives a +1 luck bonus to all saves, while half elves get one called dual minded that does +2 to just will saves.
Either of those, combined with a bit of investment of a good trait, the ironwill feat, and a basic 12 wis/8 cha move around in a point buy... the front loading makes a caster cleric look bad at early levels, and it keeps up with uninvested wizards at higher levels (and considering how many wizard guides say '7 wis'...). You can do decently.
Other tricks- It is possible to fake medium armor proficiency using only a trait. This is because the penalty for nonproficient armor use is apply the Armor Check Penalty to attack rolls. But if ACP is 0, then the penalty is 0. Combining the Armor Expert trait with Mithral covers a total of 4 ACP, which is enough for almost every medium armor. Since you would want mithral armor for speed issues anyway, this is a fairly good deal. One trait for a possible +2 AC.
I also love the idea of flurrying with a bayonet. I am curious why there seems to be a problem with it? While the brawler's flurry is more explicitly TWF, it does still contain language about how you can flurry with 1 weapon as well as discussion on how to treat 2 handed weapons. It is also in the close weapon group. For clarity, what was the issue?
And may I say- I kind of want to take advantage of the fact that the game setting assumes 'early guns'. I want to have a brawler that fights with a bayonet on a trashed out musket (kind of like the musket given by the gunslinger class, that is just scrap metal when others use it), and the brawler doesn't even realize that it is something other than a funny spear. My recent reading chocies have definitely left me with the desire for a wild child/tiger combo.....
Half elves and half-orcs. I bring these up since they work well in solving one of the problems you noted- a poor will save. Half orcs have an alt trait that gives a +1 luck bonus to all saves, while half elves get one called dual minded that does +2 to just will saves.
Either of those, combined with a bit of investment of a good trait, the ironwill feat, and a basic 12 wis/8 cha move around in a point buy... the front loading makes a caster cleric look bad at early levels, and it keeps up with uninvested wizards at higher levels (and considering how many wizard guides say '7 wis'...). You can do decently.
Other tricks- It is possible to fake medium armor proficiency using only a trait. This is because the penalty for nonproficient armor use is apply the Armor Check Penalty to attack rolls. But if ACP is 0, then the penalty is 0. Combining the Armor Expert trait with Mithral covers a total of 4 ACP, which is enough for almost every medium armor. Since you would want mithral armor for speed issues anyway, this is a fairly good deal. One trait for a possible +2 AC.
I also love the idea of flurrying with a bayonet. I am curious why there seems to be a problem with it? While the brawler's flurry is more explicitly TWF, it does still contain language about how you can flurry with 1 weapon as well as discussion on how to treat 2 handed weapons. It is also in the close weapon group. For clarity, what was the issue?
And may I say- I kind of want to take advantage of the fact that the game setting assumes 'early guns'. I want to have a brawler that fights with a bayonet on a trashed out musket (kind of like the musket given by the gunslinger class, that is just scrap metal when others use it), and the brawler doesn't even realize that it is something other than a funny spear. My recent reading chocies have definitely left me with the desire for a wild child/tiger combo.....
1. I note in the race selection section that races will good Will saves are something to look forward to.
2. Not a great solution, since using Medium armor removes the AC bonus from the Brawler. However, that seems like a great choice for a Mutagenic Mauler, if they have the traits to spare... but then again, you'd also need to spend a feat. Looks like too many hoops to jump around to me.
3. Well, Flurry says you can attack with it as though you had TWF, but a bayonet is two-handed so TWF helps you in no way... perhaps combining it with Spiked Armor? But then again, it says that the Brawler "applies her full Strength modifier" to attacks while flurrying, so would that mean you don't apply 1.5 Strength to the Bayonet? Would you still get the bonus damage from Power Attack? Looks like a mess XD
Anyway, the idea is still out there. Perhaps after some FAQ we could finally know what up.
2) why do you need to spend a feat? You don't take non-proficiency penalty because the armor penalty is reduced to 0 if you have the trait.
3) "She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability." You can do all your flurry with the bayonet. And it'll do 1xstr and -1/+3 for power attack.
Toss in Fate's Favored and you've just bought yourself the equivalent of all 3 save boosting Feats in one (and an extra +1 AC when you eventually get a Jingasa). Half-Orcs are pretty rad like that.
Not quite as good as a Glory of Old/Steel Soul Dwarf, but less investment.
1. I note in the race selection section that races will good Will saves are something to look forward to.
2. Not a great solution, since using Medium armor removes the AC bonus from the Brawler. However, that seems like a great choice for a Mutagenic Mauler, if they have the traits to spare... but then again, you'd also need to spend a feat. Looks like too many hoops to jump around to me.
3. Well, Flurry says you can attack with it as though you had TWF, but a bayonet is two-handed so TWF helps you in no way... perhaps combining it with Spiked Armor? But then again, it says that the Brawler "applies her full Strength modifier" to attacks while flurrying, so would that mean you don't apply 1.5 Strength to the Bayonet? Would you still get the bonus damage from Power Attack? Looks like a mess XD
1. Fair enough.
2. That is interesting actually. Mithral has this to say
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light.
Assuming that the rules concerning armor for brawlers fits under the broad term 'other limitations', then mithraled medium armor should work for the brawler. Similarly, it appears to work for bards, magi, summoners, etc- any of the arcane casters that use armor.
3. While the exact place where it is officially state is lost on me (I swear there was a FAQ about this somewhere, but currently, I can only find a rules thread. Well, you can possibly satisfy yourself with the Lance FAQ that says '2 handed is 2 handed for power attack, even if it is only in 1 hand'; check around the flurry FAQ and rules threads to find more specific info), the fact remains that monks can get 2 handed power attack during flurry, and the fact that their str mod damage only gets a x1 doesn't change that. And since the language of the brawler's flurry is similar, it should be alright.
Another way to look at this- the temple sword is a 1 handed weapon rather than a light weapon. This is important, since it was part of a set of three weapons that were added with the express intent of giving monks nice things (since early on they were rather.....well, it was released at the same time as AoMF, so you can guess how desperate monks were. I think their only other option was the quarterstaff, and that doesn't help against werewolves). Since this was done in benevolence, the fact that the temple sword was cut off from the path of finesse means it was built for a different purpose. The only advantage it has is 2 handing in that case. I'm not sure if this part of my argument is entirely sound, but it is how I understand this game's publishing history...
EDIT- Rynjin: While steel soul is great, I always worry about the fact that it only covers spells and slas. It makes me worry about supernatural abilities. Take with a grain of salt and some iron will (and racial bonus to wis).
So something in your Build Considerations section. I think you're a little confused about what the sunder, trip and disarm weapon properties do. Anybody and use those maneuvers with any weapon or unarmed. The weapon property gives you a little perk for doing it with that weapon. So weapon finesse will work on those maneuvers as long as the weapon you use qualifies for finesse.
Bull rush doesn't need a charge to work. you can do it as a standard action.
Also about tripping, they provoke while on the ground, so you can't use that AoO to trip them again. You get it while they are prone, and then they stand up. You can't stop them from standing up.
Changes where made to reflect this.
Hey, guys, contacting you for two favors:
1. Any feature requests you'd like to see?
2. Can you guys compile some nice Brawlery images to adorn the guide?
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Well, this page right here seems like a good argument for bayonet wielding wild childs. Because tiger infantry/cavalry. That would get kids to pay attention in history class, where the results of battles end with the enemy commander getting his face bitten off.
I am sure there are nicer images in other places in the series (such as the cover page) but the medium means that you will be hard placed to find cleaner ones.
UPDATE Added a section on Style feats on Build Considerations and added some pictures to the Race and Considerations sections.
Well, this page right here seems like a good argument for bayonet wielding wild childs. Because tiger infantry/cavalry. That would get kids to pay attention in history class, where the results of battles end with the enemy commander getting his face bitten off.
I am sure there are nicer images in other places in the series (such as the cover page) but the medium means that you will be hard placed to find cleaner ones.
An argument against is the fact Wild Childs lose Close Weapon Mastery, alas.
A potential race to mention is Hobgoblins. +2 Dex & Con, Darkvision 60ft, and a +4 bonus to stealth. Nothing too amazing on its own, but all in all a decent package, I think.
Hobgoblins are one of my favorite races and I usually roll them for any martial.
The bad part is that none of the racial traits beyond the attributes and darkvision are amazing. The extra Stealth is nice, but you are not that great of a stealther, without the class skill or hide in plain sight. The Intimidate bonus is awesome for builds based on that, sure. Magehunter is cool, and what I usually go with. Battle-Hardened is also a good option.
But in any case, I think I made it clear in the race section that I wasn't going to talk about each and every race, as I made clear what attributes or bonuses were good and which weren't.
Great guide. I'm trying out a Snakebite Brawler/Sanctified Stalker Inquisitor build myself.
Jabbing Style is your friend here I think, ensures the Sneak Attacks with the flanking mobility.
Of course, if Pummeling Style is allowed that's bound to be better.
Also, I used a ton of pictures from that link so thank you!!
An argument against is the fact Wild Childs lose Close Weapon Mastery, alas.Well, this page right here seems like a good argument for bayonet wielding wild childs. Because tiger infantry/cavalry. That would get kids to pay attention in history class, where the results of battles end with the enemy commander getting his face bitten off.
I am sure there are nicer images in other places in the series (such as the cover page) but the medium means that you will be hard placed to find cleaner ones.
Well, while it is nice for things like unarmed strikes or brass knuckles (which have tiny damage dice), I think that bayonets do not benefit quite as much since the damage dice progression is your brawler level -4.
Bayonets do not see any difference until level 8 (and that is just a move of 1d6 to 1d8..which is a bit 'meh'), and until level 20 you never see anything more than an extra 1d6 usually. I think an animal companion can be more valuable than that, especially since you can grab mounted skirmisher for pseudo pounce action (and I think that a tiger mount could still get regular pounce).
Of course, I am sure you can find useful buffs and items to change that math up a bit, but the AC is still a rather valid enough thing to trade out for.
An argument against is the fact Wild Childs lose Close Weapon Mastery, alas.Well, this page right here seems like a good argument for bayonet wielding wild childs. Because tiger infantry/cavalry. That would get kids to pay attention in history class, where the results of battles end with the enemy commander getting his face bitten off.
I am sure there are nicer images in other places in the series (such as the cover page) but the medium means that you will be hard placed to find cleaner ones.
Well, while it is nice for things like unarmed strikes or brass knuckles (which have tiny damage dice), I think that bayonets do not benefit quite as much since the damage dice progression is your brawler level -4.
Bayonets do not see any difference until level 8 (and that is just a move of 1d6 to 1d8..which is a bit 'meh'), and until level 20 you never see anything more than an extra 1d6 usually. I think an animal companion can be more valuable than that, especially since you can grab mounted skirmisher for pseudo pounce action (and I think that a tiger mount could still get regular pounce).
Of course, I am sure you can find useful buffs and items to change that math up a bit, but the AC is still a rather valid enough thing to trade out for.
Oh yeah dude don't misinterpret me. I'm just talking about optimization, you can go any build you like.
Mounted feats are sadly not optimal because you don't have that many feats. You need much more to make it work.
Overall, I think that you are better off making a Ranger or Hunter build, for optimization sakes.
Oh yeah dude don't misinterpret me. I'm just talking about optimization, you can go any build you like.
Mounted feats are sadly not optimal because you don't have that many feats. You need much more to make it work.
Overall, I think that you are better off making a Ranger or Hunter build, for optimization sakes.
Meh, if I had that bent, I think I would just use the animal ally feat to grab a mount for a sohei and enjoy flurry+2handed power attack+weapon training+gloves of dueling.
Heck, they can take advantage of their archetype's vague changes to bonus feat to grab the mounted skirmisher at 'did they even read pounce evolution?!' levels.
Also, isn't the brawler the king of long feat chains since they can just grab them with martial flexibility? The only real loss is the fact that you need to devote 2 skill points to pull this off (ride and handle animal)
Did you SEE the kangaroo one?
(And yeah, I'll remove them if they slow the browser)
i gotta say, i like the guide, its actually gotten me interested in making a brawler, do you have any advice on making a dex-based unarmed striker build using the Unblinking Flame mystery?
Yeah I saw your thread!
My advice is as follows:
There are two kinds of grapplers - the Tetori Monk and the rest. If you are not playing a Tetori, you are going to really justify why.
The Strangler Brawler, for example, makes a strong case for a grappler since you can easily pin enemies and quickly make them unconscious.
The Winding Path Renegade is more of a casual grappler. You can't fully specialize in grapples since you lack the utility a grapple based archetype provides.
Your best bet is using your faster movement and high jump to land on a target and quickly disable them.
I'd use either Grabbing Style or Snapping Turtle Clutch (with clutch, you can jump on a charge, hit them, and get a free grapple attempt; grabbing style is better to jump and grab right away).
You are going to be low on feats because you are going Finesse and Winding Path Renegade, so you will rely a lot on proper feat choice and deep knowledge of Martial Flex.
the character isnt specialized to grapple, its more like something they can do, the faster movement and freedom of movement abilities caught my eye a little bit more than the grapple did, i intend to be mixing it up in melee by punching stuff left and right, to which the style feats have caught my eye, maybe i should do Pummeling Style?
Then go pummeling style/charge/bully, get maneuver feats through flexibility as necessary
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Full disclosure, I was pretty drunk when I made that section.
I fixed it and gave a pass on the rest of the builds.
I'd be glad to host any builds you guys post though!
How are you getting Pummeling Charge at 7th level?
I promised I wouldn't tell how.
You really need a section on dips.
Take monk 2 for example: It's fantastic for a brawler because of the Master of Many Styles archetype. It can get two style or style-advancing feats, and most abilities you care about work in armor regardless; the problem, ordinarily, is lack fo flurry, and you're trading that away.
The kicker is that you don't need to meet the prereqs for bonus style feats, for it translates into pummeling style at lvl 1, and pummeling charge at level two.
As you don't get flurry from monk, I recommend mutagenic mauler2/master of many styles2. For your other style feat I recommend Dragon Style+ferocity. Depending on how you read the interactions, you might get the dragon style beneft on all you 'attacks'. Even if you don't, it's still stellar, as the brawler lacks for damage, and you have stellar str.
Barbarian 1, combined with extra rage to get your rage to last(Bloodrager works too if you want to be lawful, maybe because of monk 2)
Unarmed Fighter 3 gets +1 to hit and +3 to damage, as well as a no-prereqs style feat.
Mutagenic Mauler 2/Master of Many styles 2/bloodrager 1/Brawler x with the following normal feats is an interesting build.
1: Power Attack, 3: Dragon Style, 5: Dragon Ferocity, 7: Extra Rage.
Oh, yeah, I wanted to make something about multiclassing and prestige classes, thanks for reminding me!
Work in progress multiclass section added.
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Brawlers rejoice! Pummeling Charge no longer banned in PFS! Adding changes to reflect that.
I finished the Multiclass section, so taking comments on it.
Just throwing this out there since the weapon comparison was rather inclusive: Wooden stakes can be made of iron (and thus other metals for game mechanics) based off of their description, so they are viable enough as far as close weapons go.
There are even unique weapons like the Stake of the Righteous that are silver stakes (for the obvious reason that it should work on vampires)
So, while it is hardly more effective than the iron brush (another thrown weapon with some vague disguise potential)... sometimes you just want to play the guy that punches out a vampire and then stabs them in the heart (let's be honest- your mental image is going to end up being Wesley Snipes). Of course, the iron brush does make me want to make a based off a bakemonogatari character.
That reminds me I likely want a magical equipment section... but in my group, we mostly play with our own custom magical equipment rather than using the books (tradition I guess?) so it's the hardest part for me.
That reminds me I likely want a magical equipment section... but in my group, we mostly play with our own custom magical equipment rather than using the books (tradition I guess?) so it's the hardest part for me.
And besides brawling armor for unarmed builds, there is hardly anything that screams out to you like a barbarian with a courageous, furious weapon would.
Great magic items for Brawlers:
Belt of superior maneuvers (+1-+5): Even the +1 gives you another use of Martial Flexibilty.
Gauntlets, Giant Fist: Free Bull Rush on Unarmed Attack
Monks Robe: Gives you a higher Unarmed Damage and AC. AC Bonus can vary a bit, depending on the interpretation of your GM.
Armbands of the Brawler: 500 GP for a +1 to Grapple CMB/CMD.
Skullcrusher Gauntlets: 1/Day Knockout (on a successful save still staggered), +2 DC for the class ability "Awesome Blow". Expensive...
Amulet of Mighty Fists: Especially for Unarmed Builds.Just a few I have planned to nag my GM about.
Giant fist gauntlets seem rather good. In fact, it sounds freakin' awesome if you combine it with pummeling style. To have your fist grow huge and then do a haymaker and send the other guy crashing into the crowd/wall. Is this a tabletop or a fighting game? Heh That, and the fact that is also both strategically useful and highly efficient with the action economy (can I trip with pummeling bully at the same time?)...
After that...eh....the belt seems like it has enough uses (with enough flexibility) to be useful.
But going past that, there is actually an interesting question I want to ask and debate: Is the Amulet of Might Fists (and other unarmed enhancing items) essential if you are using pummeling style?
I bring this up because pummeling style is designed to solve the problem that used to be solved with the Amulet- getting through DR. Since it concentrates everything into 1 attack, it should only hit DR once, right? That means DR/20 is DR/3 when you have 7 attacks
So could you look to other alternatives for enhancements that were inferior before due to DR issues? Greater Magic Fang/Weapon give fairly good enhancement scaling, and they are hours/level (so they might only need maybe 3 castings per day at worst; side note: unarmed strikes only count as 1 weapon for those spells, even you can TWF punches). Now, I know many do not like relying on buffs for builds (although the options are wide enough that having any divine caster could well suffice). But buying a level III or IV pearl of power seems like it could solve the problem without wasting party resources.
Equipment section added!
Also, you always want Amulet of Mighty Fists if you go unarmed, because you want to get Impact and Keen.
Equipment section added!
Also, you always want Amulet of Mighty Fists if you go unarmed, because you want to get Impact and Keen.
Why can't you just take improved critical instead of keen?
I mean, as far as I am aware, keen requires you to do piercing and slashing. And since this discussion is about 'skipping AoMF when you have pummeling style', it takes some more ferangling to get it to work (MoMS dip so you can grab 2 styles, or grabbing hamatula strike/martial versatility). And since you have to spend feats anyway... why not just grab improved critical? It is not like you have very much room to get much on a AoMF before level 8 anyway
So this debate comes down to impact vs. saving a rather large chunk of your wealth later on. I mean, you might have to buy a few pearls of power to bribe your caster, but eventually it will take less castings to get you through the day, and as such you can then trade the pearls for more of that caster's share of the loot.
Not sure if you can use Keen if you get snake style.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes. While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent targets you with a melee or ranged attack, you can spend an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check. You can use the result as your AC or touch AC against that attack. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
There are a few feats that I think you should mention.
Horn of the Criosphinx definitely deserves some consideration, especially if you are taking the Pummeling Style Chain.
your section of fighter feats lists +1 attack and +4 damage, when it should be +2/+4, due to greater weapon focus
There's a revision in the works, I'll mention clasp and ghost touch!
Horn is good if you don't use dragon style, that's true.
your section of fighter feats lists +1 attack and +4 damage, when it should be +2/+4, due to greater weapon focus
everyone can get weapon focus