Party went full "we have freedom to do anything"


Kingmaker


an i have no idea what to do

to start, this is my forst time DMing and my players are completely new to this game, i tld them that they are free to do what they want but every action has consequences.

we had nice little 3 player party ready, Half-Orc Barbarian, Goblin rogue and Aasimar Cleric. They all are really nice people and i was sure we will have awesome campaign about exploration. But everything changed when i said "in the distance you see Olegs Trading Post, What do you guys do?"

"i set up trap and steal s#!% from people"
"i go an hunt for some humies and eat them"
"i go kill some animals for food"

ok, not that bad, i rolled all rolls, they found human, killed him and looted, got some stuff from him. then they go to the Trading post.

and f****** burn it down, kill Oleg and his wife, eat their bodies, talk NPC that i created to join them on their journey (the NPC is blind, couldnt see all the s$@$ the PCs did) and now they are off to meet the bandits they heard about.

so now i have no idea what to do, most likely they will join the bandits or something, also i have no idea what to do with the NPCs that had to come to the Trading post or the bandits that were supposed to attack there. i would really like if someone gave me some options about what to do


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

are they evil? i know evil and thats as evil as evil gets,

the next phase is how to punish them if they aren't evil, luckily you're the GM so really your options are as limitless as your imagination. i've found no one can resist magic items, especially cursed items;) theres lots of ways, i'm sure the sword lords won't be happy about all the pillaging in their name (you did show them the charter at the beginning i hope, if not do so it might clear things up for them).

if they were already evil, well then see how far they take it, or until you aren't comfortable (you're supposed to have fun too!)

the best option of course is having a nice civil conversation on where they want to take the campaign and maybe try a do-over:)


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1)Ensure it says chaotic evil on all their character sheets (not a problem if you let them play CE, but thats what they are)
2)Any Divine casters/Paladins who are not CE , lose all their abilities bonus points if one of the pc's is a Paladin for writing anti in front of it.
3)The bandit group heading to the trading post will see the column of smoke and leave
4) the blind NPC will have heard screams, fire and smelled cooking flesh he will hope to escape these lunatics
5) Any nearby settlements or military patrols will investigate the smoke they will probably have a tracker who will try to find the bandits (the pc's)
6) IIRC the bandits were running a protection scheme, they will be pissed at the pc's for wrecking that and likely want to kill them to get all the loot the pc's have

My favored option
Talk to your players , explain to them that the prepared game you are running assumes that the characters are vaguely civilized and you are not comfortable making up everything (everyone deserves consideration including the gm) offer them a chance to redo. Offer to let one of them take over as GM and have fun playing a murderhobo in his game


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Personally, I would have dropped a very large owl-bear on them the second they tried that. But then I don't allow evil characters in the parties I GM.

However, that doesn't solve your problem now. It sounds to me as if you and your players have completely different ideas about the way the game should go. Before I start any game, I sit down with my players and talk about the game we are going to play. It isn't in great detail but I do make sure they know how I expect the game to go. If that doesn't fit with what they want to do, then we change the game. We might even change the GM, if the group wants to play a style of game that I am uncomfortable with running (I don't run Evil games and rarely play in them).

It sounds like you need to do that with your party now, before you go any further. If they want to play CN / CE type thugs and killers, then I would suggest you find a new game to run, because that doesn't really suit Kingmaker.

Kingmaker is not an easy game to GM - and to be honest I wouldn't recommend it as a first GM attempt anyway. I think I have worked harder running Kingmaker than any other modules I have brought. It was nearly as much work as when I was building and running my own campaigns from scratch. I have just tried to steer my son away from running KM as a campaign, because he is a fairly new GM with a fairly new group of players - and there is an awful lot of extra stuff for everyone to do in Kingmaker.

For a whole group of new players, I would start with something that was not as sandbox-y as kingmaker. Find something that is more directive which will lets you and the players feel each other out, as you gel together as a playing group.

Maybe try "Hollows Last Hope" (and then the rest of that series) to start with. The area is all well documented, there is a good interesting story line and there is already an 'evil' regime in the town. If the PCs go ape, you will have a whole bunch of NPCs to help them toe the line.


In this case ... given how evil they area, I'd realign things so that they're surrounded, more or less. The Swordlords of Restov, one they learn what your players did, are going to send Kesten Garess with a MUCH larger force to take out these mad PCs. Meanwhile, the Stag Lord is going to regard them as interlopers. He's going to try to bring them under his thumb, or else run them off. Beyond that ... you're essentially going to have to rewrite all of the modules. Your players are way past evil and into insane.

I know Kingmaker is a sandbox, but you can still provide your players with SOME guidance. Did you give them any guidance from the outset?


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If you talk to the players and reset the campaign, replace the Stag Lord with their previous characters!

If they stay evil and want to continue with the campaign, they could still build a kingdom, but you will have a lot of work to rewrite who is with them and who is against. Maybe they could ally with other nations of the non-good alignment. Would Irovetti sponsor them instead of Restov?

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How old are you and your players?

If you guys are around twelve,I'll say "game on, young dudes!" If you guys are twenty-something, I'll say "stick to CoD" Some people get a little taste of freedom and they wreck it.

-Skeld

Dark Archive

I wouldn't call Kingmaker a true sandbox because it makes certain assumptions. They are few, but vital.

One is that the first book is an exploration adventure. If they are seeking out civilized races and slaughtering them, then there's not much in the book to help you and they will rapidly run out of targets since the information the book provides is geared in a different direction.

Another, and maybe more important, Oleg's was their link to civilization. Without it, there's no quests, storylines, base camp, etc.

Maybe, if they're lucky, Restov doesn't care enough about the loss of Oleg's to bother finding out what happened. Maybe, if you feel generous, it's just blamed on the bandits and you can reconstruct the missing elements. With the bandits handled someone else sets up shop (which it sounds like your players will then just kill them too).

OR...

Restov does care, does investigate, and the PC's become outlaws.

The bad news is, this makes the Kingmaker books relatively worthless to you, other than providing some maps and filling it with some pre-set encounters. At least, not without some HEAVY rewriting, along the lines of Josephs suggestion.

The good news is you have an excellent lead in to "Way of the Wicked" instead, which it sounds like these players might find much more interesting.


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You sir, have murderhobos. Honest to the abyss cannibal murderhobos.

If used as the villains for a traditional party, they would be regarded as 'unrealistic' or 'Oh, s+#*! We're dealing with like, possessed demon-cultists aren't we.'

If you encountered the Stag Lord's gang, they would be revolted, then do their best to kill the party. Being a capricious murdering cannibal has that effect on people, even bandits.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't add rape into the mix.


i try to talk to my players so they would cool down little and stop just killing everything they see, i could give them few advice's on how to continue (they could indeed say that bandits burned the olegs house and pillaged it)

about the characters, the orc is indeed evil, the goblin is neutral and believes the orc to be the leader of the group and was on his side on killing humans because of that, i heard that he regrets what they did which is good. last is the aasimar who just went with the flow, he doesnt want to lose his only friends (his the one that convinced the blind man to join them and the one taking care of him now)

i thought about how to continue with things, the game could continue normally, they have lost the "Home base" but i could make it so that new one is build somewhere else, they would explore normally and the first book would end with killing the bandits and stag lord.
other what i thought about is that they could join the bandits, and make the Stag lords lair the main base (they could get some of the quests there). in the end they would back-stab stag-lord and take his place as the leaders of the bandits.

i believe that this adventure might actually still become something, i will try my best to make it to the end.


You have a party that wants to play an evil party of murder hobos. Not the kind of game I usually run (though not completely opposed). If that's what you want just go with it. If it's really upsetting to you you need to have a talk.

Also, as a first time gm I'd really recommend running published adventures. Even though I home brewed everything going when I started I think I did myself and my players a disservice. If this game falls apart see about rurunning them in a few modules, then move onto an AP. After that you'll be much more prepared for a freestyle game.

Edit: sorry didn't realize until after I posted we were in kingmaker.

I still stand by running some modules first, and THEN an ap, that's NOT skulls and shackles or king maker. I have a few friends that have run each and the degree of system mastery required for each of those is likely to be higher than any other AP you may run. Their sandbox structure makes them especially difficult, and your players sound like they may do better on the rails.


i forgot to write why they killed oleg and burned down the place, it wasnt JUST because its fun.
they walked to the trading post, main reason was food. they already stole food from the random traveler so plan was to just eat and then sleep and after that continue journey.
how ever, the aasimar and goblin got the best idea ever to touch Olegs wife inappropriately and of coarse Oleg got mad, said few bad words. Orc got mad because of that and bushed oleg down, yelled him little and then went on to take care about his horse. Oleg was mad and said few bad words about the orc, this was mistake from my part because orc took this very personally, hi then hit oleg (but didnt damage him badly yet) and the battle started. there were few guards that i had created that joined the fight too and soon there were bodies everywhere (i really didnt believe that it would go that far). they decided that they should burn the place down to not leave any evidence about what they did. then they talked to the retarded blind man and bluffed him to think that there was little bandit attack and then convinced him to join them.


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Ah! So they did add sexual assualt to the mix!
well what i'd do is kill them all, and either tell them to make a new party that doesnt murder, rape and pillage or i'd tell them all to f~$~ off and find a group with less baggage (yes I did the 2nd option)


The follow-ups don't make this sound much better. If I had players who wanted to do that, I'd walk away from the table and tell them I'm not the GM for them. It's true that sometimes, playing the villains can be a fun creative outlet. But the group you describe isn't fun. It's Charles Manson levels of disturbing.


when did i wrote that i am not having fun? we are having blast right now, the way they took is just so different from what i expected and prepared for and the stolen lands book doenst have anything that could help me with this situation.

thats why iam asking help, how should i chance the story (other than kill all of them and restart) and what should i do with all the quests and future kingdom building?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Invest in Way of the Wicked is the only answer I see, but even that hedges more LE then CE which is what you guys are doing, good luck:)

Grand Lodge

If you're enjoying it and they're enjoying it then I would suggest just running with it and creating an adventure on your own to match your player's interest. Kingmaker is going to be nearly impossible (and a lot of extra work) to get working for a Chaotic Evil party (which they are).


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captain yesterday wrote:
Invest in Way of the Wicked is the only answer I see, but even that hedges more LE then CE which is what you guys are doing, good luck:)

Way of the Wicked starts with the players imprisoned for some heinous crime and under sentence of death. Yes, I know, that's technically a spoiler, but I'm literally spoiling the rising of the curtain. (On a similar note,.... did you know that Planet of the Apes has simians in it? And Star Wars is set partially in space?)

I think you have an awesome opportunity here. Send a CR 10 team of Marines or Texas Rangers or something, beat them soundly into submission, and throw them in the can -- then start WotW.

Even the CE/LE issue isn't an issue, since WotW is designed for evil parties, not just LE parties.

Shadow Lodge

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First off, this thread has me rolling (and praying nobody came into my office and wondered what I was laughing at). "Honest to the abyss cannibal murderhobos" indeed. Makes it sound like an infestation. "Honey call the exterminator! We got murderhobos again!"

I definitely recommend ditching Kingmaker and swerving into Way of the Wicked, if that's the way you and your players want to go.

If you don't want to do that, however (which I can totally understand, having spent the money for Kingmaker and not getting to use it would be irritating to some people), you've got some options. It'll take a great deal of revision, but you can probably work something out.

Chapter One can probably be mostly run as-is. The Stag Lord's probably not interested in sharing territory. Akiros might decide the PCs are just as bad as Staggy and GTFO while the getting's good, and might become a recurring antagonist. Ditto possibly for Dovan and Auchs, or they might decide the PCs are more suitable bandit kings and offer their services in exchange for not getting eaten.

Chapter Two likewise can be run as-is, or you can use Dudemeister's awesome "Hargulka's Monster Kingdom" adaptation. Either way works - the troll king is likely not interested in working with the PCs at all.

Chapter Three is probably the first opportunity they'll have to make an actual change in the plot. If the PCs want, Vordakai might be pragmatic enough to be interested in an alliance. The guy eats brains for fun and worships the Four Horsemen, there's not much depravity he won't be tolerant of. Playing up an ancient rivalry between him and Nyrissa might work in the PCs' favor as well. And what evil party wouldn't want a lich on their side?

I imagine your players aren't going to be heavily interested in kingdom building (correct me if I'm wrong though!), so Chapters Four and Five will need some revision, as they won't be likely to have the armies to hold off Armag or Pitax. Alternatively, sic 'em on 'em anyway, and see if the players can be creative enough to figure out a solution. Heck, maybe they can become allies with Armag and/or Irovetti as well. Irovetti already hires trolls, an Oni, lots of lycanthropes, and a Naga in his retinue.

Chapter Six can be mostly run as-is, with Nyrissa making her move at last and attempting to sweep these annoying cannibals off the face of her lands.

Shadow Lodge

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Quote:
Chapter Three is probably the first opportunity they'll have to make an actual change in the plot. If the PCs want, Vordakai might be pragmatic enough to be interested in an alliance. The guy eats brains for fun and worships the Four Horsemen, there's not much depravity he won't be tolerant of. Playing up an ancient rivalry between him and Nyrissa might work in the PCs' favor as well. And what evil party wouldn't want a lich on their side?

Minor addendum to this: obviously you'll have to work on the plot hook for Chapter Three, as the Swordlords or whoever your sponsors were are unlikely to send a request of "hey go look into your neighbors, they've stopped answering their voicemail" to this little band of rampaging lunatics. Maybe fast-forward things a bit to where Vordakai has become more active, driving the Nomen and the Spriggans into the PCs' territory; after facing off what at first looks to them like an invasion from the east, they can march off and discover the lich and his minions setting up shop in the Varnhold/Nomen Heights area.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

What if They heard about an evil artifact to the east that'll really help their realm of villainy, they go to pillage varnhold and look for the artifact however its empty, not allowing a populace to go unterrorized they seek out the source:)

Shadow Lodge

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Also could work. You'd have to come up with a good excuse about how their informant knows there's an artifact there, or why they felt a need to lie to people who will eat them if they are discovered =)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

what if they found bits and pieces of a book, map, scroll, stone tablet, etc. maybe in places like the faerie tower and the hidden barrow with the final piece showing up at the beginning of book 3 in the hands of a down on his luck archaeologist or just someone they happen to murder on the side of the road

Dark Archive

You could have them arrested and then start running Way of the Wicked Adventure Path

Shadow Lodge

A bit late on the draw Mazlith, that got mentioned several times already =)


More I think about it, with a party like that I would probably go with Skulls and Shackles :)


JohnB wrote:
More I think about it, with a party like that I would probably go with Skulls and Shackles :)

Arrr ye shore about that?

(Yes, misspelling of "sure" is intentional. Arrr!)


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I'm starting to think the whole thing is farce if it even happened at all:)


Really? Now why would you ever think that? ^_^


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the goblin felt guilty;)
also everything else:)


I am working on an AP called Kingslayer. It is for CE types, initially with a demonic patron. Your gang sound ideal for a playtest, let me know if you want access to the google.doc

In our run of KM Olegton became a town which the party did annex. Party where mix of LN and LE

If the OP can cope with such a dark turn of events, then you could destroy your way to victory


To be honest - I can't see the Sowrdlords letting your party get away with it.
To have their names associated with a bunch of rampant homicidal maniacs? I
very much doubt it. If I were the Swordlords, I'd pay to have your party 'put
down'...

That being the case - you're going to have to do some MAJOR story revision. Yes,
you can still run it - there are even other threads discussing how to do it with
an evil party.

Search & you shall find.


While "Rape, Pilage and Burn" style games are not my personal cup of tea, Kingmaker is suited for running one with relatively little modifications, if, as it seems, both you and your PCs are having fun. Disregard all the suggestions along the lines of "nobody particularly cares when Stag Lord and whatever does the banditing, but when PCs do the same, elite hit squad time it is". Most of the enemies still are going to be the enemies because they don't care about your morals in the first place. The only problem I see is PCs slaughtering things so indiscriminately, that they will be left with no support base. As long as they are willing to accept submission from the survivors of Stag Lord's bandits, kobolds, surviving trolls and the rest of evil bastards you can find around the map, they can make perfectly fine bandit kings. And then drop the "bandit" part once they grow powerful and terrifying enough. Nyrissa and her goons might serve as a source of necessary services, like buying magic items, seeing that the party is destroying outpost of civilization, until they will have a disagreement about who owns the Stolen Lands.


Not looking for any endgame spoilers or anything here... we're in the middle of running this AP ourselves. We're about to start book 5, and honestly, so far it seems a very morality neutral AP.

MY character is a paladin-king who is raising up a LG society and pushing back any threats to his people for the sake of good.... However, most of the encounters and plot points seem to be based on the idea of 'WE really wanted that land... Get out!!' Most of the enemies we've fought would STILL have attacked or caused trouble if we were cannibal murder-hobos too.

The main difference I see happening, is bandits or Stag lord MAY join your group... Instead of killing all the evil guys around... They could take them over. Staq lord would still have to die, never trust him to not stab you in the back... but the rest should be easy to crush under your thumbs... Then build up a society of evil.

The swordlords wouldn't do nuthin. They have their own civil war going on up there... and frankly they put you in charge down there so they DIDN"T have to control it...

It's a society based AP... so as long as your Orcs and such keep your pillaging out of Brevoy... they'll be fine with it. Giving away land they weren't using anyway was all a political maneuver anyway. The River kingdoms wouldn't be happy with this.. .but they're pretty big on 'freedoms' and 'keep what you hold' anyway...

The AP doesn't sound ruined yet. it will just be VERY... VERY differnet then ours....

Dark Archive

I thought that was a good laugh. Until I read the inappropriate touching part. That went too far for me. Odd how KM is sandbox but burning down the post and killing Oleg & Svetlana had me thinking they jumped off the rails as soon as possible.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Bah! Its all b@**#!+%! Never happened:-)


Eh, not the first instance I've encountered of new players trying to play the game like it's Saint's Row or GTA. I can totally believe an entire party of new players immediately killing everyone at Oleg's.

They could totally become the new bandit kings of the Stolen Lands. They'll have a harder time from a lack of allies (like, they won't get the initial nest egg from Brevoy to get the kingdom started), but also have an easier time from not giving a damn about their populace.

Grand Lodge

Orfamay Quest wrote:


Way of the Wicked starts with the players imprisoned for some heinous crime and under sentence of death. Yes, I know, that's technically a spoiler, but I'm literally spoiling the rising of the curtain. (On a similar note,.... did you know that Planet of the Apes has simians in it? And Star Wars is set partially in space?)

Dear God...

As to the OP, you've got a pack of rabid CE murder hoboes. Sit down, ask them what kind of campaign they're expecting. If you try accommodating and they wreck that as well, tell them you're not an unfeeling CPU of a computer, that you want to extract some enjoyment out of this as well, and that you don't have the time for asinine crap like what they're pulling.


Orthos wrote:


I definitely recommend ditching Kingmaker and swerving into Way of the Wicked, if that's the way you and your players want to go.

Way of the Wicked is one of the least friendly adventures for trigger-happy murderhobos. Subtlety, social interactions and careful planning are absolutely vital there, because for about a third of the path you run special operations, and for the rest of it gathering minions and allies is immensely beneficial. Only in the final adventure you can go wild because your final victory score is inconsequential (that is, assuming your GM does not change that, because it is clearly supposed to matter whether you've ruled as enlightened despots and made the country stronger than it ever was, or ran it into the ground, except it doesn't change the actual final fight at all).


I suppose it's too late to ask to join your adventuring company...


Presuming the OP didn't give it up already, I'm curious if the option to just run with it and have fun was taken up.

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