Resolve Bullet vs Deflect Arrows


Advice


Playing last night my cohort made the bet that my character could not hit her character with a shot from my gun. I took the bet, and took the shot and he used deflect arrows.

As far as I can tell, by RAW the attack is still a hit, but just didnt do any damage. It certainly wasn't a miss by the RAW.

However that isn't really what I want to discuss. The RUI is what I'd like to speculate on. With the deflect arrows feat you have to stop a bullet by putting your hand in the way to stop/deflect.

Did it hit and just do damage that was insignifigant enough to deal damage? Did it miss because it was turned aside? Is it like attacking something in motion and you hitting it before it hits you?

Me - Personally... I prefer considering it a hit still and even having it dent armor or draw blood a little bit. I like to live in a more gritty world where this sort of stuff happens. Where a Fireball still singes the Rogue who took no damage and blackened and his hair singed.

That is what I like, but I would like to hear some counter-thoughts and some variance on the idea. I'm very interestd if somebody has an opposing thought that may modify or outright change my theory. Thanks in advance


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I see deflect arrows as a parry type action with the free hand as the arrow is about to hit. So instead of the broadhead of the arrow making any contact, you swat the shaft and the whole thing goes flying aside.

As to deflecting a bullet with the feat? The book says yes you can.

I'd say that you "hit" but he was able to deflect the attack. It doesn't make a miss, but no damage.

As far as a storytelling point, I'd call it a miss, but not because you didn't shoot accurately.


Dragonstar (a futuristic D&D setting that is old, 3.0 old if memory serves) had monks get the "dodge bullet" ability which simply avoided bullets. It didn't kick in until level 4 while deflect arrows was level 2 (memories are hazy so I could be wrong) and went with the ruling that bullets were not arrows.

Alternatively, your bullet-catcher can wear gloves with thick steel palms, the average bullet carries slightly less force than the "kick" of your handgun/rifle and could, in fact, be caught if it wasn't fracturing and punching a hole in whatever you were catching it with.

RAW was covered already. And for RAI I have no idea.


It would count as a hit story-wise. If the cohort had said you couldn't hurt him with a bullet or that he could knock it aside (not just dodge it or be missed) then he'd have a case. Even though it did no damage, it still hit him (story-wise). That's for if there were a wager going on in character.

Just like if the cohort was a werewolf with Damage Reduction and took the bullet to the chest and took no damage.

Just like if you were shooting at Superman and the bullet just deflected off his chest. It still hit him.

Rules-wise, most things that trigger on a 'hit' wouldn't affect the target, say flaming damage or channeled spells cast through the bullet, knockdown effects, or whatever. Technically if you had an ability that granted you say a +1 to hit a target you've previously hit, then deflecting the attack would prevent your bonus on your next attack.

Story-wise however... the bullet connected with his hand, whether it's because he stuck his hand in the way or you just preternaturally aimed with uncanny skill at a spot you knew his hand would be at that precise moment in space and time is something everyone else will just have to wonder.

As for how you want to describe it, whether you say the deflector feels a slap of pain as he knocks it aside or that an evading rogue smells his mustache hairs burning, as long as it doesn't really affect the PC you should be fine. If there's a scrape of blood it doesn't even do a hit point of damage (or risk poisoning), the rogue doesn't actually lose his mustache, etc.


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Per the FAQ Deflect Arrows does not cause attacks to miss (and so abilities that are triggered on a miss, such as Snake Fang, do not proc).

But neither are they a hit. They are deflected.

The bullet wouldn't do ANYTHING to him, per RAW, RAI, or story. He would simply slap the bullet aside with no ill effects whatsoever.


Rynjin wrote:

Per the FAQ Deflect Arrows does not cause attacks to miss (and so abilities that are triggered on a miss, such as Snake Fang, do not proc).

But neither are they a hit. They are deflected.

The bullet wouldn't do ANYTHING to him, per RAW, RAI, or story. He would simply slap the bullet aside with no ill effects whatsoever.

That's how I see it as well.


Rynjin wrote:

Per the FAQ Deflect Arrows does not cause attacks to miss (and so abilities that are triggered on a miss, such as Snake Fang, do not proc).

But neither are they a hit. They are deflected.

The bullet wouldn't do ANYTHING to him, per RAW, RAI, or story. He would simply slap the bullet aside with no ill effects whatsoever.

You wouldn't think there would be some... cut... or damage done to the hand? Maybe not sufficient damage to be considered... damage, but... no marking at all? Sure no ill effect, but some remnant? I mean... if it was an arrow.. maybe because one end does the damage, but a bullet is pretty much all damage dealing power based on the muzzle velocity.


You're thinking real-world physics on something that is complete fantasy. You might as well ask how well the bullet holds together when the average all-lead bullet basically shatters on impact of anything hard enough to change its trajectory. Or what happens when it does shatter.


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next time shoot twice ;)


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TheJayde wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Per the FAQ Deflect Arrows does not cause attacks to miss (and so abilities that are triggered on a miss, such as Snake Fang, do not proc).

But neither are they a hit. They are deflected.

The bullet wouldn't do ANYTHING to him, per RAW, RAI, or story. He would simply slap the bullet aside with no ill effects whatsoever.

You wouldn't think there would be some... cut... or damage done to the hand? Maybe not sufficient damage to be considered... damage, but... no marking at all? Sure no ill effect, but some remnant? I mean... if it was an arrow.. maybe because one end does the damage, but a bullet is pretty much all damage dealing power based on the muzzle velocity.

No. I don't.

I don't know why you're so hung up on the fact that the class whose fists transcend the damage dealing capabilities of many weapons isn't harmed when deflecting your puny bullet.


Lynk wrote:
next time shoot twice ;)

I tried that too... but one of the attacks missed.

Rynjin wrote:


No. I don't.

I don't know why you're so hung up on the fact that the class whose fists transcend the damage dealing capabilities of many weapons isn't harmed when deflecting your puny bullet.

I'm hung up on the idea that... any class including the mage who has no martial combat education beyond improved unarmed strike and a Dex of 13 can take it.

Its not a monk class feature. Its a feat.


Whatever. It's an ability that explicitly lets them take no harm from fired projectiles. Not sure what the issue here is.


Well, the physics in the game world are different than in the real world. Characters can dodge bullets simply by having a Touch AC above 10 (and the attack missing with a roll above 10) . . . no Feats needed.


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I'd say you were moving and they didn't aim where you were. Then again, with the snatch arrows feat, you can CATCH a bullet for no harm. Hows that for being a magician.


People in fantasy games can often do things that no real human can do. And that's okay. Don't get hung up on what's "realistic", it's not a realistic game. Especially not once you get past around fifth level.


As long as there is no mechanical issue attached then I'd say it doesn't matter and could even change from event to event.

One bullet he swats away with a hand, the next he ducks out of the way of, a third he feints and causes the gunner to shoot wide- whatever fluff you like. If they are using a weapon at all (say a 1h in the other hand) you could even fluff they split the bullet or swat it away with the weapon.

-S


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Load up with pellet shot the next time.


boring7 wrote:
You're thinking real-world physics on something that is complete fantasy. You might as well ask how well the bullet holds together when the average all-lead bullet basically shatters on impact of anything hard enough to change its trajectory. Or what happens when it does shatter.

I'm a little late to this party, but as for the most part physics and 'reality' bend in FAVOR of bullets for some insane reason in PF, "Because of bonuses my non-magic bullet can totally annihilate this ancient dragon but can't penetrate this wooden table!" that when it comes to deflect arrows slapping away bullets with no harm, well, it has to just suck it up and deal with it :)

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