Efficient Quiver Just for Arrows?


Rules Questions

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LazarX wrote:
OldSkoolRPG wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
I think the quiver's great for wizards--holds sixty wands (arrow-sized), 18 rods or scroll cases (javelin-sized), and 6 staffs (bow-sized) in one handy compartment within easy reach of themselves, their familiar, or an unseen servant spell to retrieve.
I think the item is arguably more useful for a wizard than an archer lol.
Your archers must not find themselves in a great variety of situations. They must never climb, must never be in a situation where they might have to hide their bows. ( a lot easier to do with an efficient quiver), and they obviously never carry backups. My huntress carries durable arrows of several types in the arrow portion, a spare bow, sometimes both in the bow/staff portion, and she has a couple of magic and ordinary javelins in the javelin section, which she can hurl while climbing if need be.

I think the point was that how many archers have MULTIPLE different bows. Now compare that to the people that might carry multiple STAVES. All you pointed out was why having a space for ONE bow was fifty, not 6. There's just plain more use for multiple staves [or wands/rods if you rule they fit].

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
havoc xiii wrote:
Im just curious...what would happen if you "tried" to put arrows in the other spaces? I mean they would actually "fit" or would the now intelligent quiver say "No way your not putting your filthy arrows in my pristine staff slot."?

According to RAW, either way is a valid GM call. (the most hated words for a rules lawyer)

Silver Crusade

I've always seen it as three compartments, each sub-divided into smaller compartments that can hold one item each. So, one compartment with sixty sub-compartments that can hold something roughly arrow sized and shaped (like arrows, wands, quarrels), a second compartment with eighteen sub-compartments that can each hold one item that is roughly javelin sized and shaped (like javelins, rods), and one compartment that has six sub-compartments that can each hold a single item that is roughly bow sized/shaped (bows, staves, spears).

However, whichever way it works, then that's the way it works! People will exploit it's foibles, whatever those foibles are.

For example, if you hollowed out an arrow and put six slim gold rods inside, then glued it together again, would the quiver somehow know that there was more to this arrow than meets the eye, and refuse to take it? Of course not! That would be absurd! It's a hollowed out arrow, of course it's the same size and shape as an arrow!

Imagine it had a compartment that could hold one suitcase. Would it fail to work unless the suitcase was empty?

Given that logic, people with access to this item would start to use their ingenuity. Soon, hollowed out staves which could hold specially made grooming kits, survival kits, trail rations...anything they could think of, would be specially made to fit into these quivers.

And one of these staff-shaped hollow items would be specially made to hold several arrows.


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I would dare say this may be even more useful for a BARD than it would be for a wizard OR archer. Not only can the bard keep their arrows and bow in it, but also musical instruments! And wands...staves...rods.


OldSkoolRPG wrote:


I think you are misinterpreting the RAW here. The main compartment can hold "up to" 60 items of the same shape and size of an arrow. 60 arrows is given as a comparison to the maximum shape and volume that it will hold not as the absolute necessary size and shape.

That means it can hold one item the size of a pencil, one item the same same size and shape of an arrow, one item the size and shape of 60 arrows all the way up to 60 items the same size and shape as an arrow and everything in between. Anything that is roughly equivalent in size and weight to 60 arrows will fit. The same is true of the other compartments as well.

Okay two things, 1) this is so clearly correct! 2) Is there really a group of GMs out there policing the compartments of the Efficient Quiver at the PFS or the standard table. Stop it!.

This is clearly not a real problem except for in very very very isolated cases at a Pathfinder table with a ultra-conservative & micro-managing GM. Thus, it is hardly worth the thread.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
David knott 242 wrote:

Are there any examples of a container being unable to hold objects smaller than those that it is intended to hold?

A sieve. A mesh live-bag for fish.


SlimGauge wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Are there any examples of a container being unable to hold objects smaller than those that it is intended to hold?

A sieve. A mesh live-bag for fish.

Armor.


Voadam wrote:
SlimGauge wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Are there any examples of a container being unable to hold objects smaller than those that it is intended to hold?

A sieve. A mesh live-bag for fish.
Armor.

depends--you can certainly hide INSIDE a suit of armor if you're small enough, but good luck moving it.


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Cats in boxes.

There are entire websites devoted to it.


An ammunition clip for a gun won't work with smaller ammunition than is intended.

The quiver has specific slots for size and shape and works to pop them out as if from a normal quiver or scabbard instead of the normal move action for drawing from a container.

Liberty's Edge

Driver_325yards wrote:

This is clearly not a real problem except for in very very very isolated cases at a Pathfinder table with a ultra-conservative & micro-managing GM. Thus, it is hardly worth the thread.

Well, as I mentioned in the original post, normally I see folks play that you can use all three of an Efficient Quiver's compartments to hold arrows. I've played with many different people over the years in many different groups.

Comments like "This is clearly not a real problem except for in very very very isolated cases" and "It is hardly worth the thread" are a bit dismissive and needlessly insulting, not to mention not all that helpful, don't you think? A number of people have clicked the FAQ, so clearly others also feel this is worthy of some official clarification.


That Crazy Alchemist wrote:
graystone wrote:

Their are several instances of a collection of items listed as a single item[look at any kit] so it's disingenuous to say that because the game doesn't list a certain collecting it doesn't work. It all boils down to what the ending size and shape is. That ends up being an agreement between the item's owner and the DM.

Myself, I could see several arrows lined up and bundled to get around the right size/shape. javelins are 6+ feet long and arrows are 22" long, so you take 3 bundles of 6 arrows and lay them end to end. Add thin branch/wire/ect through bindings then wrap it with a cloth. 18 then come out fairly close to a javelin.

But that's just me. I'm not overly nitpicky. Though I wouldn't have left the rods go unless it was an overly large one. They are normally 2-3' long, so you'd have to tie 2-3 together to get it around the same size/shape. Now it's close to an arrows size/shape... What's odd is the last section. It fits staves and those can be as small as 4' making the bow section able to accept smaller items.

You are right there are several instances where a collection of items is listed as a single item. A bundle of arrows is not one of them. Simply tying items together does not turn it into a singular item unless as a special case that that grouping of items exists in the rules as a singular item.

A quiver of 20 arrows is how arrows are sold and given stats. A quiver of arrows weighs 3 lbs. and costs 1 gp. There is no listing for a single arrow.

A quiver of arrows is the same weight as an unstrung bow but definitely not the same size and shape as one. They are too wide to fit in the compartment slot. I wouldn't let a quiver of arrows be shoved inside any of the subcompartments of an efficient quiver.


Voadam wrote:
The quiver has specific slots for size and shape and works to pop them out as if from a normal quiver or scabbard instead of the normal move action for drawing from a container.

Not quite:

Efficient Quiver wrote:
This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible.

Each compartment has one single extradimensional space of sufficient size and volume to hold the mentioned items. The compartments don't contain individual slots for each arrow, javelin or staff.


Voadam wrote:


A quiver of 20 arrows is how arrows are sold and given stats. A quiver of arrows weighs 3 lbs. and costs 1 gp. There is no listing for a single arrow.

A quiver of arrows is the same weight as an unstrung bow but definitely not the same size and shape as one. They are too wide to fit in the compartment slot. I wouldn't let a quiver of arrows be shoved inside any of the subcompartments of an efficient quiver.

But the compartment for bows is a single extradimensional space that can hold 6 bows. Which should be more than wide enough for a quiver of arrows.


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Voadam wrote:

An ammunition clip for a gun won't work with smaller ammunition than is intended.

The quiver has specific slots for size and shape and works to pop them out as if from a normal quiver or scabbard instead of the normal move action for drawing from a container.

A gun is a precision machine. A quiver is a cone made out of leather.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
SlimGauge wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Are there any examples of a container being unable to hold objects smaller than those that it is intended to hold?

A sieve. A mesh live-bag for fish.

But that is a special sort of container that is deliberately designed to hold things of a certain size and let smaller things slip through.

And armor worn by somebody much smaller than it was designed for would have much in common with an arrow in one of the larger compartments of an Efficient Quiver. That person does technically fit inside the armor but cannot benefit from its protection because of the extreme size mismatch. Similarly, an arrow in the wrong compartment of an Efficient Quiver would move around more than it should and possibly be difficult to reach -- but there is no question that it should fit inside.


Marc Radle wrote:

Alchemist, you clearly have a strong opinion on this, and that's cool, but let's try not to let this thread devolve into back and forth arguing.

Remember, the original question wasa) how does everyone else handle this, and b) has there ever been any kind of official ruling on this one way or the other? Not, who is right and who is wrong, OK?

Once again, PLEASE click the FAQ link so we can all hopefully get some clarification

Thanks!

This is not worth a FAQ. I generally hit FAQ just about whenever someone ask me too, but I just don't see why here.

Yes, people can find issue to disagree on just about any Pathfinder subject. That said, is this really a worthy issue? Are there a significant number of GMs out there micromanaging the Efficient Quiver? Is this Efficient Quiver ruling going to be game breaking one way or the other?

Okay, so what, I might run into the extremely occasional GM who is counting my arrows and says that it looks like I used up the 60 in the main compartment and makes me reload it and not draw freely from the other compartments. I think he would be wrong, but would not care. I would simply reload and move on.

There also might be the extremely occasional GM that is ultra specific about what goes into the compartments. He would be wrong, but so what, I would just get an handy haversack.

Point is, it is just not a question that is even worth answering even if a million people hit the FAQ.


OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Voadam wrote:


A quiver of arrows is the same weight as an unstrung bow but definitely not the same size and shape as one. They are too wide to fit in the compartment slot. I wouldn't let a quiver of arrows be shoved inside any of the subcompartments of an efficient quiver.
But the compartment for bows is a single extradimensional space that can hold 6 bows. Which should be more than wide enough for a quiver of arrows.

The efficient quiver portion's opening that you would shove the quiver into is narrower than the narrowest part of the normal quiver. So even if it could fit inside the nondimensional space inside you couldn't get it into there without first shrinking the normal quiver.

As for the nondimensional space I think of it a bit like a gold bag. A golf bag could hold unstrung bows in its slots for golf clubs. They are about the right diameter to fit. You can not, however, shove a quiver of arrows in any of the golf club slots, a quiver is too wide to fit. The quiver is not the right size or shape.

If the nondimensional space simply held them in a barrel sytle space it would probably be wide enough to hold a quiver. But if it is six unstrung bows held side by side like in a gun cabinet or like bullets in a clip then the width of the quiver does not fit in their space.

We know the quiver does not hold things based on weight.

"The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as 6 objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staves, or the like)."

The quiver can hold six bows, or six staves, or six spears or any combination mixed and matched.

It can hold six spears. It can not hold seven bows.

A bow weighs three pounds, a spear weighs six pounds.

Six bows = 18 lbs. Seven bows = 21 lbs.

Six spears = 36 pounds.

The efficient quiver's nondimensional space holds things based on size and shape with number limits for individual items held.

This is different from the nondimensional spaces in bags of holding and handy haversacks that do hold things based on volume and weight.

Liberty's Edge

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Driver_325yards wrote:

This is not worth a FAQ. I generally hit FAQ just about whenever someone ask me too, but I just don't see why here.

Point is, it is just not a question that is even worth answering even if a million people hit the FAQ.

I'd argue if a million people hit the FAQ button, then that topic kind of IS worth answering, unless your 1 voice/opinion is somehow more important than those other million.

In any case, you've expressed your opinion, so thanks for that. Other folks clearly don't agree and feel the question might be worth some clarification.


Wikipedia states: "Arrow sizes vary greatly across cultures, ranging from eighteen inches to five feet (45 cm to 150 cm). However, most modern arrows are 75 centimetres (30 in) to 96 centimetres (38 in); most war arrows from an English ship sunk in 1545 were 76 centimetres (30 in)."

So a minimum of 1.5' to a max of 5', with modern ones 2.5' to 3.16'.

Since small character's weapons weigh 1/2 that for medium characters, that makes the weapons about 60% as long (and wide and tall) as regular weapons. Thus minimum arrow size is 11.34 inches. Still longer than modern day pencils, but not by much.

The fey argument means that this item was also used by small fey.

According to this most bows range from 48" t 72". Apply small size, and the lower number becomes 30". A shortbow is 3 feet, so a small sized one is 23 inches long.

The Hanbo is described as:
"The hanbo is a staff less than a yard long, often carved to look like a walking stick." That is 36 inches, or small sized 23 inches. Magical staffs can be from 4 to 7 feet.

Javelin is described as A javelin is a thin throwing spear, so it is the same as a spear. The Pilum (Roman javelin) was usually 6'7" (79") long. Wikipedia lists some ancient javelins at 1.83 and 2.25 meters long (72" to 89") [small: 45"]

So:
Arrow size: 12" to 60"
Javelin size: 45" to 89"
Bow/Staff size: 23" to 84"

Wands: A wand is 6 to 12 inches long
Sure looks arrow sized to me.

Rods: range from 2 feet to 3 feet long
Sure looks like bow or staff sized.

My take:
60 things like arrows
18 things up to javelin size
6 things up to bow/staff size

You cannot hold more that 60+18+6 things. I would allow a "bundle" as a single thing, but it would be stowed and retrieved as a "bundle". The resulting "bundle" must also be sized for the slot it goes in. I come to this by thinking the opening to the slot limits the cross section of the object, but not the length. The magic also limits the number, so you cannot gain by more of a smaller thing.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

Unlike in real life, there is no game mechanic that requires (or rewards) you for unstringing your bow. Nothing in the description of this magical quiver requires a bow to be unstrung before it can be stored.

Think of the shape and size of a strung bow. According to the description of the quiver, not only does that strung bow fit into the neck of the quiver, it also assumes that a strung bow and a straight stick quarterstaff are similar enough in shape that they fit into the same compartment.

Given this, the idea that a wand cannot fit into the arrow compartment is absurd.


Marc Radle wrote:

This seems like a good time to jump in with ...

Please be sure to click FAQ if you haven't already:)

Maybe we can get this answered once and for all!

I start asking myself if it is really a good idea to ask for FAQs. Most of them aren't really good, you know.

In this case the answer could be that bolts are not of the general shape of arrows or that it doesn't work for shortbow arrows. Or that it never was meant to hold magical stuff. Like should have been known by everyone.

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