Goblin Squad Member
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For a couple hondos of xp you too can heal yourself. PvP is easy to test, so let's rack up those player killer achievements. Make sure you got good resistances, attack til you're half dead, switch to self healin' til you're back to full then go back on the offensive!
So why haven't you trained in a divine focus yet?
I challenge anyone who can't heal right now to bring it!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was too lazy to explore this option and how it truly works.
I thought about it but never actually looked into which items/feats etc. I need at minimum to make it work. I guess it only would have been an hour or so real time to look at spreadsheets, rules, work it out - but not being a cleric I never invested this time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does this work for a greatsword/longbow wielding gatherer?
Which item is needed? (not in my game to look it up)
Or is it better to use tokens and in this case what is needed to use the tokens for healing that go in 7 or 8? Or are they not yet implemented?
At least a great start to experiment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When wielding a Greatsword or Longbow, it should not be possible to put anything in your off-hand.Don't think he meant 'off hand'. You put the focus in your secondary on-hand and use ~ to swap weapons.
Perhaps...
Everyone can (nay, SHOULD!) do this.
I think a large number of players will choose to be able to swap between, for example, Greatsword and Longbow. Or, like me, between Staff and Wand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've seen Haagen in action. He's a suicidal dwarf and he can run into a group of mobs that would take me down in seconds, kill them all and come out with almost full health.
Ok, it probably doesn't help that I am staying in character and wearing leather armour as a rogue, but I am still impressed by his cleric build, particularly against undead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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130 xp for an invaluable option in combat especially at Tier 1.
Players will find neither melee nor ranged attacks will take down someone who is self healing half the time and attacking the other half, at least not for the first month of EE anyway.
I challenge everyone to try it and post the results.
What's your player killer rank and how'd you achieve it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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130 xp for an invaluable option in combat especially at Tier 1.
Players will find neither melee nor ranged attacks will take down someone who is self healing half the time and attacking the other half, at least not for the first month of EE anyway.
I challenge everyone to try it and post the results.
What's your player killer rank and how'd you achieve it?
I'll try to meet up with you with a Level 1 Wizard somewhere and see how it works out. You're up at Stoneroot, I assume?
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Another POV.
Healing in combat can help save your life or a friends but in situations where you are equally matched spending power to heal, you restore less health (50 health) per power point than the enemy is doing to you for their attacks (Generally between 60-250).
Once you buy a 1st level heal spell this situation changes dramatically as it heals significantly more but you will still be spending 3 global cooldowns worth of actions just to switch to the focus, heal, and back again. You might say "Well just use your focus attacks to save time after you heal," but the problem with that is all spell provoke opportunity which opens you up for stuns, slows, and the like.
All this is not to mention having to manually retarget yourself, and then back to the enemy again or the fact that if you heal someone else they will be likely to start attacking you immediately due to the beneficial autotargeting bug at the moment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll try to meet up with you with a Level 1 Wizard somewhere and see how it works out. You're up at Stoneroot, I assume?
Aye. Let's fight over a tower. Plenty of them with open windows thanks to a few non affiliated companies I won't mention by name here.
I won't use Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Inspiring Word, Shield of Faith, etc.
Better test would be if I brought a 1st level commoner with a club and a wand. I have one in Thornkeep weaving right now but I can build another in Rathglen if anyone wants to tangle there. Reputation or no. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another POV.
Healing in combat can help save your life or a friends but in situations where you are equally matched spending power to heal, you restore less health (50 health) per power point than the enemy is doing to you for their attacks (Generally between 60-250).
Don't forget to take into account resistances. I have Physical Resist 41 at Tier 1 alone. Show me who's doing 250 with Tier 1. Either way they're risking good gear, and if you CAN'T dish out and resist damage on an even footing with your opponent to begin with then healing or no healing won't matter anyway. Don't have much advice for anyone if you can't win either way, do you?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Drop dead enough and you'll lose both your axe and your longbow!True, that is why I make it a priority for the OTHER guy(s) to drop dead first; have you seen the damage output an axe and longbow fighter properly geared and trained can dish out? :)
Something tells me the axe is the junior partner in that damage distribution.
I still wonder whether there's going to be a balancing pass between longbow and short bow. Right now, the longbow has some serious advantages over its shorter counterpart.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Been waiting all day Nihimon.
I can't do the math yet but I have faith that ymmv with the efficiency of healing a consistant amount of 50 hit points versus the variable amount of damage one sees based on resistances, df/s, armor and saves.
If you can even it out so that your opponent cannot do more than 50 damage to you at the same rate then that 130 xp could save your life.
Join me, praise the gods and make this small investment into the Divine! The day of judgement shall come my brothers and sisters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very sorry if I misled you, but I live in Texas and I have a job, so I won't be in-game for a couple of hours at least (wife and kid get dibs on my time when I get home).
Sorry, assumed incorrectly that your message board posting times equaled free game time.
I'm on and off here and there so just PM in game whenever you can. I'm itchin' for a fight!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Whether Minor Cure can keep you up against someone's dps (assuming no interrupts/stuns/knockdowns) depends on how your stats match up against theirs.
Against a T2/T3 weapon I'd say it's pretty unlikely to work outside of very rare matchups. T1 ... maybe in the right setup.
If a fight is dragging on long enough that you're considering healing then what matters most for an ability is not its casting time, but rather its stamina cost. Time is money stamina. So outhealing their dps means that the healing done per stamina must be more than their average damage per stamina.
Minor Cure is 50 hp for 24 stamina. (Likely to scale with hp later, though I don't know by how much.) That's just over 2 hp/stamina ... which is mid to low end for T1 (though that very much depends on how stats match up between attacker and defender). If the target is spamming primaries and your resistance isn't high against that damage type then you won't outheal it. If they're using less stamina efficient secondaries as their goto dps or your resistance is sufficiently high* then maybe.
*Due to the huge number of possible combinations I'd ballpark this in the ~15 range, though I'd advise against taking 15 as a rule of thumb.
And as has been mentioned if they are interrupting/stunning/knocking down then the odds of outhealing are much slimmer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The level 1 holy symbol lesser cure for 350 HP is way more effective.
Just do not count on heals to always save you, if you are tripped, stunned, interrupted etc it may not fire off.
Well you do have to find it as a drop, and if everyone started using it the damn thing would cost a fortune! Minor cure is something every player can and should invest 130 xp in. Do it for the gods!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If th OP strategy works in any respect, there is a serious issue with combat balance. You should never be your own in-combat dedicated healer. The only type of self in-combat healing should be single combat use things like Augment.
It was annoying as hell during that first pvp event to have half of the people take 50% damage, then turn tail and run away healing.
I would say, for the time being, minor cure, and all heals should provoke opprotunity and be stationary. Once ranged rooting is gone, and these people can be chased down and cc'd more than they can remove, then it can be changed back.
Yes, this impacts PvE, but as much as I like using full-sprint circle-kiting with no use of cc, i dont want to see it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's just over 2 hp/stamina ... which is mid to low end for T1 (though that very much depends on how stats match up between attacker and defender).
Right, it very much depends on how stats match up. But the healing is always consistent, well except like you said with interrupts. But again, I'm assuming you can fight the opponents interrupts too.
Bottom line, if all is fair and equal between two opponents and one of them can outheal the opponent's DPS well then it's a no brainer no isn't it? With your spreadsheets and python who-si-whats-its aside, come on out and break in those focuses people. For those who've used it what do you think, eh?
With my resistances I'd like to see someone hitting me for 2 hp/stamina. I can reduce your damage dealin'; can you reduce my healin'?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say, for the time being, minor cure, and all heals should provoke opprotunity and be stationary. Once ranged rooting is gone, and these people can be chased down and cc'd more than they can remove, then it can be changed back.
Nerf the cures all you want, but for a wee little tithe everyone can and should learn how to pray and heal. That 130's not going to mean squat when you're saving up 20K for your next bonus a month down the line.
Go forth everyone and get yourself an idol of the divine!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Generally, and stated by Ryan a long time ago, if the community ever feels that a single feat is compulsory(aside from base things, like hp, power, defensive bonuses, etc.), it should just be given to everyone automatically, or it needs serious change.
So if you ever suggest that everyone buys a feat, it is either in dire need of change, or you are about to get your ass handed to you by someone who understands the game better and has a counter to your strategy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Generally, and stated by Ryan a long time ago, if the community ever feels that a single feat is compulsory(aside from base things, like hp, power, defensive bonuses, etc.), it should just be given to everyone automatically, or it needs serious change.
So if you ever suggest that everyone buys a feat, it is either in dire need of change, or you are about to get your ass handed to you by someone who understands the game better and has a counter to your strategy.
You know that sounds good in theory but does anyone not have their basic racial feats? Anyone not proficient with a club?
This ain't some high level do-dad I'm talkin' bout here. Pick up what the good lords gave you lads!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Racial bonuses and club proficiency have nothing to do with this. It is entirely about bad game design. You can't have a free-form system when every role is forced to dip into another role to remain competetive. It also leads to stagnation, when everyone is using the same combat strategy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Racial bonuses and club proficiency have nothing to do with this. It is entirely about bad game design. You can't have a free-form system when every role is forced to dip into another role to remain competetive. It also leads to stagnation, when everyone is using the same combat strategy.
My diminishing staff wielding whirlwinding longsword fighter acolyte holy symbol cleric takes offence :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Racial bonuses and club proficiency have nothing to do with this. It is entirely about bad game design. You can't have a free-form system when every role is forced to dip into another role to remain competetive. It also leads to stagnation, when everyone is using the same combat strategy.
Everyone dips into the role of a clubber, why not give the gods a try?
Aren't we all blessed of Pharasma mate? Don't be afraid to heal yourself, fighters, rogue and wizards!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Racial bonuses and club proficiency have nothing to do with this. It is entirely about bad game design. You can't have a free-form system when every role is forced to dip into another role to remain competetive. It also leads to stagnation, when everyone is using the same combat strategy.
In this particular case that isn't a worry. As I said above it might work against certain T1 opponents (less than you might think) and certainly not against T2 or T3 opponents. Bear in mind we're supposed to spend most of our time in T2.
This worry is all an artifact of us mostly experiencing low levels. Beyond T1 50 hp for 24 stamina will be very low and anyone trying to outheal their opponent's dps with Minor Cure will be asking to lose the fight. (This may change a little depending on how healing scales with hp, but unless it scales in a very significant way the above will still hold.)
There are also combinations of attacks which will work great together early in T1, but use wildly different keywords and will not sync at all in T3. As an example I played with a daze->stun staff build. Works great at low levels, but in T3 it will suck. Either the primaries to set up daze will not match their keywords and do very subpar dps or the stun secondaries will not match their keywords and the loss of effect power will mean their stun will not happen against an equal opponent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nobody dips into the role of clubber, it is base knowledge. If everyone needs to take lesser cure, it should also be base knowledge.
In order for there to be a "dip" xp has to be spent. You do not spend xp on your racial bonus, clothing armor proficiency, light armor proficiency, basic attacks, basic exploits, or club proficiency.
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Goblin Squad Member
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'Tis all about value per xp spent.
130, practically comes with your character. You'd be a fool not to do it!
Nightdrifter I love your programmin'. How much damage per stamina will a tier 3 player be doing to me when I have tier 3 armor and training? More than 2 per stamina? Can you explain it? A challenge of intelligence in search of wisdom!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nightdrifter, I know this particular case isn't a worry. The OP is mistaken in their assessment. The compulsion to take lesser cure is to revive allies, I think everyone I play with is has a focus in their inventory and lesser cure trained. I started a post on that over at the GW forums.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nightdrifter, I know this particular case isn't a worry. The OP is mistaken in their assessment. The compulsion to take lesser cure is to revive allies, I think everyone I play with is has a focus in their inventory and lesser cure trained. I started a post on that over at the GW forums.
Ah, so you admit it's invaluable to everyone. Another reason for praise to the gods!
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Goblin Squad Member
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How much damage per stamina will a tier 3 player be doing to me when I have tier 3 armor and training? More than 2 per stamina? Can you explain it?
It depends on the matchup (what your good resistances are, their weapon, attack choices, etc), but in the range of ~4-8.
The reason it is bigger in T3 vs T3 is that base damage increases faster than resistances, so final damage increases as opponents increase in power (hp increases as well).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another factor - When you're healing, you aren't attacking. Your current hp may or may not be dropping, but while you're healing yourself, your opponent's current hp is definitely not dropping.
Maybe alternating between Minor Cure and one of the attack orisons would be best.
Whether the 'Heal Thyself' strategy works or not, more PVP in Alpha means a better test of the associated game systems. When I get home, I'm up for a bout.
(Of course, calling for a one-on-one duel, then healing yourself while your allies with longbows hiding on the other side of a hill shoot your opponent, is bound to be a very successful strategy. Not to say that any of us would do this... But I'll bet it would work at least once before the target caught on.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the better 'dips' at the moment is to take a rogue feature for the sneak attacks (+10 base damage). If you use abilities which set up flat-footed or opportunity (for opportunist) then you're increasing your damage far more than most other features. It's comparable to higher end fighter features for the extra damage, but you only need to spend token xp to get access to sneak attack.
The only thing you give up by using a 'sneaky dip' is matching keywords on your expendables. Even then, use a normal feature and blow through your power and then swap to the rogue feature.
One thing about 'dipping': the devs are aware that there may be combos that are better than pure roles. That's the whole point of the as yet unknown dedication bonuses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, alrighty then :)
It was very good to learn first-hand (book knowledge can only take you so far) that Minor Cure does not Provoke Opportunity, and does not apply Stationary. Because of this it was exceedingly difficult to kill Haagen with just a Wand.
I think if I'd had a Staff, it would've been a different story, but I'll gladly admit that Haagen's strategy was vastly more successful than I'd expected it to be.
Kudos, and thanks for teaching me something :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, alrighty then :)
It was very good to learn first-hand (book knowledge can only take you so far) that Minor Cure does not Provoke Opportunity, and does not apply Stationary. Because of this it was exceedingly difficult to kill Haagen with just a Wand.
I think if I'd had a Staff, it would've been a different story, but I'll gladly admit that Haagen's strategy was vastly more successful than I'd expected it to be.
Kudos, and thanks for teaching me something :)
It is not unusual for wizzie types to carry two staff, a +2 diminishing and a +2 charged for example and just forget wands.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is not unusual for wizzie types to carry two staff, a +2 diminishing and a +2 charged for example and just forget wands.
This was a brand new character with just the starting 1,000 XP. No Armor and no Staff until Haagen gave me one of his.
I like to keep the Wand available for when I need to close, for example on Longbows, and not Provoke Opportunity myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Nihimon, you taught me a great deal too. Foul arcane magic! Those long range staff attacks make it tough to run for shelter and self healin'. My armor was no match for your non physical attacks so it was pretty easy for you to beat that 2 hp/stamina threshold today. Plus all those damn blasted stuns!