Can you stack Kapenia / Spell Dancer Magus Archetypes?


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

Is there any reason that an Elven Magus couldn't have Kapenia Dancer and Spell Dancer?

Kapenia Dancer (Link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/kapenia-dancer) removes your initial Armor Proficiencies but says nothing about what happens when you get Medium / Heavy Armor (So I'm assuming they wouldn't be 'touched' RAW and whether they bump down to Light / Medium or you just don't get light doesn't matter at the moment).

The Archetype doesn't 'lose' any other Magus features, but instead gains a Free Feat and expanded Arcana Options.

Spell Dancer (Elf) (Link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/spell-dancer-magus-elf) changes Magus Class Skills, modifies the Magus's level 1 Arcane Pool spending, replaces the 5th level Feat and the important thing: Replaces Medium and Heavy Armor features with Insight Bonuses to AC.

It seems these would fit nicely together and give the Kapenia Dancer an AC comparable with other Magi.

Thoughts?


The Kapenia Dancer is poorly written, trying to make anything with them will be problematic for PFS as they are going to get table variance. The fact that the archetype seems to be just an incomplete copy of Kensai rubs in how it was either poorly edited or trimmed back for space considerations.

The archetypes do look like would be legal to mix, and most GMs would probably be okay with it as they don't combine in any particularly obscene way.

I'm not sure Kapenia gives enough to make up for the reduced spell casting though and it forces the Magus to specialize in a rather limiting weapon. Magi like crits - a kapenia is using a weapon that is about as crit useless as it is possible to be.

Grand Lodge

No, they are not compatible. They both alter "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" so both archetypes cannot be chosen.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
claudekennilol wrote:
No, they are not compatible. They both alter "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" so both archetypes cannot be chosen.

No, the Elf Spell Dancer does not alter the initial armor and weapon proficiencies in any way.

It actually appears that the two archetypes are compatible barring errata that actually causes the medium and heavy armor proficiencies gained later to be modified directly by the Kapenia Dancer archetype.

Grand Lodge

David knott 242 wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
No, they are not compatible. They both alter "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" so both archetypes cannot be chosen.

No, the Elf Spell Dancer does not alter the initial armor and weapon proficiencies in any way.

It actually appears that the two archetypes are compatible barring errata that actually causes the medium and heavy armor proficiencies gained later to be modified directly by the Kapenia Dancer archetype.

Unless the OP linked the wrong thing it does.

Quote:
A bladed scarf dancer is proficient in simple weapons and bladed scarves. Additionally, a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon. A bladed scarf dancer is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers the normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored.

That looks like it's altering weapon proficiencies to me.

Grand Lodge

claudekennilol wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
No, they are not compatible. They both alter "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" so both archetypes cannot be chosen.

No, the Elf Spell Dancer does not alter the initial armor and weapon proficiencies in any way.

It actually appears that the two archetypes are compatible barring errata that actually causes the medium and heavy armor proficiencies gained later to be modified directly by the Kapenia Dancer archetype.

Unless the OP linked the wrong thing it does.

Quote:
A bladed scarf dancer is proficient in simple weapons and bladed scarves. Additionally, a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon. A bladed scarf dancer is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers the normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored.
That looks like it's altering weapon proficiencies to me.

The kapenia dancer does, the Spell Dancer doesn't (it replaces the Medium Armor and Heavy Armor class features, which for the Magus are separate from their base proficiencies).


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Mighty Squash wrote:
I'm not sure Kapenia gives enough to make up for the reduced spell casting though and it forces the Magus to specialize in a rather limiting weapon. Magi like crits - a kapenia is using a weapon that is about as crit useless as it is possible to be.

Magi may like crits, but that's hardly their only trick. If using spells that don't deal HP damage, ie. Touch of Idiocy, then crit range doesn't matter. That's the rub with Magi that deal with weapons without high crit ranges like the Myrmidarch and their ranged weapon, the Shield Magus with his shield, the Card Caster with his thrown weapons, Kapenia with their scarf, etc. You need to get away from the paradigm of "shocking grasp + scimitar = zomgwtfbbq" and explore other options for the class.

Grand Lodge

Jeff Merola wrote:
The kapenia dancer does, the Spell Dancer doesn't (it replaces the Medium Armor and Heavy Armor class features, which for the Magus are separate from their base proficiencies).

You're right, the second poster said "kensai" so I started comparing the spell dancer to the kensai which don't stack. But looking back at what the OP is specifically asking. There's nothing in there that alters the same class ability, from what I can see. Gaining magus arcana from an archetype doesn't preclude you from using other archetypes that alter the arcana class feature.

Shadow Lodge

claudekennilol wrote:
No, they are not compatible. They both alter "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" so both archetypes cannot be chosen.

Could you expand on this? Only Kapenia Dancer appears to modify "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" section, while Spell Dancer replaces the 2 Magus Features "Medium Armor" and "Heavy Armor"

Grand Lodge

Harliquinn Whiteshadow wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
No, they are not compatible. They both alter "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" so both archetypes cannot be chosen.
Could you expand on this? Only Kapenia Dancer appears to modify "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" section, while Spell Dancer replaces the 2 Magus Features "Medium Armor" and "Heavy Armor"

See above, I was comparing the wrong two classes.

Shadow Lodge

Cool thanks all. I think it could be interesting to stack the two archetypes for an upcoming character. I may combine with Hexcrafter as well for Hex goodness.


Kazaan wrote:
Magi may like crits, but that's hardly their only trick. If using spells that don't deal HP damage, ie. Touch of Idiocy, then crit range doesn't matter. That's the rub with Magi that deal with weapons without high crit ranges like the Myrmidarch and their ranged weapon, the Shield Magus with his shield, the Card Caster with his thrown weapons, Kapenia with their scarf, etc. You need to get away from the paradigm of "shocking grasp + scimitar = zomgwtfbbq" and explore other options for the class.

Yes, Magi have a lot of other tricks. But Kapenia Dancer gives up too much for what little it gives in return.

You can survive being specialized in a terrible weapon, but also having reduced spell casting and no armour canny defense while getting very little back makes them difficult to play.
I say this as someone who is playing one.
Once the novelty wears off you'll find Kapenia is one of the more limiting Magus archetypes regardless of game play approach. Mixing it with Spell Dancer will remove a couple of the archetype's faults, but is still probably inferior to just playing a Spell Dancer.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
claudekennilol wrote:
Harliquinn Whiteshadow wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
No, they are not compatible. They both alter "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" so both archetypes cannot be chosen.
Could you expand on this? Only Kapenia Dancer appears to modify "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" section, while Spell Dancer replaces the 2 Magus Features "Medium Armor" and "Heavy Armor"
See above, I was comparing the wrong two classes.

Both archetypes are modifying armor proficiency class features, the fact that they do so in different ways, is irrelevant.


LazarX wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Harliquinn Whiteshadow wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
No, they are not compatible. They both alter "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" so both archetypes cannot be chosen.
Could you expand on this? Only Kapenia Dancer appears to modify "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" section, while Spell Dancer replaces the 2 Magus Features "Medium Armor" and "Heavy Armor"
See above, I was comparing the wrong two classes.
Both archetypes are modifying armor proficiency class features, the fact that they do so in different ways, is irrelevant.

No. One is modifying Weapon and Armor Proficiencies. The other is modifying class features gained at levels 7 and 13 that happen to be named Medium Armor Training and Heavy Armor Training.


Its all just poorly worded. The small books are often screwed up regarding exact wording and rule consistency. In this case, it seems obvious they intended the Kapenia Dancer to be armorless, and the armor capability is replaced with the Canny Defense. What they did not do is include, in the description of 'Canny Defense', that it replaces the Medium Armor and Heavy Armor abilities.

If you rule that it genuinely doesn't replace the later armor abilities, than that means that at 7th level, you'd be able to wear chainmail proficiently, while being able to cast spells with arcane failure, but you couldn't do the same in leather (since nothing yet has granted you Light Armor proficiency).

Unfortunately, I don't know if they ever issue errata for the splat books, so you are unlikely to get a real answer for this.

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