ACG Dipping.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The 'Dipping for Fun and Profit' guide exists but it hasn't been updated for a couple of years. What is the board's thoughts on the new ACG classes?

Swashbuckler: BAB, D10, Panache pool, Deeds. Weapon Finesse (restricted, but qualifies for chains).

Good for: Magi, sword fighting Bards, Cha classes who want a bit of zip and sword skill? Ninjas, even Oracles?

Brawler: BAB, D10, Improved Unarmed Strike with 1d6 punch, Brawler's cunning to qualify for feats, Martial Training, bonus combat feat, Martial Flexibility, Brawler's Flurry

Good for: Master of Many Styles Monk is the most obvious, getting flurry back and the many styles/Martial Flexibility mixing to create very broad options. Monks in general. Many melee types actually, the combat feat and the flexibility are not restricted to punching. I could see it working with Cavalier for a proper tough guy.

Skald: lots of skills, bardic spell list, can cast those in armour, Inspiring Rage, will save boost.

Good for: Similar to Bard. Not sure. Bloodrager might work as it gives two different spell lists for wands, similar stats needed and gives a pool of limited rage on top of the normal Bloodrager's. I want it to work with Magus. Swashbuckler, as the Cha will be good and it gives a bit of utility casting (or stuff like Vanish) with another combat option with rage.

Hunter: animal companions need to scale, and this is the problem. Animal Domain Clerics might be able to do something, especially Clerics of Erastil. The martial weapons help. Witch might work if you can make that AC your familiar.

Slayer: BAB, D10, Fort and Ref, tons of skills, martial weapons, Studied Target, Track (several archetype options), Slayer Talent.

Good for: Lots. Eldritch Knight. Martial Cleric. It's the best martial dip IMO.

Bloodrager: Not a lot here, I fear. The Bloodline and related powers are so important and they scale by level. The spell list will help on UMD, and you could cast while raging as a Wizard or Sorcerer if the spells or on the Bloodrager list. Possibly something like Bloodrager 2/Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple would work.

Warpriest: No idea. Something can be done with Fervor to cast swift buff on yourself.

Arcanist: No idea. Possibly a bit more flexible than the Sorcerer or Wizard for dips, because they have a lot of Exploit choice. Would work with Arcane Trickster, but that is a build not a dip. Witch maybe?

Shaman: Umm. Weird (but good) class anyway. Gets a familiar and an odd spell list. 4th level is too high for a dip, but the Wandering Spirit adds lots of flexibility.

Investigator: all the skills and the points to use them, good will save, Alchemy, inspiration, trap finding, poisons

Good for: Rogues, but if you are doing that you may as well be an investigator anyway. Utility for Magi. Slayers and Rangers will get pretty much every skill, use of Alchemy and Inspiration to make up for the drop in BAB.

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As you can see, this is a tentative start, but I'd encourage posters in this thread to fill out more options and details.

Dark Archive

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The Vernimous Hunter gives Fast Healing 1 and light fortification at first level.


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dont forget that swashbucklers finesse is going to be necessary for dex to damage melee builds.

Scarab Sages

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Snakebite Striker Brawler is a way to get 1d6 Sneak attack with full BAB in a 1 level dip.


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Jadeite wrote:
The Vernimous Hunter gives Fast Healing 1 and light fortification at first level.

You also get +4 to perception (or darkvision) when not in combat and access to all ranger and druid spells up to 6th level for spell completion items. Not to mention all martial weapons and medium armor plus shields, along with 6 skill points.


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Edit: I'll be bamboozled. Signature Deed isn't a combat feat.

Still not bad for a gunslinger in case you get cornered in melee and need to maneuver your way out without provoking.


Jadeite wrote:
The Vernimous Hunter gives Fast Healing 1 and light fortification at first level.

Thread here http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rhe1?Fast-healing-1-at-level-1#1


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Captian Von Spicy Wiener wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
The Vernimous Hunter gives Fast Healing 1 and light fortification at first level.
Thread here http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rhe1?Fast-healing-1-at-level-1#1

Linkified.


Brawler no get a combat feat on level 1.

Also Brawler's Flurry is not quite like any Flurry.


Swashbuckler: Inspired Blade Swashbuckler gives you both weapon finesse and weapon focus with the rapier, covering all the feat requirements for Fencing Grace as early as level 1. Great option for dip-happy dex/int investigators or magi who want to avoid the scimitar.

Warpriest: Good armor and weapon proficiency, as well as Proficiency and Weapon Focus with essentially any weapon of your choice. If combined with a level of swashbuckler you can get an exclusively dex-based TWF sawtooth sabre build online as early as level 2.


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Swashbuckler (Especially inspired blade, but swashy in general) is probably going to be the dip of choice from here on out. I expect to see lots of these in PFS.

That Verminous Hunter trick is cool and not something I was aware of. Fast heal 1 and fortification is pretty solid.

I could see a one level investigator dip for a bard and bardic knowledge:) Not really necessary but hilarious.

Slayer could be like Ranger dips for a combat feat. Probably free booter will still be more common.

I suspect you may see arcanist dip wizard/sorcerer quite often. I keep meaning to look into it more, but it seems you can have a nearly full school or bloodline for one talent and a one level dip, which seems better than either archetype which grants the same.


Swashbuckler also has Opportune Parry & Riposte which is good for any class with a 3/4 BAB or better, melee OR ranged - 1 level dip, and you get probably the coolest ability in that entire class.


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I guess there's a feat in ACO that allows bloodragers to cast spells from other lists while blood raging. i imagine this could be useful.


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I like Swash 1 as part of entry into Red Mantis Assassin. You get some decent goodies and the ability to finesse/slashing grace your sawtooths, letting you play that oh-so-dreaded dex to damage character everyone on the forum is so terrified of.


christos gurd wrote:
dont forget that swashbucklers finesse is going to be necessary for dex to damage melee builds.

Well, Finesse -> Dervish is still an option that doesn't require multiclassing, uses one of the most desirable weapons, and doesn't require any more feats than Focus -> Grace. There's also the possibility of Aldori Dueling Sword and Slashing Grace, or a Klar if you want to get weird about it and wield a Slashing Grace weapon-shield. Amateur Swashbuckler can also grab Parry and Riposte. So dex-to-damage through feats can end up a lot like a swashbuckler dip without having to actually get wet.


BadBird wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
dont forget that swashbucklers finesse is going to be necessary for dex to damage melee builds.
Well, Finesse -> Dervish is still an option that doesn't require multiclassing, uses one of the most desirable weapons, and doesn't require any more feats than Focus -> Grace. There's also the possibility of Aldori Dueling Sword and Slashing Grace, or a Klar if you want to get weird about it and wield a Slashing Grace weapon-shield. Amateur Swashbuckler can also grab Parry and Riposte. So dex-to-damage through feats can end up a lot like a swashbuckler dip without having to actually get wet.

right up until you want to finesse a katana, the possibility of which had a lot of people squeeing.


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christos gurd wrote:
right up until you want to finesse a katana, the possibility of which had a lot of people squeeing.

Indeed, I could hear it from here - if you mean some combination of squealing and peeing. Don't get me wrong, I like the aesthetics of the Katana, but it sure has an iron grip on the imaginations of some people. As far as swords go scimitars are just as unique and interesting, and by the rules there's almost no reason to bother 'upgrading'.


BadBird wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
right up until to finesse a katana, the possibility of which had a lot of people squeeing.
Indeed, I could hear it from here - if you mean some combination of squealing and peeing. Don't get me wrong, I like the aesthetics of the Katana, but it sure has an iron grip on the imaginations of some people. As far as swords go scimitars are just as unique and interesting, and by the rules there's almost no reason to bother 'upgrading'.

PFS has ruined the scimitar for me. I ban dervish dance solely based on my annoyance with that weapon now. I have been in a 6 person party where 4 used scimitars. Never seen that with a katana (or any other weapon period). That alone is a great reason to not use the scimitar in my mind, don't be like everyone else.


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There is also a Magus Archetype that works off of Charisma and gets a few pseudo-Bloodrager abilities. Dipping Swashbuckler with it would be great.


Eldritch Scion, that's what it is called


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
PFS has ruined the scimitar for me. I ban dervish dance solely based on my annoyance with that weapon now. I have been in a 6 person party where 4 used scimitars. Never seen that with a katana (or any other weapon period). That alone is a great reason to not use the scimitar in my mind, don't be like everyone else.

Yes, it would have been and still would be nice to see something along the lines of Dervish Dance workable with at least some diversity of weapons - Fencing Grace should at least bring the rapier in for a little variety. On the up-side, a Power Attacking Elven Curved Blade with Agile or half-decent strength can beat the crap out of Dervish Dance for damage.


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Secret Wizard wrote:

Brawler no get a combat feat on level 1.

Also Brawler's Flurry is not quite like any Flurry.

They do get brawlers cunning which allows them to ignore intelligence requirements on feats, martial flexibility to add a feat on the fly, and a better than average improved unarmed strike. So for min maxers that want to dump int it might be a worthy one level dip

Contributor

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BadBird wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
right up until you want to finesse a katana, the possibility of which had a lot of people squeeing.
Indeed, I could hear it from here - if you mean some combination of squealing and peeing. Don't get me wrong, I like the aesthetics of the Katana, but it sure has an iron grip on the imaginations of some people. As far as swords go scimitars are just as unique and interesting, and by the rules there's almost no reason to bother 'upgrading'.

This is just my opinion, but considering the scimitar has dominated the Dex to Damage scene for the past several years (thanks to Dervish Dance), I don't consider the scimitar all that unique either.

Now, finessable morning stars? THERE'S a weapon that makes a unique swashbuckler! (Even if you can't get Dex to damage with it. Yet.)

Sovereign Court

christos gurd wrote:
dont forget that swashbucklers finesse is going to be necessary for dex to damage melee builds.

Not entirely. You can get dex to damage with an aldori dueling sword without dipping into swashbuckler. Though the swash level is required to duel wield for dex-to-damage.

Also of note - you get that feature of swashbuckler by dipping into cavalier/daring champion archtype. Though as a 1 level dip swashbuckler is probably better due to getting panache at 1st level.


I'm rocking a 2-level slayer dip for my rogue

a) martial weapons (helloooo kerambit!)
b) studied target
c) a free feat (from a ranger combat style)
d) boosted Fort save

slayer 1 Improved Init, studied target
rogue 2 sneak attack +1d6
slayer 3 Power Attack, Cleave (from a ranger combat style feat)
rogue 4 Surprise Follow-Through (from a rogue talent)


The Arcanist's ability to bump spell DC or CL up by 2 is pretty great. An Eldritch Knight can use it with spell specialization to bump up things like Greater Magic Weapon or Scorching Ray into the next level. Add Mage Tattoo, and the CL15 where Intensified Battering Blast goes nuclear comes at level 10. Plus of course Blade Adept...

On the flipside of the OP, a Shaman with a single level of Monk can really work that Hex Strike. Speaker for the Past -> Spirit Shield and Monk AC is pretty cool too.


BadBird wrote:

The Arcanist's ability to bump spell DC or CL up by 2 is pretty great. An Eldritch Knight can use it with spell specialization to bump up things like Greater Magic Weapon or Scorching Ray into the next level. Add Mage Tattoo, and the CL15 where Intensified Battering Blast goes nuclear comes at level 10. Plus of course Blade Adept...

On the flipside of the OP, a Shaman with a single level of Monk can really work that Hex Strike. Speaker for the Past -> Spirit Shield and Monk AC is pretty cool too.

Please do not archetype with Shaman (except maybe Possessed Shaman if you are really in need of a skill monkey). Instead of Spirit Shield just use Air Barrier, which does the same thing and you can get it with either Wandering Hex or with Spirit Talker if you don't feel like picking up the Wind Spirit.


Anzyr wrote:
Please do not archetype with Shaman (except maybe Possessed Shaman if you are really in need of a skill monkey). Instead of Spirit Shield just use Air Barrier, which does the same thing and you can get it with either Wandering Hex or with Spirit Talker if you don't feel like picking up the Wind Spirit.

Speaker for the Past also grants perception, Heroism and other bonus spells to class list, and the Temporal Celerity revelation which is just awesome. There are other nice revelations as well. I find a lot of the spirit options pretty meh anyways, especially for a Battle Shaman who can't afford charisma. As you mentioned, Spirit Talker can cover grabbing something you really want from a second spirit anyhow.

Grand Lodge

I thought you couldn't stack a hybrid class with either of the classes it combines... No slayer if you have rogue levels and no brawler if you have monk levels, etc. or did they take that restriction out?


Headfirst wrote:
I thought you couldn't stack a hybrid class with either of the classes it combines... No slayer if you have rogue levels and no brawler if you have monk levels, etc. or did they take that restriction out?

They reversed that around the second round of playtesting.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
dont forget that swashbucklers finesse is going to be necessary for dex to damage melee builds.

Not entirely. You can get dex to damage with an aldori dueling sword without dipping into swashbuckler. Though the swash level is required to duel wield for dex-to-damage.

Also of note - you get that feature of swashbuckler by dipping into cavalier/daring champion archtype. Though as a 1 level dip swashbuckler is probably better due to getting panache at 1st level.

true, although personally i wouldn't mind dipping swash on monk for dex to temple sword.


Scythia wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
I thought you couldn't stack a hybrid class with either of the classes it combines... No slayer if you have rogue levels and no brawler if you have monk levels, etc. or did they take that restriction out?
They reversed that around the second round of playtesting.

Funny story: don't take 3 levels of slayer on your rogue: the sneak attack doesn't stack!

Dark Archive

One level of vivisectionist would be very good for a Slayer.

Quote:
Sneak Attack: At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack's extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on). This ability replaces bomb.


Scythia wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
I thought you couldn't stack a hybrid class with either of the classes it combines... No slayer if you have rogue levels and no brawler if you have monk levels, etc. or did they take that restriction out?
They reversed that around the second round of playtesting.

Yep. This is how you do Sorcerer 1/Arcanist 19 to get all of the sorcerer's class features for 1 CL and an exploit.


Squiggit wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
I thought you couldn't stack a hybrid class with either of the classes it combines... No slayer if you have rogue levels and no brawler if you have monk levels, etc. or did they take that restriction out?
They reversed that around the second round of playtesting.
Yep. This is how you do Sorcerer 1/Arcanist 19 to get all of the sorcerer's class features for 1 CL and an exploit.

You don't get the bonus spells, which are the most important part of most bloodlines.

Contributor

ohako wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
I thought you couldn't stack a hybrid class with either of the classes it combines... No slayer if you have rogue levels and no brawler if you have monk levels, etc. or did they take that restriction out?
They reversed that around the second round of playtesting.
Funny story: don't take 3 levels of slayer on your rogue: the sneak attack doesn't stack!

Yes, they do. Sources of sneak attack damage always stack. If you want to get technical, they're all sources of untyped, extra damage. Because they're untyped, neither class needs to note that it stacks with the other.


1 Level of Warpriest dip grants access to Martial Weapons (Good for EK), access to the Cleric Spell list (So you can use wands of Freedom of Movement, Heal, etc.) and make you Eligible for the Divine Protection Feat (a must-have for any CHA based class).


Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Headfirst wrote:
I thought you couldn't stack a hybrid class with either of the classes it combines... No slayer if you have rogue levels and no brawler if you have monk levels, etc. or did they take that restriction out?
They reversed that around the second round of playtesting.
Yep. This is how you do Sorcerer 1/Arcanist 19 to get all of the sorcerer's class features for 1 CL and an exploit.
You don't get the bonus spells, which are the most important part of most bloodlines.

You're an arcanist. Who needs bonus spells?

Dark Archive

Gavmania wrote:
1 Level of Warpriest dip grants access to Martial Weapons (Good for EK), access to the Cleric Spell list (So you can use wands of Freedom of Movement, Heal, etc.) and make you Eligible for the Divine Protection Feat (a must-have for any CHA based class).

You need 2nd level divine spells to qualify for Divine Protection, so a 1-level dip won't cut it unless your main class is also a divine spellcaster (which likely has the mystery or domain class feature already).


Seranov wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
1 Level of Warpriest dip grants access to Martial Weapons (Good for EK), access to the Cleric Spell list (So you can use wands of Freedom of Movement, Heal, etc.) and make you Eligible for the Divine Protection Feat (a must-have for any CHA based class).
You need 2nd level divine spells to qualify for Divine Protection, so a 1-level dip won't cut it unless your main class is also a divine spellcaster (which likely has the mystery or domain class feature already).

Just need a 2nd level divine SLA to make it work. You don't need the actual class levels in casting.

Dark Archive

graystone wrote:
Seranov wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
1 Level of Warpriest dip grants access to Martial Weapons (Good for EK), access to the Cleric Spell list (So you can use wands of Freedom of Movement, Heal, etc.) and make you Eligible for the Divine Protection Feat (a must-have for any CHA based class).
You need 2nd level divine spells to qualify for Divine Protection, so a 1-level dip won't cut it unless your main class is also a divine spellcaster (which likely has the mystery or domain class feature already).
Just need a 2nd level divine SLA to make it work. You don't need the actual class levels in casting.

Technically, but that restricts your racial choices quite a bit. To just Tiefling and Aasimar, iirc.


There are other ways to get one other that race. For instance Believer's Boon could get you it, or you could be a divine class without the feature (mystery or domain class) like a druid, shaman or hunter.

it's an option, it just may mean it limits your other options is you use it.


Seranov wrote:
graystone wrote:
Seranov wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
1 Level of Warpriest dip grants access to Martial Weapons (Good for EK), access to the Cleric Spell list (So you can use wands of Freedom of Movement, Heal, etc.) and make you Eligible for the Divine Protection Feat (a must-have for any CHA based class).
You need 2nd level divine spells to qualify for Divine Protection, so a 1-level dip won't cut it unless your main class is also a divine spellcaster (which likely has the mystery or domain class feature already).
Just need a 2nd level divine SLA to make it work. You don't need the actual class levels in casting.
Technically, but that restricts your racial choices quite a bit. To just Tiefling and Aasimar, iirc.

You're right. In fact if you want to use it for Early entry EK you have to be an Aasimar and take the Heavenly Radiance Feat at 3rd level, giving you a 3rd level arcane SLA and a 2nd level Divine SLA, a fact I hadn't considered (technically you could go scryer school or use the spell sage archetype, but that would mean you are an INT-based caster, which means High CHA is unlikely)


Doesn't work. It has to be a 2nd level ability, higher level ones don't count as lower ones.

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