Salvage Operations: Reward Question


Pathfinder Adventure Card Society

Silver Crusade *** Venture-Lieutenant, Missouri—Kansas City

Greetings everyone, I'm asking this question before it comes up in my region.

For the reward of Salvage Operations, this is the wording:

Salvage Operations Reward wrote:
Randomly choose a type of boon other than loot. Each character draws a random card of that type from the box.

From the wording, it sounds like the players should draw from the game box and not from their class deck box. If it's drawn from the game box, then it would let the player choose the card they want based on the level of the card. If it's from the class deck box, it's just a random draw.

Which box is this intending the players to draw randomly from?

Thanks!

Shadow Lodge *****

Class Deck box.

Players will draw all cards of the chosen type from sets B and 1, and randomly pick one.

Silver Crusade ** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 aka cartmanbeck

@ThreeeEyedSloth: That's definitely not correct. It should be a random card from the game box, giving you a chance at another upgrade using the same rules as normal card upgrading. That's all.

Shadow Lodge *****

Guide to PFSACG Organized Play wrote:

If you are

rewarded with a card from the box, you will instead
take a random card of the same type from your Class
Deck box. The card you take cannot have an adventure
deck number higher than that of the scenario you
completed. For example, if you just completed a scenario
in adventure 2, and the scenario reward was a random
item from the box, you would instead take an item with
an adventure deck number no higher than 2 from your
Class Deck. If you do not have an appropriate item, you
do not gain that reward.

Venture-Agent, Oregon—Corvallis aka HikariStarshine

Do players need to choose if they're going to take the scenario reward for this one *before* the random boon type is selected, or can they choose to back out once the roll hits? Seems like this particular scenario reward is potentially useless as much as 33% of the time for some characters, if you have to choose before you know what type it's going to be.

Shadow Lodge *****

The way I've always interpreted it, opting to take the roll means you are taking the scenario reward. You may not get what you want, but electing to roll for the card type means you've taken the scenario reward.

However, Tanis may have intended that to be different, so hopefully she will be able to clarify that for us.

Venture-Agent, Oregon—Corvallis aka HikariStarshine

Yeah... 'cos I seriously want to back out of having taken the reward on this one with my Siwar. That Weapon 1 is nice and all, and the Rogue and Fighter that I was partied with liked getting Weapon boons, but without any card boons yet, there's no reason to have actually done the draw in the first place on a Weapon if I didn't have to, myself.

Besides, it's not like I won't have at least one chance to redo the scenario soonish, if I can manage to get a second or third group going locally...

Pathfinder ACG Designer

ThreeEyedSloth wrote:

The way I've always interpreted it, opting to take the roll means you are taking the scenario reward. You may not get what you want, but electing to roll for the card type means you've taken the scenario reward.

However, Tanis may have intended that to be different, so hopefully she will be able to clarify that for us.

This was my intent. Gives you a shot at a (plunder types+blessing) reward, but you are at the mercy of the dice. This is in addition to your deck upgrade, of course. I think people will find they have ample opportunity to tune their decks as the season progresses.

Always taking feedback on things, of course.

The Exchange

So, roll once on the booty table, count blessings as a 6, and then everyone pulls from their class deck the appropriate card type... easy.

Feedback: allow a reroll for any character that is barred from that initial random result... spell for Valeros as an example, or at least allow for a reward not taken for such a character so they can replay and try again.

Sovereign Court

I don't think that's really necessary. Sometime's a reward just isn't going to benefit you. You hope it will, and you use all the other many opportunities to tweak your deck how you want it. It isn't a problem in the base game, and in OP you have even more opportunity to customize your deck because you will always get at least 1 card from your custom built deck box.

Venture-Agent, Oregon—Corvallis aka HikariStarshine

In the base game, you're likely to get more than just one new card per round, though, and the weaponless character who just pulled a random weapon as a reward can still hand it off to someone else so they can benefit. It's not a problem in the base game, no, but trying to equate base-game deck construction to OP deck construction just don't work, because the base game ways to mitigate 'Can't use this card I just got as a reward' don't exist in OP.

I liked how in scenario 1-1, the reward was -either- a weapon or a spell. That way, it was totally useful for everyone at my table. The two non-magic people could get weapons, and the I, the non-weapon user, could get a new spell to play with.

This scenario, though, I actively got -less- benefit than everyone else at my table, because everyone was locked into Weapon for the reward. The same would've happened to me with Armor - the Rogue and the Fighter would've been fine, I would've been blocked out because I don't have any slots for it in my deck, and won't have for as far as I can tell into the future. If Spell had come up, I would've been the only one who benefited from it.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like bad design in organized play, where you're not necessarily playing with the same people from session to session, to have a reward that can potentially be utterly useless to a player. Particularly if the point where you can back out of it and save it for another shot at the same scenario comes after you've already been locked into getting no benefit.

Silver Crusade ** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 aka cartmanbeck

ThreeEyedSloth wrote:
Guide to PFSACG Organized Play wrote:

If you are

rewarded with a card from the box, you will instead
take a random card of the same type from your Class
Deck box. The card you take cannot have an adventure
deck number higher than that of the scenario you
completed. For example, if you just completed a scenario
in adventure 2, and the scenario reward was a random
item from the box, you would instead take an item with
an adventure deck number no higher than 2 from your
Class Deck. If you do not have an appropriate item, you
do not gain that reward.

Totally my mistake, sorry about that, ThreeEyedSloth! Good to know for the future! :)

The Exchange

Andrew Klein wrote:
I don't think that's really necessary. Sometime's a reward just isn't going to benefit you. You hope it will, and you use all the other many opportunities to tweak your deck how you want it. It isn't a problem in the base game, and in OP you have even more opportunity to customize your deck because you will always get at least 1 card from your custom built deck box.

If it doesn't benefit you it isn't a reward. A player needs to either always at least have a chance of an upgrade, or the option to not check take reward needs to be made if we assume that difficulty ramps up based on upgrading the deck/character every time.

Maybe Tanis designed OP around the concept of players only upgrading 50% or 75% of the time they complete a scenario (similar to in PFS where it is assumed a player will not get every prestige point) but that hasn't been stated.

Additionally, in real play, 2 of the 6 scenarios in the 0-1 series did not yield any acquired cards that would provide an upgrade when swapped out for an equal power level card from the class deck.

Maybe that is a unique issue with the cleric deck, but the concept of always coming away with something has proven to not be the case... this is only compounded by a scenario reward that has the capacity to be wholly unusable.

Silver Crusade *** Venture-Lieutenant, Missouri—Kansas City

cartmanbeck wrote:
ThreeEyedSloth wrote:
Guide to PFSACG Organized Play wrote:

If you are

rewarded with a card from the box, you will instead
take a random card of the same type from your Class
Deck box. The card you take cannot have an adventure
deck number higher than that of the scenario you
completed. For example, if you just completed a scenario
in adventure 2, and the scenario reward was a random
item from the box, you would instead take an item with
an adventure deck number no higher than 2 from your
Class Deck. If you do not have an appropriate item, you
do not gain that reward.
Totally my mistake, sorry about that, ThreeEyedSloth! Good to know for the future! :)

Thanks for the reminder of this rule as well!

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

NOG the Demoralizer wrote:

So, roll once on the booty table, count blessings as a 6, and then everyone pulls from their class deck the appropriate card type... easy.

Feedback: allow a reroll for any character that is barred from that initial random result... spell for Valeros as an example, or at least allow for a reward not taken for such a character so they can replay and try again.

NOG, I'd agree with you about the re-roll. For a boon that is completely useless to a character like a spell for Valeros or a blessing for Ezren, then re-roll. As long as that boon type is on the card type recipe for a character then that's the random boon. You may not like the boon that is selected and choose not to add it to your deck at that point.

I do have a question, though. This relates to this, Salvage Operations and Ghosts of the Deep and any scenario that rewards a card. In Ghosts of the Deep, if you pick a spell or weapon but don't like what comes up and decide not to add it to your deck, are you still Taking the Reward? I've been saying no. Only if you accept the (random) choice and put it into your deck have we checked Yes. Is that wrong?


Theryon Stormrune wrote:
NOG the Demoralizer wrote:

So, roll once on the booty table, count blessings as a 6, and then everyone pulls from their class deck the appropriate card type... easy.

Feedback: allow a reroll for any character that is barred from that initial random result... spell for Valeros as an example, or at least allow for a reward not taken for such a character so they can replay and try again.

NOG, I'd agree with you about the re-roll. For a boon that is completely useless to a character like a spell for Valeros or a blessing for Ezren, then re-roll. As long as that boon type is on the card type recipe for a character then that's the random boon. You may not like the boon that is selected and choose not to add it to your deck at that point.

I do have a question, though. This relates to this, Salvage Operations and Ghosts of the Deep and any scenario that rewards a card. In Ghosts of the Deep, if you pick a spell or weapon but don't like what comes up and decide not to add it to your deck, are you still Taking the Reward? I've been saying no. Only if you accept the (random) choice and put it into your deck have we checked Yes. Is that wrong?

I would believe that "taking the reward" is different than "keeping the reward". Once you agree to randomly pull a card from the box, then the reward has been given... whether or not you keep it is a different story. This is how we play it in the base games anyway, so I wouldn't feel it would be any different in OP.

But that's just my take on it. Would be interested to see what the developers intended.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

Raynair wrote:

I would believe that "taking the reward" is different than "keeping the reward". Once you agree to randomly pull a card from the box, then the reward has been given... whether or not you keep it is a different story. This is how we play it in the base games anyway, so I wouldn't feel it would be any different in OP.

But that's just my take on it. Would be interested to see what the developers intended.

I agree with you that it is different and if it was meant this way then I've been reading (into) it wrong and marking it wrong on the chronicles and reporting sheets.

*

Pathfinder Card Game, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Raynair wrote:


I would believe that "taking the reward" is different than "keeping the reward". Once you agree to randomly pull a card from the box, then the reward has been given... whether or not you keep it is a different story. This is how we play it in the base games anyway, so I wouldn't feel it would be any different in OP.

But that's just my take on it. Would be interested to see what the developers intended.

I think that Tanis agrees with you, given what she posted just a little bit up-thread. (Well, you and ThreeEyedSloth seem to have the same feeling on what it means to take the reward).

*

Pathfinder Card Game, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Theryon Stormrune wrote:


I agree with you that it is different and if it was meant this way then I've been reading (into) it wrong and marking it wrong on the chronicles and reporting sheets.

I suppose the confusion might stem from "Why wouldn't I take the reward and check the box? There's a box to check, so that implies a choice that I have". The only thing I can think of at the moment is maybe you're playing a character that has no weapons at the moment, and are banking a "random weapon from the box" reward until you get a card feat that gives you one. If you end up replaying the scenario after that card feat, it might more useful to you then. But i'm speculating. I think if the rule for Season 1 changed to "The first time you succeed at a given scenario, you must take the reward then", the difference would be pretty minimal in practice.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

First World Bard wrote:
Theryon Stormrune wrote:


I agree with you that it is different and if it was meant this way then I've been reading (into) it wrong and marking it wrong on the chronicles and reporting sheets.
I suppose the confusion might stem from "Why wouldn't I take the reward and check the box? There's a box to check, so that implies a choice that I have". The only thing I can think of at the moment is maybe you're playing a character that has no weapons at the moment, and are banking a "random weapon from the box" reward until you get a card feat that gives you one. If you end up replaying the scenario after that card feat, it might more useful to you then. But i'm speculating. I think if the rule for Season 1 changed to "The first time you succeed at a given scenario, you must take the reward then", the difference would be pretty minimal in practice.

Actually the confusion is this ...

Ghosts of the Deep rewards you with a random weapon or spell. I'm a caster so I choose spell. I take out the cards and shuffle them. Hand them to my friend and then pick a card. Arcane Armor. Ick. I didn't want it in my deck to start with. Do I want it now? No. Am I Taking the Reward? Not in my mind.

See what I mean? And everyone that I've played with viewed it the same way. (Except those that didn't want a weapon or spell so they didn't even try.) I'm offered a reward. I look at what the reward would be. I choose not to take the reward. I didn't look at it as am I going to attempt to Take the Reward and then choose not to accept the result but still I did Take the Reward because I attempted to get a random card.

Pathfinder ACG Designer

Theryon Stormrune wrote:

Ghosts of the Deep rewards you with a random weapon or spell. I'm a caster so I choose spell. I take out the cards and shuffle them. Hand them to my friend and then pick a card. Arcane Armor. Ick. I didn't want it in my deck to start with. Do I want it now? No. Am I Taking the Reward? Not in my mind.

See what I mean? And everyone that I've played with viewed it the same way. (Except those that didn't want a weapon or spell so they didn't even try.) I'm offered a reward. I look at what the reward would be. I choose not to take the reward. I didn't look at it as am I going to attempt to Take the Reward and then choose not to accept the result but still I did Take the Reward because I attempted to get a random card.

So the confusion is with the word "take" or "taking". I can resolve that.

Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Alberta—Edmonton aka Johnny Chronicle

Tanis O'Connor wrote:
So the confusion is with the word "take" or "taking". I can resolve that.

Sorry to pester… Just wondering if this has in fact been resolved yet. We're playing Salvage Operations tomorrow and it would be nice to know if Seoni is indeed supposed to get jack squat if the table rolls Armor or Weapon for the reward.

(Depending on the resolution, I suppose it could also retroactively affect those that pulled a reward weapon/spell in Ghosts of the Deep but chose not to keep it.)

Thanks for all your effort, Tanis & co.!

**** Venture-Captain, Idaho—Boise aka Alifera

The way we play it is if you attempt at getting the reward, then you have taken the scenario reward. What you do with the reward after you receive it is not what is important. I thought the Salvage Operations was an interesting scenario reward. I watched on my new rogue (Jirelle) as everyone else got ally or armor for their rolls. It came time to me and I rolled 1 - Yeah Weapon! I, however, don't remember what I got but I don't think it was an upgrade.

Sovereign Court

Alifera wrote:
The way we play it is if you attempt at getting the reward, then you have taken the scenario reward. What you do with the reward after you receive it is not what is important. I thought the Salvage Operations was an interesting scenario reward. I watched on my new rogue (Jirelle) as everyone else got ally or armor for their rolls. It came time to me and I rolled 1 - Yeah Weapon! I, however, don't remember what I got but I don't think it was an upgrade.

I agree, you got a reward, you just aren't keeping it.

However, regarding "for their rolls" in Salvage Operations -- I read the reward as everyone gets the same type. You pick a type, and each character gets a random boon of THAT type, indicating their is only one type and everyone gets one of those. As opposed to something like Ghosts of the Deep, where it says each character gets a weapon or a spell, each can take one or the other. However, the wording of Operations sounds more like everyone gets the same type.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Even if the scenario reward doesn't end up being good for Salvage Operations, it's not a bad one to replay if you really feel the need to farm upgrades. You can somewhat customize boon types available, and no henchmen or villains means most combats will be pretty easy. (You really don't need to farm upgrades tbh)

I honestly wouldn't worry too much about upgrades during adventure 1. You're not really going to have a deck as awesome as a normal game deck during this adventure. My testing of a playthrough of Runelords using OP upgrade rules showed me that the real noticeable jumps start coming in adventure 2.

I too have been playing as if choosing to see your random card = taking the reward. Taking the reward gives you the option of putting that card in your deck; if you choose to rebuild without it that's you choice, but the reward of having it available was taken. I was a little unsure until I read this thread.

Pathfinder ACG Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alifera wrote:
The way we play it is if you attempt at getting the reward, then you have taken the scenario reward. What you do with the reward after you receive it is not what is important. I thought the Salvage Operations was an interesting scenario reward. I watched on my new rogue (Jirelle) as everyone else got ally or armor for their rolls. It came time to me and I rolled 1 - Yeah Weapon! I, however, don't remember what I got but I don't think it was an upgrade.

This is correct. You choose to get the reward, then you roll. If you didn't get what you wanted, well, sometimes the party gets crappy treasure. You still get the deck upgrade, so contemplate this strategy.

The Exchange

Tanis, any thoughts on the rewards that can't actually be taken because the role card doesn't allow it conundrum?

Pathfinder ACG Designer

Ryan Jensen --- NOG wrote:
Tanis, any thoughts on the rewards that can't actually be taken because the role card doesn't allow it conundrum?

Don't know what you're referring to, and a search of this thread for "role card" returns only your comment.

Sovereign Court

I believe he means the allowed cards a character can keep in their deck. For example, if Valeros gets a spell reward.

Pathfinder ACG Designer

Andrew Klein wrote:

I believe he means the allowed cards a character can keep in their deck. For example, if Valeros gets a spell reward.

Thank you for the translation, Andrew.

Then you're out of luck. If you roll spell and you can't keep a spell, then your party found crappy treasure. You'll still get a deck upgrade.

The Exchange

Sorry Tanis, it was up a few posts in this thread.

That was what we thought would be the case, just wanted to clarify for a player that had asked

Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Alberta—Edmonton aka Johnny Chronicle

Tanis O'Connor wrote:
Alifera wrote:
The way we play it is if you attempt at getting the reward, then you have taken the scenario reward. What you do with the reward after you receive it is not what is important. I thought the Salvage Operations was an interesting scenario reward. I watched on my new rogue (Jirelle) as everyone else got ally or armor for their rolls. It came time to me and I rolled 1 - Yeah Weapon! I, however, don't remember what I got but I don't think it was an upgrade.
This is correct. You choose to get the reward, then you roll. If you didn't get what you wanted, well, sometimes the party gets crappy treasure. You still get the deck upgrade, so contemplate this strategy.

Thanks for resolving this resolution, Tanis!

To put a caveat on the "This is correct" reply to Alifera's post, I believe Andrew Klein was correct when he offered this, um, correction:

Andrew Klein wrote:
However, regarding "for their rolls" in Salvage Operations -- I read the reward as everyone gets the same type. You pick a type, and each character gets a random boon of THAT type, indicating their is only one type and everyone gets one of those. As opposed to something like Ghosts of the Deep, where it says each character gets a weapon or a spell, each can take one or the other. However, the wording of Operations sounds more like everyone gets the same type.

Correct? 8>)

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

Johnny Chronicle wrote:

To put a caveat on the "This is correct" reply to Alifera's post, I believe Andrew Klein was correct when he offered this, um, correction:

Andrew Klein wrote:
However, regarding "for their rolls" in Salvage Operations -- I read the reward as everyone gets the same type. You pick a type, and each character gets a random boon of THAT type, indicating their is only one type and everyone gets one of those. As opposed to something like Ghosts of the Deep, where it says each character gets a weapon or a spell, each can take one or the other. However, the wording of Operations sounds more like everyone gets the same type.
Correct? 8>)

As far as the wording for the reward goes, yes, everyone gets a random card of that type (that was randomly chosen ... using the Plunder chart with Blessing as 6 is the easiest.)

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