Dragon Ferocity and Power Attack after the new FAQ


Rules Questions

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Lavawight wrote:
Rikkan wrote:

If you make an attack with an Unarmed Strike, all your natural attacks are considered to be secondary for that attack.

Thus wouldn't a monk only get -1 / +1 for power attack?

No, because while the monk's IUS counts as a natural weapon for some things, he doesn't make natural attacks with it. Monk attacks are iterative, so in general primary/secondary aren't applicable.

???

any natural attack used in conjunction with manufactured weapons become secondary, so yes all the attacks would become secondary, meaning they get -1, +1.


Chess Pwn wrote:
it's a good thing that a MIUS isn't actually a natural attack so it doesn't need to fit into one of them

and this is basically it, it doesn't act or become a natural weapon, it acts as a receiver for anything that can effect natural attacks. you don't actually have a natural attack or make natural attacks with it.


Bandw2 wrote:
Lavawight wrote:
Rikkan wrote:

If you make an attack with an Unarmed Strike, all your natural attacks are considered to be secondary for that attack.

Thus wouldn't a monk only get -1 / +1 for power attack?

No, because while the monk's IUS counts as a natural weapon for some things, he doesn't make natural attacks with it. Monk attacks are iterative, so in general primary/secondary aren't applicable.

???

any natural attack used in conjunction with manufactured weapons become secondary, so yes all the attacks would become secondary, meaning they get -1, +1.

Wait, I think I misunderstood your post. Natural attacks made in conjunction with a monk's IUS would be secondary, except if flurrying with Feral Combat Training. I thought you meant that somehow a monk's IUS counted as using natural and manufactured at the same time and thus got the -1/+1.


Lavawight wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Lavawight wrote:
Rikkan wrote:

If you make an attack with an Unarmed Strike, all your natural attacks are considered to be secondary for that attack.

Thus wouldn't a monk only get -1 / +1 for power attack?

No, because while the monk's IUS counts as a natural weapon for some things, he doesn't make natural attacks with it. Monk attacks are iterative, so in general primary/secondary aren't applicable.

???

any natural attack used in conjunction with manufactured weapons become secondary, so yes all the attacks would become secondary, meaning they get -1, +1.

Wait, I think I misunderstood your post. Natural attacks made in conjunction with a monk's IUS would be secondary, except if flurrying with Feral Combat Training. I thought you meant that somehow a monk's IUS counted as using natural and manufactured at the same time and thus got the -1/+1.

actually... does flurrying with a Natural weapon and some manufactured weapon, or if your got FCT with a secondary weapon, would the natural weapon be secondary and apply .5 strength and -5 to-hit during the flurry?

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:


actually... does flurrying with a Natural weapon and some manufactured weapon, or if your got FCT with a secondary weapon, would the natural weapon be secondary and apply .5 strength and -5 to-hit during the flurry?

No. FCT would make act as an unarmed strike, doing your monk UAS damage, and using the rules for flurry, (IE BAB and iterative attacks).

The only thing that wouldn't change would be the the natural attack would still do it's normal damage type. (B/S for claws, B/S/P for bites, and so on)


Imbicatus wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:


actually... does flurrying with a Natural weapon and some manufactured weapon, or if your got FCT with a secondary weapon, would the natural weapon be secondary and apply .5 strength and -5 to-hit during the flurry?

No. FCT would make act as an unarmed strike, doing your monk UAS damage, and using the rules for flurry, (IE BAB and iterative attacks).

The only thing that wouldn't change would be the the natural attack would still do it's normal damage type. (B/S for claws, B/S/P for bites, and so on)

but why exactly?

and not the later part, i mean why does it behave like it's not a natural weapon, is it because of it using iteratives it's a quasi manufactured weapon or something?


It lets you use the natural weapon as if it was a monk weapon. That means you treat it as any other weapon used in a flurry and flurry sets you minuses to hit and your strength.


ElementalXX wrote:
Its hardly game breaking,i mean we are talking about monks here, but it doesnt mean its right.

What if it would be a Brawler? Would you consider it overpowered then?

Especially in a group with a wizard, cleric, archer paladin and arcane duelist. All mythic.


I wonder if these arguments come up in translations of the books since english is such a mickey mouse language.

Shadow Lodge

Jeremias wrote:
ElementalXX wrote:
Its hardly game breaking,i mean we are talking about monks here, but it doesnt mean its right.

What if it would be a Brawler? Would you consider it overpowered then?

Especially in a group with a wizard, cleric, archer paladin and arcane duelist. All mythic.

It wouldnt, unarmed strike IS annoying enough to use.

On that group the wizard would still be the king, mythic or not


Jeremias wrote:

Morning,

I just read the FAQ. And to me it seems that with the new wording for Dragon Ferocity the attack-to-damage ratio from Power Attack changes to the progression for twohanded weapons. Am I right?

seems like it first attack you do double str dmg all other attacks do 1 1/2 times str dmg

so if you have a +4 str modifier
1st attack deals +8
all other attacks deal +6

if you add power attack to it though it will still scale on a one handed progression of -1/+2


The more I read and think about the topic, the clearer it becomes.

MIUS counts as a natural weapon for spells and effects but it is not a primary or a secondary natural attack. If it were, there would be no iterative attacks and no flurrying.

It's as simple as that.


I went over that already. That if/then statement you made is wrong because of multiple reasons.


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As always, your cryptic and rude responses are very helpful. Thanks a lot!


I don't really like repeating myself more than three times in such a short thread. That just makes the conversation go in ever shorter circles as every poster has to re-post a rebuttal to an argument that has already been brought up and definitively debunked when a new poster comes in. eventually the thread goes nowhere fast as everyone spends all their time replying the same thing to everyone new who jumps in without reading.

Saying "yeah read the thread" is a valid response in that case.

I'll give you the short version though, since you asked so nice.

Feel free to say the thing doesn't augment Power Attack, there's evidence on both sides for that, but "it's not a primary or secondary because then it wouldn't get iteratives" is wrong since treated as =/= is. It's treated as a Natural Attack for the purposes of things, but doesn't have the same limitations (because it's also a Manufactured Weapon, and ultimately still is an Unarmed Strike, which follows the rules for iterative attacks).

My argument is that it's treated as primary because a Natural Attack has to be one or the other, and an Unarmed Strike falls closer to primary than secondary.

Others say it counts as neither. Both have their merits.

But "it can't be because then they wouldn't get iteratives" is wrong from any perspective. By that logic Flurry of Blows would never work at all (since the whole no iteratives thing isn't restricted by primary OR secondary, that's simply a function of natural attacks).


power attacks wants you to HAVE a natural attack, MIUS just makes it act as a receiver for things that augment natural attacks, and since power attack doesn't latch onto anything and simply increases damage, nothing changes.

you can't be primary unless your actually using a natural attack.

basically, you don't pretend your fist is a natural weapon if it being a natural weapon is favorable, it simply can be effected as if it were a natural weapon.


@Rynjin:
There is a difference in "being" and "being treated as for spells and effects".

The thing is, MIUS is not a natural attack - you treat your body as a natural weapon (for spells and effects) - but you don't have primary or secondary natural attacks.

The MIUS does not have to be treated as a primary or a secondary natural attack because a monk does not have natural attacks (at least normally) - he just has a natural weapon.

You get the difference between attacks and weapons, pray tell (to use your own courteous cadence)?


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So, let me see if I can distill each side's conclusions drawn from the following text:

Unarmed Strike wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Conclusion A: If it's treated as a natural weapon, it must be treated as either primary or secondary, because all natural weapons are either primary or secondary.

Conclusion B: It's neither a primary nor secondary natural weapon because it isn't specified as either, and doesn't need to be.

At this point, not sure there are many arguments left unstated.


I tried to say basically that, and that there simply isn't enough information to clarify one way or the other, but to no avail. RAW it gets -1/+2 because MIUS isn't stated to be any of the things that get -1/+3, even with power attack, but people are arguing intent now, which is essentially a dead-end without dev input.


Rynjin wrote:
My argument is that it's treated as primary because a Natural Attack has to be one or the other, and an Unarmed Strike falls closer to primary than secondary.

But if you attack with an Unarmed Strike, you consider all your natural attacks to be secondary for that attacks.


Turgan wrote:

@Rynjin:

There is a difference in "being" and "being treated as for spells and effects".

The thing is, MIUS is not a natural attack - you treat your body as a natural weapon (for spells and effects) - but you don't have primary or secondary natural attacks.

The MIUS does not have to be treated as a primary or a secondary natural attack because a monk does not have natural attacks (at least normally) - he just has a natural weapon.

You get the difference between attacks and weapons, pray tell (to use your own courteous cadence)?

The line is a bit more muddied with Natural Attacks (which are interchangeably referred to as Natural Weapons in the book; There seems to be no meaningful distinction).

You are absolutely correct there is a difference between an attack and a weapon, but not so much a difference between a natural attack and a natural weapon (though there is a difference between a natural attack or a natural weapon and an attack with a natural attack or natural weapon).

BTW "courteous cadence" is such a surprisingly soothing pair of words. It just sounds so good.


"Primary Natural Weapons" are not defined by the system - the wording only appears in the description of the Power Attack feat - whereas primary attacks are defined in the bestiary (p. 301/302).

Primary or secondary attacks are not a class feature of the Monk - they are more or less racial abilities player races usually do not possess (exceptions like the toothy half-orc prove the rule).

It seems to me, there are two possibilities: The wording in PA should have been "Natural Weapons" or "Primary Natural Attacks" instead of "Primary Natural Weapons".

(as you probably already know, I am firmly convinced the latter was intended)

A primary natural weapon does not exist - A natural weapon like a tentacle for example can be used for primary attacks by one creature, for secondary attacks by another creature.


also, as stated my opinion is that power attack doesn't effect weapons, and thus doesn't work. along with some other hub bub that no one has commented on, so i guess no one cares.


@Bandw2: Sorry that I did not respond to that. I actually liked and followed your "programming" argumentation.

Silver Crusade

Rhatahema wrote:

So, let me see if I can distill each side's conclusions drawn from the following text:

Unarmed Strike wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Conclusion A: If it's treated as a natural weapon, it must be treated as either primary or secondary, because all natural weapons are either primary or secondary.

Conclusion B: It's neither a primary nor secondary natural weapon because it isn't specified as either, and doesn't need to be.

At this point, not sure there are many arguments left unstated.

C: Power Attack is not a "spell[ ] or effect[ ] that enhance[s] or improve[s] either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Therefore, the monk's unarmed strike is not "treated as a natural weapon" in this case.

(And so, Power Attack operates on it at the normal -1/+2 rate.)


Joe M. wrote:

C: Power Attack is not a "spell[ ] or effect[ ] that enhance[s] or improve[s] either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Therefore, the monk's unarmed strike is not "treated as a natural weapon" in this case.

(And so, Power Attack operates on it at the normal -1/+2 rate.)

Ah, true, missed that point. Makes me think that Pathfinder really needs a more defined catch-all term for the benefits of spells, feats, traits, class features, racial abilities, etc. "Effects" is so vague it may as well say "some stuff".

Shadow Lodge

A rules compendium would be nice


Primary and Secondary are only meaningful distinctions when making an attack with a natural weapon just as Main-hand and Off-hand are in regards to TWF. Unarmed Strike may be treated as a Natural Weapon, but you aren't actually making an attack with a Natural Weapon and making a Primary Attack with a natural weapon is what PA is checking for. To fully illustrate, consider having a single secondary natural attack that is also your only form of natural attack; for the sake of example, we'll say you have a secondary bite attack. The rules say you treat it as a primary attack that also gets 1.5x Str. It isn't actually a primary attack, but you treat it as. Thus, you gain the increased PA bonus damage. MIUS may be treated as a Natural Attack, but when attacking with it, it is still treated as an Unarmed Strike and follows all the rules thereof so the question as to whether "counts as a natural weapon" makes it a primary or secondary natural weapon is, ultimately, moot because the only things that take that into consideration are talking about attacking with it as a natural weapon and you do not do so with MIUS.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I saw the change and was wondering the same thing as the OP. After reading the thread, I would lean towards grey area for RAW, but probably it is not Intended to work in the way strong monks might want it to.

I have a slightly off-topic question that deals with Dragon Ferocity, if I were to use weapon finesse and have an agile AotMF and be in Dragon Style with Dragon Ferocity would I be correct in doing x2 Dex for the first attack and then x1.5 Dex for any other attack, as the agile quality uses Dex in place of Str?


Soup wrote:

I saw the change and was wondering the same thing as the OP. After reading the thread, I would lean towards grey area for RAW, but probably it is not Intended to work in the way strong monks might want it to.

I have a slightly off-topic question that deals with Dragon Ferocity, if I were to use weapon finesse and have an agile AotMF and be in Dragon Style with Dragon Ferocity would I be correct in doing x2 Dex for the first attack and then x1.5 Dex for any other attack, as the agile quality uses Dex in place of Str?

Mark clarified in a different thread that it doesn't work that way, unfortunately.


Quote:
Mark clarified in a different thread that it doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

I'm aware of the clarification on the dex but can you point me to the PA ruling?


Undone wrote:
Quote:
Mark clarified in a different thread that it doesn't work that way, unfortunately.
I'm aware of the clarification on the dex but can you point me to the PA ruling?

What PA ruling are you looking for? I've been out of touch with this thread for a bit.


I wanted to know if we ever got a ruling on how this DS interacts with PA.


Ah. No design team response that I'm aware of, but the consensus seems to be that RAW, DS does not get you the 2h bonus from PA because even with DS, an unarmed strike is none of the things that qualify for the better bonus.
That said, it doesn't seem like it would be gamebreaking, so ask your DM.


Lavawight wrote:

Ah. No design team response that I'm aware of, but the consensus seems to be that RAW, DS does not get you the 2h bonus from PA because even with DS, an unarmed strike is none of the things that qualify for the better bonus.

That said, it doesn't seem like it would be gamebreaking, so ask your DM.

I would not call it consensus. Perhaps a slight majority.


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I'm more comfortable with it not being a consensus, so that works for me. I think it should allow the better PA bonus.


Slight necro, but relevant to me as a player with a monk aspiring to be a dragon. I'm pretty sure that, as intended, you should get a -1/+3 bonus. Why? It's called DRAGON style. You get a 50% bonus to strength on your attacks for emulating the ferocity and godlike nature of a dragon.

Also, I think we're reading too much into RAW/manufactured vs natural. As in very particular wording. A monk's IUS counts as both, right? It's pretty abstract, so maybe, to justify the better damage, we can view power attack more abstractly. Let's look at power attack as a whole. Any time you do damage and get a 50% damage bonus on strength, you get the better power attack. Two hands on a weapon = 50% bonus therefore PA bonus. A natural attack that gets the 50% bonus gets the PA bonus. With me? Okay. IUS is dumb, but counts as both for the good stuff, so why exclude them from the bonus for THAT much investment? Oh no, the monk is able to get bonuses beyond raw strength...

50% bonus equals better power attack. We've always said it worked for DS, so now we KNOW, if you let the -1/+3 go with DS, it will go with Ferocity. They're literally the same kind of bonus.

Just my opinion.


It may be your opinion, but it isn't supported with the rules. adding extra damage and setting the damage higher are not the same thing.

Scarab Sages

If you want to allow the -1/+3 ratio in your home game as a house rule, feel free. But that is not what the rules say.

Power attack only gains that ratio with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon wielded with two hands, or a primary natural attack.

A monk unarmed strike is none of those things, even with dragon style. If dragon style or dragon ferocity was meant to apply an increase power attack damage, it would say so.

A precedent, Tiger Pounce is a style feat that modifies how Power Attack works.

Liberty's Edge

While I kind of think it should be nerfed down, the idea that Monk's unarmed strikes are not "primary natural weapons" that you are suggesting is just b$*&%@$s. RAW it's definitely a corner case, and almost certainly unintended, but it works.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Wo serious thread necro. Someone bring in a cleric to channel to harm undead.

Liberty's Edge

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Oh whoops, I found it through a google search and thought it was only 3 days old. Still getting used to that 2016 thing =p

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Necro. But chiming in.

Monk Unarmed Strike is never said to be a Primary Natural Weapon, so even if it is dealing the same damage as a Primary Natural Weapon would deal (specifically 1.5x STR) that doesn't make it a primary.


As many other have stated, Monk IUS is treated as a generic Natural Weapon, not a Primary one.
The subdivision primary/secondary stated in the moster manual does not apply since the Monk IUS is a specific class feature that follow his own specific rules, witch says "Natural Weapon" and not "Primary Natural Attack"


Unarmed attacks in general fall under the Natural Weapon group, for what it's worth, so it's not just a Monk rule.


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This thread radiates a strong necromancy aura...


Chess Pwn wrote:
Well if you're playing PFS then pummeling charge has been banned. So having nice things and being able to use them aren't always the same thing.

Pretty much why i think PFS is a bust...lots of control on martials, not nearly as much on the actual powerhouse classes

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Do we need two threads discussing the same thing?

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