Question about False Focus in PFS Play


Rules Questions

101 to 115 of 115 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge

I was referring to the statement about reading everything explicitly.

Liberty's Edge

Epsilon wrote:

Just also realized something else the book only calls them as used as a material component

Alchemical Power components is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

They are considered just material components not optional material components. If they were they would call them out. If you want to go with the explicit line of reasoning.

You are once again ignoring a crucial bit of wording.

Alchemy Stuff wrote:
Alchemical Power components is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

False Focus specifically states that it lets you CAST spells, the Alchemical Power Focus sections specifically states that it ALTERS or AUGMENTS spells.

They are not part of the normal casting of the spell, they are an additional option.

And the wording "Cast" and "Alter or Enhance" are NOT the same thing. So by very nit picky RAW, it doesn't work. It doesn't say you can, so you can't.

Grand Lodge

Fomsie wrote:
Epsilon wrote:

Just also realized something else the book only calls them as used as a material component

Alchemical Power components is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

They are considered just material components not optional material components. If they were they would call them out. If you want to go with the explicit line of reasoning.

You are once again ignoring a crucial bit of wording.

Alchemy Stuff wrote:
Alchemical Power components is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

False Focus specifically states that it lets you CAST spells, the Alchemical Power Focus sections specifically states that it ALTERS or AUGMENTS spells.

They are not part of the normal casting of the spell, they are an additional option.

And the wording "Cast" and "Alter or Enhance" are NOT the same thing. So by very nit picky RAW, it doesn't work. It doesn't say you can, so you can't.

That's the problem with what your saying regardless of altering the spell you are still casting it. Because your using the focus to cast the spell. However, altering the spell doesn't prevent you from casting the spell.

Grand Lodge

Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of the divine focus (maximum 100 gp) ... etc I'm so not typing the rest.

It also says cast any spell. So that would include altering a spell. Its still a spell and it says any spell with a material component cost <= 100 gp.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Epsilon wrote:
redward wrote:

My advice: have the material components on hand regardless. If the GM rules it doesn't work, you can use the ones you've got. The rest of the time you're saving money.

Unless it's a persistent problem with a regular GM you should still come out on top and avoid a lot of eye-rolling and crossed arms from you, the GM, and/or the other players at the table.

I know. I plan on asking GM's before every game about it to see if they allow it. I know if I can get an official ruling from a higher up then I can just quote the forums and they'll go along with it. Worst case, I get tired and retrain it to a different feat. Until then however I'll argue my point.

I don't think that would fit under the re-train rules. That is a rules loophole being used( I dare say exploited) from a very old source (Armory) and a relatively new source(Inner Sea Magic). Be prepared to have a GM shoot it down, as others have said. Also, if they do say no, don't waste everyone's time by arguing and delaying the game for everyone else. The armory was a quirky source when if first came out, with several things having been corrected.

Grand Lodge

Feats are re trainable in ultimate campaign and i own the book so it should be allowed but its can be costly

Liberty's Edge

Epsilon wrote:

Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of the divine focus (maximum 100 gp) ... etc I'm so not typing the rest.

It also says cast any spell. So that would include altering a spell. Its still a spell and it says any spell with a material component cost <= 100 gp.

You keep focusing (no pun intended) on that part, but no where in anything you have quoted does it say you can replace the components to Alter or Augment a spell, only cast it.

That is the key, the rules are generally permissive, it says what you can do. You don't get to add something to what you can do unless it has wording stating that you can.

Also, as other have pointed out, Adventurer's Armory came out first, so if the author planned to have the feat grant you full access to the Alchemical Power Components they could very easily have it written to say cast or alter a spell.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fomsie wrote:
Epsilon wrote:

Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of the divine focus (maximum 100 gp) ... etc I'm so not typing the rest.

It also says cast any spell. So that would include altering a spell. Its still a spell and it says any spell with a material component cost <= 100 gp.

You keep focusing (no pun intended) on that part, but no where in anything you have quoted does it say you can replace the components to Alter or Augment a spell, only cast it.

That is the key, the rules are generally permissive, it says what you can do. You don't get to add something to what you can do unless it has wording stating that you can.

Also, as other have pointed out, Adventurer's Armory came out first, so if the author planned to have the feat grant you full access to the Alchemical Power Components they could very easily have it written to say cast or alter a spell.

Look at what I had in bold "cast any spell". Or are altered/augmented spells not spells?


Epsilon wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
zrandrews wrote:
...I would argue that the more specific rule trumps the more general rule. In this instance, the False Focus replacement is less specific than replacing your material component with a bottle of alchemists fire to augment Burning hands (extend that logic to each alchemical power component)...

Two issues:

First, why do people keep thinking it replaces the material component? It adds to the material component there is no replacing. It does add an effect and/or alter the spell though.
Second...

You see, here is where you miss it:

Quote:
Alchemical Power components is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects. What follows is a sample of
...
Quote:

And you missed it. I'm using it as a material component see the M.

Spells followed by a (M) expend the alchemist item as a material component
Material Component = True.
Burning Hands (M): One target that fails its reflex throw (your choice) catches on fire as if it has been struck by alchemist's fire.
Because of that M right there it is considered a material component for the spell.

But...You aren't using the Alchemist Item as a material component. So, the Alchemist Item can't give you a bonus. You might as well be saying that someone using Improved Trip can't be bitten by a goblin using Ankle biter because Improved Trip says you don't provoke any attacks of opportunity when you Perform the Trip Combat Maneuver.

Grand Lodge

You didn't even read my post it says you use it as a material component.
Spells followed by a (M) expend the alchemist item as a material component

Alchemical Power components is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects. What follows is a sample of these effects; your GM may allow other combinations. Spells followed by an (M) expend the alchemical item as a material component; those followed by an (F) use the item as a focus and do not expend it. In both cases, the alchemical item does not have its normal effect and does not affect any other parameters of the spell. You cannot use the same item as both a focus and a material component at the same time.

It clearly says you are using it as a material component.
The spell expends the item as a material component. It's a material component.

Grand Lodge

Okay so I bought Alchemy Manuel so I can read up on it. Looks fun too and the stuff there is a lot cheaper for doing some stuff with spells.

Alchemical Reagents
The following reagents are purified through long processes from their raw states for use in alchemical recipes.
Each alchemical reagent may also be used as an alchemical power component, augmenting the effects of certain spells when used as an additional material component. Alchemical power components were first introduced in Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer’s Armory. Using a reagent as an alchemical power component requires a number of doses of the reagent, affects only spells that meet the listed criteria, and augments only an effect the spell already produces (for example, you can use black powder as an alchemical power component only for a spell that deals energy damage). Reagents do not stack with either themselves or one another, and are expended after use.

Posted Black powder as an example.
Black powder
Price 10 gp
Weight —
Black powder is a volatile explosive and
is the primary component in fireworks
and other explosives.
Power Component
Doses 1 (10 gp); Spells evocation school
Effect +1 energy damage

At least with alchemy manual its clarified that reagents don't stack, but they also call them additional material components to the spell.


Claxon wrote:
You know, thats a good point. Now, unless there was something here on the baords that I missed, it would seem that Paizo staff assumed people were intelligent enough and understanding enought to realize that you shouldn't get something for nothing and that Eschew Materials also wouldn't allow for free usage of alchemical components that cost 1gp or less.

Or they thought that it was so clear that it didn't need a reply. After all, what intelligent person wouldn't understand that a material component is a material component? Why would people reading it ADD rules to make it not work? You're assuming your right without fact THEN arguing from that unsupported view. As you can see, you can use the fact to make a condescending comment either way, but it doesn't make it fact.

I really don't get the OMG the feat actually manages to be useful, it MUST be broken and not work! This isn't dazing spell (and THAT'S legal). It's not sacred geometry. It's not Divine Protection.

It takes a fairly unimpressive feat (there aren't that many spells that cost 1+ to 100 gp) to one that useful and fairly midline in power. Even if it is an unintended boost, it's a needed one. You'd really have to go out of your way with spell picks to make the feat not using power components worth having over the base Eschew Materials.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would allow it simply because you end up "casting" an augmented spell.

If I say I am casting my Augmented spell, the alchemical item is now a required Material Component, no different than Casting a Reach boosted Metamagic Spell now has a Required +1 Spell level. I think of it along the lines of Metamagics & it looks more clear to me.

Grand Lodge

Dreadfully sorry for the thread-necro, but as this came up in my game recently, and after reviewing the comments here and seeing how split everyone is on this, AND seeing no one from Paizo has addressed this yet, I felt compelled.

Rather than start a new thread, I'll bring this one and it's nearly 30 FAQ requests forward.

Sovereign Court

Seems perfectly clear to me.

You are using it like a material component, and the feat lets you use a focus instead. Plain average Joe reading, it works fine.

Though a couple of posters mixed up using the acid flask/liquid ice as a focus (+1 damage) which is not covered by the feat.

Also, the requirements are being able to cast arcane spells, but the benefit does not mention arcane only. The example mentions "an arcane spell" but the first sentence of the benefits of the feat say "any spell". Ie I would allow a mystic theurge or other multiclass arcane/divine/psychic to use the feat for all spells.

101 to 115 of 115 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Question about False Focus in PFS Play All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.