Question about False Focus in PFS Play


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Grand Lodge

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So it seems I either have a hard time explaining it to the GM, because it seems when I try to explain the feat and how I want to use it with Alchemical Power components It breaks into an argument. With both sides getting frustrated. I'm still new to Pathfinder and PFS play. I'm hoping if I get someone high up to either agree or disagree it can end the arguments.
Note: I've had GM's not allow me to do it and likewise I've has GM's allow me to do it.
My question though is when using an Alchemical item as a material component does it count for use with the false feat?
Essentially making it so i don't need an alchemical item to add an effect to a spell.
The definition of False Focus and Alchemical power components is below.

Example of what I tried to do until I got into an argument.

I have a Holy Symbol tattoo worth 100gp. I used Burning Hands and wanted to use false focus to add alchemist fire as a material component to the spell

Alchemist's Fire 20 gp
Burning Hands (M):
One target that fails its reflex saving throw (your choice) catches on fire as if it has been struck by alchemist's fire.

My argument:
Too me your adding a material component to a spell. Since the spell cost is under 100 gold I believe I should be able to use false focus. That way I don't actually need any alchemical items to add the effect to the spell.
Components:V,S + optional M (Alchemist's Fire worth 20gp) Total cost <= 100 gp True

Arguments against
1. I don't like therefore I won't allow it
2. I don't think it works because it doesn't say it is a material component.
3. I don't think it works because its an optional material component

Didn't know how to reply to 1 and 2. To 3 I would say it doesn't matter if it is optional it still counts as a material component.

Inner Sea Magic:
False Focus (page 10):
You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank, ability
to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of
casting, you can cast any spell with a material
component costing the value of that divine focus
(maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that
component. For example, if you use a silver holy
symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide
material components for an arcane spell if its
components are worth 25 gp or less.
The casting
of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as
normal. If the spell requires a material component
that costs more than the value of the divine focus,
you must have the material component on hand to
cast the spell, as normal.
Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a
component in arcane spells.

Adventure's Armory (page 26):
Alchemical Power components is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects. What follows is a sample of these effects; your GM may allow other combinations. Spells followed by an (M) expend the alchemical item as a material component; those followed by an (F) use the item as a focus and do not expend it. In both cases, the alchemical item does not have its normal effect and does not affect any other parameters of the spell. You cannot use the same item as both a focus and a material component at the same time.

Silver Crusade

My knee jerk reaction was to say no, but after looking at all the items in the Armory (rather decent) and the alchemy manual (pretty damn good) . The feat seems very good, especially with things like cold iron (5 GP for +1 CL for dispel checks), I think, that limiting it to one application of optional focus items per spell seems to be fair.
Otherwise you could stack cold iron (5 PG) and Myrrh (2 PG) on the same dispel magic.


I recently had a player do this at a table I was GMing. Being familiar with the feat as one of my characters has it I was simply impressed with the creative application and permitted it. None of the effects listed under the power components are game breaking after all, so why not.

Grand Lodge

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

My knee jerk reaction was to say no, but after looking at all the items in the Armory (rather decent) and the alchemy manual (pretty damn good) . The feat seems very good, especially with things like cold iron (5 GP for +1 CL for dispel checks), I think, that limiting it to one application of optional focus items per spell seems to be fair.

Otherwise you could stack cold iron (5 PG) and Myrrh (2 PG) on the same dispel magic.

I do agree with you on limiting it but for a different reason. Because it doesn't say you can use multiple items for the same spell.

The only spells it specifically says you can add multiple power components are wall of iron, wall of ice, resist energy, heroes feast glitter dust, repel vermin, black tentacles, and slow.
Example:
Wall of Ice (M):
For each flask of acid used as a power component, you may designate one 10-foot square of ice wall that, if broken through, deals 1d6 acid damage in addition to the normal cold damage.
Since this has description, which allows you to add multiple components to a spell it also implies you can't do the same for spells without the specific description.

Don't have alchemy manual yet so can't say about items from that.


Looks legit to me, but lets check to see if this is legal resources to use...

Additional Resources Page, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Magic wrote:
Feats: all feats on pages 10 and 15

...

Additional Resources Page, Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory wrote:

Only the 2nd printing of this book or the 1st printing augmented by the current errata (released 7/21/11) are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following exceptions: a pseudodragon is not legal for purchase unless you're a wizard with the Improved Familiar feat, elephants are never legal for play, and armored kilts are not legal.

...

Yep, still legit.

I think the primary confusion lies in not understanding the use of power components which is outlined on p. 26 of Adventurer's Armory. It's meant to replace the original components but if you have False Focus, then it's similar to the Sorcerer with her Eschew Materials feat. She doesn't have to use components within a certain cost to cast, False Focus just effectively raises that component cost a little bit.

It's a neat trick for a few minor perks to your spells. Not anywhere near gamebreaking. I wouldn't use this personally but I think it's kinda cool that you've found this synergy.

Grand Lodge

Tsriel wrote:

Looks legit to me, but lets check to see if this is legal resources to use...

Additional Resources Page, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Magic wrote:
Feats: all feats on pages 10 and 15

...

Additional Resources Page, Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory wrote:

Only the 2nd printing of this book or the 1st printing augmented by the current errata (released 7/21/11) are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following exceptions: a pseudodragon is not legal for purchase unless you're a wizard with the Improved Familiar feat, elephants are never legal for play, and armored kilts are not legal.

...

Yep, still legit.

I think the primary confusion lies in not understanding the use of power components which is outlined on p. 26 of Adventurer's Armory. It's meant to replace the original components but if you have False Focus, then it's similar to the Sorcerer with her Eschew Materials feat. She doesn't have to use components within a certain cost to cast, False Focus just effectively raises that component cost a little bit.

It's a neat trick for a few minor perks to your spells. Not anywhere near gamebreaking. I wouldn't use this personally but I think it's kinda cool that you've found this synergy.

I agree, when I have tried to explain it I feel like there is something lost in confusion. It just seems they don't understand what I'm trying to tell them. Then when I hand them the material to read they kind of give it a quick glance. The only person who agreed with me actually made an effort to read what I gave them.

I am bias,won't deny that, but when I say actually read I mean they took more than a few minutes before deciding.

I took because I like the idea of casting with my tattoo of Desna. Eat it monsters with my Butterfly tattoo I cast burning hands.


Epsilon wrote:

I agree, when I have tried to explain it I feel like there is something lost in confusion. It just seems they don't understand what I'm trying to tell them. Then when I hand them the material to read they kind of give it a quick glance. The only person who agreed with me actually made an effort to read what I gave them.
I am bias,won't deny that, but when I say actually read I mean they took more than a few minutes before deciding.

I took because I like the idea of casting with my tattoo of Desna. Eat it monsters with my Butterfly tattoo I cast burning hands.

From my own GM standpoint, I think the big issue I'd have with it is it's basically a work around for ever having to pay for the alchemical goods. That's kinda big. Granted, there's this:

PFSOP Guide, p.10, 1st Paragraph wrote:


An Inventory Tracking Sheet has been included at the end of this document and is to be used for tracking all purchases of 25 GPs or more, as well
as what Chronicle sheet the item was purchased from (if any) and any consumables used.

Depending on the reagent, you're not really obligated to track it. You *should* spend the coin for it, but it's an honor system kind of thing. Regardless, rules as written, it works...and it's legal.

You should probably expect to get some table variance about this as it does afford you nearly all power components for free. With the way False Focus is worded, you can stack multiple effects too. This might be up for errata at some point, but for now, have fun with it. Try to not go overboard. ~_^

Grand Lodge

That is why I'm posting this on the forums. Because table variance is to put it bluntly annoying as hell. Hoping I can get enough GM's to look at my thread and agree/disagree on this. That way I and other people don't have to deal with table-variance.

From my earlier post you can only stack certain spells that say you can stack them. Only spells that say you can stack or stack able. My example for burning hands is not because it doesn't say I can use more than one.

I still keep track of everything I spend though. (I use hero-lab)
Granted the cost is small once you start playing higher levels, but costs still add up.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm flagging this is in the wrong forum because it is a rule question and not a PFS question hopefully you can get a response by peoples FAQ it and use that for your PFS needs.

Personally I would allow it for anything 99 gold or less if the spell itself has material components listed and 100 gold if the spell itself does not have material components listed because otherwise you would go over your hundred gold limit for false focus

Grand Lodge

Earl Gendron wrote:

I'm flagging this is in the wrong forum because it is a rule question and not a PFS question hopefully you can get a response by peoples FAQ it and use that for your PFS needs.

Personally I would allow it for anything 99 gold or less if the spell itself has material components listed and 100 gold if the spell itself does not have material components listed because otherwise you would go over your hundred gold limit for false focus

I was hoping it could of been clarified for PFS play. But that's alright.

But to your part about going over 100 gold can you explain to me how that's even possible? Because to me it seems even the most general view is it would be impossible.

The only know reasoning I have seen is using this with fabricate spell, to make item worth 300 gold. Make item with raw material 1/3 the cost.
100 x 3 = 300. Beyond that spell I don't see how it possible through any reasoning.

Not trying to sound rude, but I'm curious if you could explain your line of thought so I can understand your point of view.

Liberty's Edge

I would not let False Focus be used for Alchemical Power Components that are used to enhance a spell because it is not the value of the item, but the specific nature of the item in relation to the spell. Those are an additional boon beyond the standard material requirement.

You are using the specific item to bolster the spell, and to me, False Focus isn't replicating that.

Sovereign Court

I'm not entirely sure if it should or shouldn't work. "I don't like it" is of course not a sufficient GM argument, especially in PFS. "I don't believe it's supposed to work that way" is a legitimate argument. The rules are at least somewhat vague after all, and that means the GM needs to decide how to interpret them.

A better argument against I think is this. Alchemical components are optional. You don't need them to cast the spell. False Focus allows you to bypass the need for a component. It lets you cast Burning Hands without the alchemist's fire. (Well, you always could.)

I do think the burden of proof is on the player in this case, to prove that you really can do this. Although I think it would be nice if it were true.

Grand Lodge

Ascalaphus wrote:

I'm not entirely sure if it should or shouldn't work. "I don't like it" is of course not a sufficient GM argument, especially in PFS. "I don't believe it's supposed to work that way" is a legitimate argument. The rules are at least somewhat vague after all, and that means the GM needs to decide how to interpret them.

A better argument against I think is this. Alchemical components are optional. You don't need them to cast the spell. False Focus allows you to bypass the need for a component. It lets you cast Burning Hands without the alchemist's fire. (Well, you always could.)

I do think the burden of proof is on the player in this case, to prove that you really can do this. Although I think it would be nice if it were true.

The vagueness is why I want to get an answer, especially because its for my character in PFS. Home game is a completely different matter. Since it more or less GM discretion there.

I believe I mentioned it earlier that an argument against it because it is an optional material component and adds to the spell doesn't work as an argument.

The key phrase is material component. As I said earlier Spells followed by an (M) expend the alchemical item as a material component.[\b]
The example false focus gives states, [b]For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide
material components for an arcane spell if its
components are worth 25 gp or less.

Since it is treated as a material component it should be allowed by false focus. Doesn't matter if it is optional since it says material component. You are adding a material component cost to a spell.
Actually this was kinda of the argument the GM I talked with argued to the others. Luckily he was the one everyone looked to when asking for questions.
One last thing in case someone brings it up. Please don't make an argument about the difference between "as a" and "it is." Don;t know why but one person I asked went grammatical on the phrasing, as if because of the way it is worded its not actually a material component.
Note: I'm just making arguments for my case. I am trying my best to keep thread on track.
Main reason for the thread is to gather consensus and hopefully get a higher up to make things clear, but until then I'll do my best to argue that it should be allowed.

Grand Lodge

Fomsie wrote:

I would not let False Focus be used for Alchemical Power Components that are used to enhance a spell because it is not the value of the item, but the specific nature of the item in relation to the spell. Those are an additional boon beyond the standard material requirement.

You are using the specific item to bolster the spell, and to me, False Focus isn't replicating that.

For a home game that is fine since it's usually up to GM discretion. However, I still need to argue my point of view.

Unfortunately, I disagree with your view. Since it is an optional material component it does add value to the spell, since it states Spells followed by an (M) expend the alchemical item as a material component. Because you are expending as a material component it means you lose that item. In the example alchemist's fire. When used you lose 20 gold (cost of an Alchemists fire) from casting burning hands. Therefore value has been added to that specific casting of the spell.
My problem with this, "additional boon beyond," is you are rephrasing what it does. You need to call it as it says it is an added effect by way of an optional material component. Because now it is considered a material component even if it is optional. Your phrasing would make a person thinks its not adding a material component.
False focus nowhere state: "Can be used except optional material components".

Sczarni

Short and simple; False Focus reduces the cost of material components by up to 100g if you have divine focus for up to 100g value. Can the alchemist fire be used as material component? Yes it can, therefore intention is clear. If we start splitting spell material components and non spell additional components, it might turn into real nitpicky war.

Keep in mind that these power components add effect only once, irrelevant to the number of such components otherwise illusionist spell's would be beatable only on a natural 20 (silver component), fire spells would deal additional up to +30 fire damage (saltpeper component), etc.

At least, this is my opinion on the subject.

Adam

Liberty's Edge

Once again, it is the specific nature of the item in relation to the enhancement of the spell. Acid or Alchemical Fire, etc to specifically bolster related spells. And I do not see the False Focus as replicating that.

I would go further and say that;

Alchemical Power Components wrote:
An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

That is not in the purview of False Focus. False Focus replaces the Arcane spells basic component requirement with that of a holy symbol. The Alchemical Power Components don't replace the normal components, they add to them.

You are essentially trying to get a bonus ability tacked on to the feat to allow not just the casting of the spells, but enhancing the spells as well. I do not believe that is the intent of the feat, nor does it state anywhere that it would allow anything of the sort.


My advice: have the material components on hand regardless. If the GM rules it doesn't work, you can use the ones you've got. The rest of the time you're saving money.

Unless it's a persistent problem with a regular GM you should still come out on top and avoid a lot of eye-rolling and crossed arms from you, the GM, and/or the other players at the table.

Grand Lodge

Fomsie wrote:

Once again, it is the specific nature of the item in relation to the enhancement of the spell. Acid or Alchemical Fire, etc to specifically bolster related spells. And I do not see the False Focus as replicating that.

I would go further and say that;

Alchemical Power Components wrote:
An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

That is not in the purview of False Focus. False Focus replaces the Arcane spells basic component requirement with that of a holy symbol. The Alchemical Power Components don't replace the normal components, they add to them.

You are essentially trying to get a bonus ability tacked on to the feat to allow not just the casting of the spells, but enhancing the spells as well. I do not believe that is the intent of the feat, nor does it state anywhere that it would allow anything of the sort.

It is still added as a material component. My false focus is 100gp therefore i don't need to provide a material component for spell a spell with material components costing up to but not over 100 gp.

Your still missing the main argument. No where does it say it replaces the basic component requirement it says material component costing under max 100 gp.
Second you are using false focus to:
By using a divine focus as part of
casting, you can cast any spell with a material
component costing the value of that divine focus
(maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that
component.

You are using false focus to cast the spell not to replicate item. It removes the cost of material components up to a max total of 100 gp.

Grand Lodge

Malag wrote:

Short and simple; False Focus reduces the cost of material components by up to 100g if you have divine focus for up to 100g value. Can the alchemist fire be used as material component? Yes it can, therefore intention is clear. If we start splitting spell material components and non spell additional components, it might turn into real nitpicky war.

Keep in mind that these power components add effect only once, irrelevant to the number of such components otherwise illusionist spell's would be beatable only on a natural 20 (silver component), fire spells would deal additional up to +30 fire damage (saltpeper component), etc.

At least, this is my opinion on the subject.

Adam

I agree with you Malag. I listed this earlier. There are only a few spells you can add multiple components in Adventure's Armory. The ones you listed can;t have multiple uses.

Epsilon wrote:

I do agree with you on limiting it but for a different reason. Because it doesn't say you can use multiple items for the same spell.

The only spells it specifically says you can add multiple power components are wall of iron, wall of ice, resist energy, heroes feast glitter dust, repel vermin, black tentacles, and slow.
Example:
Wall of Ice (M):
For each flask of acid used as a power component, you may designate one 10-foot square of ice wall that, if broken through, deals 1d6 acid damage in addition to the normal cold damage.
Since this has description, which allows you to add multiple components to a spell it also implies you can't do the same for spells without the specific description.

Grand Lodge

redward wrote:

My advice: have the material components on hand regardless. If the GM rules it doesn't work, you can use the ones you've got. The rest of the time you're saving money.

Unless it's a persistent problem with a regular GM you should still come out on top and avoid a lot of eye-rolling and crossed arms from you, the GM, and/or the other players at the table.

I know. I plan on asking GM's before every game about it to see if they allow it. I know if I can get an official ruling from a higher up then I can just quote the forums and they'll go along with it. Worst case, I get tired and retrain it to a different feat. Until then however I'll argue my point.

Sczarni

Fomsie wrote:


I would go further and say that;
Alchemical Power Components wrote:
An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

Let's bold another part of the text now.

If you start splitting spell material components and additional material components, it will only confuse players much more, then allowing material components to simply be material components. It's simply more easier to memorize rule like that and avoid further confusion.

Adam


Epsilon wrote:
redward wrote:

My advice: have the material components on hand regardless. If the GM rules it doesn't work, you can use the ones you've got. The rest of the time you're saving money.

Unless it's a persistent problem with a regular GM you should still come out on top and avoid a lot of eye-rolling and crossed arms from you, the GM, and/or the other players at the table.

I know. I plan on asking GM's before every game about it to see if they allow it. I know if I can get an official ruling from a higher up then I can just quote the forums and they'll go along with it. Worst case, I get tired and retrain it to a different feat. Until then however I'll argue my point.

Right. I'm just asking that you argue it here and not at the table. Which may be what you're already doing.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is a Pathfinder Rules Question, not a specific PFS question so I have flagged it to be moved.

At this point, it seems to me that this rule is vague enough for varying interpretations. Which means, barring an FAQ, expect table variation.

Grand Lodge

redward wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
redward wrote:

My advice: have the material components on hand regardless. If the GM rules it doesn't work, you can use the ones you've got. The rest of the time you're saving money.

Unless it's a persistent problem with a regular GM you should still come out on top and avoid a lot of eye-rolling and crossed arms from you, the GM, and/or the other players at the table.

I know. I plan on asking GM's before every game about it to see if they allow it. I know if I can get an official ruling from a higher up then I can just quote the forums and they'll go along with it. Worst case, I get tired and retrain it to a different feat. Until then however I'll argue my point.
Right. I'm just asking that you argue it here and not at the table. Which may be what you're already doing.

Yep I'm arguing here cause it is easier. At the table it's harder to make an argument because it takes up time and people don't have time for a debate to end and just want to play and I'm assuming have fun. :D

Liberty's Edge

No, I see your argument and find it flawed.

Show me the spell that in it's description uses Alchemical Power Components as part of it's casting. There are none. The Power Components section is an add on to the spell casting that not just uses additional materials, it enhances the spells being cast.

You are trying to argue that a single feat meant to allow Arcane Spells to be cast using a holy symbol as a focus, as divine spells are cast, should also allow you, at will, free of charge, encumbrance and hassle of manipulation of usage, to add enhancements to a host of spells as follows;

Alchemical Power Component Effects:

Burning Hands (M): One target that fails its Reflex saving throw (your choice) catches on fire as if it has been struck by alchemist's fire.
Fireball (M): One target per caster level that fails its Reflex saving throw (your choice) catches on fire as if it has been struck by alchemist's fire.
Flaming Sphere (M): Any creature damaged by a flaming sphere catches on fire as if it has been struck by alchemist's fire.
Protection from Energy (M): If cast to ward against cold, increase the amount of cold damage absorbed by 5.
Resist Energy (M): If cast to ward against cold, increase the cold resistance to 12. At caster level 7th, you may use two flasks of alchemist's fire as a power component to increase the cold resistance to 24. At caster level 11th, you may use three flasks as a power component to increase the cold resistance to 36.
Scorching Ray (F): Add a +1 circumstance bonus on your attack roll with all rays from the spell.
Scorching Ray (M): Any target damaged by a scorching ray catches on fire as if it has been struck by alchemist's fire.

Acid Arrow (M): The spell's acid lasts 1 round longer than normal.
Acid Fog (M): The fog's radius and height increase by 5 feet.
Acid Splash (F): The spell deals +1 point of damage.
Acid Splash (M): The spell lasts 1 round longer than normal.
Dispel Magic (M): Using acid as a material component while attempting to dispel or counterspell a spell or effect with the earth subtype gives you a +2 bonus on your dispel check. This bonus applies whether you are using dispel magic, greater dispel magic, or some other spell that you can use for counterspelling (for example, if you have the Improved Counterspell feat).
Grease (M): The grease is acidic and deals 1 point of acid damage per round to any creature in the area or holding the greased object.
Wall of Ice (M): For each flask of acid used as a power component, you may designate one 10-foot square of ice wall that, if broken through, deals 1d6 acid damage in addition to the normal cold damage.

Grease (M): Increase the Reflex save DC for affected creatures and the Escape Artist bonus for greased armor by 1.
Sleet Storm (M): Increase the Acrobatics DC by 1.
Wall of Iron (M): For each pot of grease used as a power component, you may designate one 10-foot square of iron wall as being slippery (+5 to Climb DCs).
Wall of Stone (M): For each pot of grease used as a power component, you may designate one 10-foot square of the spell's stone wall as being slippery (+5 to Climb DCs).

Wall of Iron (M): For each pot of bladeguard used as a power component, you may designate one 10-foot square of iron wall that has acid resistance 10 and immunity to rusting attacks.

Cone of Cold (M): The spell deals +1 point of damage per caster level.
Gentle Repose (M): The spell's duration increases to 2 days per level.
Ray of Frost (F): The spell deals +1 point of damage.
Ray of Frost (M): The spell creates an icicle of frozen water vapor that strikes the target and deals 1d3 points of piercing damage and 1 point of cold damage.
Protection from Energy (M): If cast to ward against fire, increase the amount of fire damage absorbed by 5.
Resist Energy (M): If cast to ward against fire, increase the fire resistance to 12. At caster level 7th, you may use two jars of liquid ice as a power component to increase the fire resistance to 24. At caster level 11th, you may use three jars as a power component to increase the fire resistance to 36.

Flare (M): Increase the saving throw DC of the spell by 2.
Pyrotechnics (M): When used to create fireworks, increase the DC by 1 and the blindness duration by 1 round.

Glitterdust (M): For each packet of itching powder used as a power component, you may designate one creature in the area to be affected by itching powder (DC 12).
Repel Vermin (M): The first vermin that enters the emanation is subject to the effects of itching powder (DC 15). Each packet of itching powder beyond the first means the spell affects another vermin that enters the emanation. A swarm of vermin counts as one vermin for the purpose of this effect.
Summon Swarm (M): Increase the swarm's distraction DC by 2.

Fog Cloud (M): Increase the radius of the cloud by 5 feet.
Obscuring Mist (M): The spell creates a smoky haze instead of mist. This haze cannot be dispersed by fire spells and dissipates naturally after 1 minute.
Pyrotechnics (M): Increase the radius of the cloud by 5 feet and the duration by 2 rounds.

Black Tentacles (M): For each tanglefoot bag used as a power component, you may reroll the tentacles' grapple check against one creature of your choice.
Slow (M): For each tangelefoot bag used as a power component, you may designate one slowed creature as being affected by a tanglefoot bag.
Web (M): Increase the DC of breaking free by making a combat maneuver or Escape Artist check by 1.

Alarm (M): If cast as a mental alarm, you may have the spell activate a mental and audible alarm. If cast as an audible alarm, the alarm is as loud as a thunderstone and affects creatures in a 10-foot-radius spread as if a thunderstone had detonated there.
Glyph of Warding (M): Creatures that fail their saves against a blast glyph are also deafened as if by a thunderstone.

Every one of those effects would be allowed to be applied as desired simply by picking up a single 1st level feat and a one time expenditure of 100gp at most. And you would waste no encumbrance carrying all of those items, nor would you need access to them or risk breaking, losing or having them sundered.

I can see no way that the False Focus feat was intended to be so extremely potent for such a minimal expense.

Grand Lodge

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Fomsie wrote:

No, I see your argument and find it flawed.

Show me the spell that in it's description uses Alchemical Power Components as part of it's casting. There are none. The Power Components section is an add on to the spell casting that not just uses additional materials, it enhances the spells being cast.

You are trying to argue that a single feat meant to allow Arcane Spells to be cast using a holy symbol as a focus, as divine spells are cast, should also allow you, at will, free of charge, encumbrance and hassle of manipulation of usage, to add enhancements to a host of spells as follows;

** spoiler omitted **

Every one of those effects would be allowed to be applied as desired simply by picking up a single 1st level feat and a one time expenditure of 100gp at most. And you would waste no encumbrance carrying all of those items, nor would you need access to them or risk breaking, losing or having them sundered.

I can see no way that the False Focus feat was intended to be so extremely potent for such a minimal expense.

Your argument is that it's too powerful to work how it's printed. Tough.

Is it a material component? Yes.
Does False Focus allow you to use a divine focus in place of material components? Yes.

It's that simple.

Grand Lodge

Fomsie wrote:

No, I see your argument and find it flawed.

Show me the spell that in it's description uses Alchemical Power Components as part of it's casting. There are none. The Power Components section is an add on to the spell casting that not just uses additional materials, it enhances the spells being cast.

You are trying to argue that a single feat meant to allow Arcane Spells to be cast using a holy symbol as a focus, as divine spells are cast, should also allow you, at will, free of charge, encumbrance and hassle of manipulation of usage, to add enhancements to a host of spells as follows;

** spoiler omitted **...

Its added as an optional material component. I have no idea how much more clarity you want. At the top I provided you with definitions and an example. Which I really don't want to repost. Also when you say I find your argument flawed, please tell me what part of my argument is flawed. Quote it so I have at least some understanding of what point to argue from.

No for the fun part. I find your argument flawed.
All your saying, the way I hear it is I don't like it that you get ... free of charge. Therefore I disagree. Its a material component false focus says as long as its under total cost 100 gp for materials components. It doesn't exclude optional material components. I don't understand why you think it needs to say as part of casting. It is used as a material component.
If it said theses components are used up when casting. I would agree with you if and only if it stated that, however it states that they are used as material components. They aren't just materials, they are material components. Part of a spell to add an extra effect.
Also it require 1 rank in religion granted that's also a pretty small price.
But it comes with danger since its a tattoo an erase spell on it would get rid of it. Since its on my right hind I can't wear gloves either. Not sure if I can Tattoo my forehead. Don't think that is allowed. Unless ... I shake my head back and forth in intricate patterns to cast my spell. Or a wiggle my forehead.

Side Note: I'll be gone for 4-5 hours ish, so its not that I'm done arguing I'm just at school learning computer science and stuff ...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That´s very easy.
Alchemical Power components are not covered by false focus and to be provided extra. Some are also expended on use.

Grand Lodge

claudekennilol wrote:
Fomsie wrote:

No, I see your argument and find it flawed.

Show me the spell that in it's description uses Alchemical Power Components as part of it's casting. There are none. The Power Components section is an add on to the spell casting that not just uses additional materials, it enhances the spells being cast.

You are trying to argue that a single feat meant to allow Arcane Spells to be cast using a holy symbol as a focus, as divine spells are cast, should also allow you, at will, free of charge, encumbrance and hassle of manipulation of usage, to add enhancements to a host of spells as follows;

** spoiler omitted **

Every one of those effects would be allowed to be applied as desired simply by picking up a single 1st level feat and a one time expenditure of 100gp at most. And you would waste no encumbrance carrying all of those items, nor would you need access to them or risk breaking, losing or having them sundered.

I can see no way that the False Focus feat was intended to be so extremely potent for such a minimal expense.

Your argument is that it's too powerful to work how it's printed. Tough.

Is it a material component? Yes.
Does False Focus allow you to use a divine focus in place of material components? Yes.

It's that simple.

You know what I like your explanation better. So much more concise compared to mine.

If I could give you a high five I would.

Liberty's Edge

claudekennilol wrote:

Your argument is that it's too powerful to work how it's printed. Tough.

Is it a material component? Yes.
Does False Focus allow you to use a divine focus in place of material components? Yes.

It's that simple.

It is not a material component listed in the spell description.

It is an additional system.

You can't differentiate the two? "Tough."

Saying the feat covers an additional system because it can be added to spellcasting is going beyond what is written for the feat.

Expect heavy table variation.

And I wouldn't expect this to get clarified as the False Focus feat Alchemical Power Components are covered in splat books and those are rarely addressed after printing.

Grand Lodge

Fomsie wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:

Your argument is that it's too powerful to work how it's printed. Tough.

Is it a material component? Yes.
Does False Focus allow you to use a divine focus in place of material components? Yes.

It's that simple.

It is not a material component listed in the spell description.

It is an additional system.

You can't differentiate the two? "Tough."

Saying the feat covers an additional system because it can be added to spellcasting is going beyond what is written for the feat.

Expect heavy table variation.

And I wouldn't expect this to get clarified as the False Focus feat Alchemical Power Components are covered in splat books and those are rarely addressed after printing.

But now you're simply making up rules. False Focus doesn't differentiate between optional or not. Is it powerful? Yes. But that's what it says so that's what it does.

Grand Lodge

Fomsie wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:

Your argument is that it's too powerful to work how it's printed. Tough.

Is it a material component? Yes.
Does False Focus allow you to use a divine focus in place of material components? Yes.

It's that simple.

It is not a material component listed in the spell description.

It is an additional system.

You can't differentiate the two? "Tough."

Saying the feat covers an additional system because it can be added to spellcasting is going beyond what is written for the feat.

Expect heavy table variation.

And I wouldn't expect this to get clarified as the False Focus feat Alchemical Power Components are covered in splat books and those are rarely addressed after printing.

How is it beyond what is written. It clearly states material components in both books. I need clarification, else without a proper argument it just makes you sound upset. Like one of those old people who don't give examples and just say you can't because they said so.

Scarab Sages

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FAQ'd. My guess is if there is a reply, it's going to be required material components only, not optional alchemical power components.

Grand Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:
FAQ'd. My guess is if there is a reply, it's going to be required material components only, not optional alchemical power components.

I agree, but as written it is definitely the opposite (though I doubt there will be a response for this interaction between two companion books).

Dark Archive

RAW it certainly seems to work, regardless of how powerful you feel it may/may not be the rules text of the two parts are very clearly written. Alchemical components are material components, False Focus lets you cast without needing the material components, it works.

In a home game peoples feelings of it being too powerful are fine to make house rules based on, at a PFS table the rules are clearly written and that's what counts. That said, I'm pretty sure a FAQ if answered will come down as 'required' components only like Imbicatus says.


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I think from a balance perspective if this ever clarified it will not be in favor of them working together.

While they are both referenced as material components, then intent of flase focus is to remove the normal need for material components when casting spells and substituting instead a Divine Symbol to make it appears as though you are a divine spell caster instead of an arcane one. It also has a slight benefit of saving you some gold in the case of some relatively cheap material compnents (though more expensive than is covered by a spell component pouch). The intent of False Focus was to make you look like a cleric or other divine caster instead of an arcane caster. I believe attempting to use False Focus to provide free extra effects is an abuse of the rules.

To me there is a distinction between material components required to cast the spell and material components that enhance a spell, even though they are not presented with such clarity. I believe False Focus is intended only to funciton on material components required to cast a spell.


Imbicatus wrote:
FAQ'd. My guess is if there is a reply, it's going to be required material components only, not optional alchemical power components.

Sadly I'd have to agree even though that's not what's written...

Grand Lodge

I hope it gets Faq'd just so it can stop the vagueness. Hopefully if it does happen it will include optional components. Whatever happens ill abide by it until then however ill argue my point.


Epsilon wrote:
Hopefully if it does happen it will include optional components.

I'm fairly certian it wont. Pretty much every FAQ to ever come into existence for Pathfinder has went with the less permissive interpretation of rules.

The good news for you is that unless it becomes popular in PFS and demonstrates itself to be a problem (which it likely would if it becomes popular) then it is unlikely to actualy get an FAQ since both False Focus and optional alchemical material components come from splat books which almost never get FAQ/errata.

Liberty's Edge

There is indeed a written difference that separates the Feat and the Power Components.

First we have False Focus;

False Focus wrote:
By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component.

Then we have the Power Components;

Adventurer's Armory wrote:
An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

Note the difference. The Alchemical Power Components description states that their purpose is to alter or augment a spell, not to cast it. The False Focus feat says to cast the spell, not to alter or augment it.

That is exactly as written. One covers the casting of a spell, one covers altering a spell. They are not the same thing.

The Alchemical Reagents portion goes even further as to say;

Alchemy Manual wrote:
Each Alchemical reagent may also be used as an alchemical power component, augmenting the effects of certain spells when used as an additional material component.

Which should clarify that they are not covered by the description of the False Focus feat. They are additional.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, but without clarification beyond getting my local venture captain to say it's allowed. I can only cite this thread and let the GM decide. Which is why i orginally posted this in the pfs section. Alas it got moved to rules.

Grand Lodge

Yet they are covered by the used as material component portion. Material compents are used when casting a spell or do spontaneous casters like sorceres not use material components when casting? You are to focused on the wrong part a material component is added to the spell.

Grand Lodge

Fomsie wrote:

There is indeed a written difference that separates the Feat and the Power Components.

First we have False Focus;

False Focus wrote:
By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component.

Then we have the Power Components;

Adventurer's Armory wrote:
An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell's normal effects.

Note the difference. The Alchemical Power Components description states that their purpose is to alter or augment a spell, not to cast it. The False Focus feat says to cast the spell, not to alter or augment it.

That is exactly as written. One covers the casting of a spell, one covers altering a spell. They are not the same thing.

The Alchemical Reagents portion goes even further as to say;

Alchemy Manual wrote:
Each Alchemical reagent may also be used as an alchemical power component, augmenting the effects of certain spells when used as an additional material component.

Which should clarify that they are not covered by the description of the False Focus feat. They are additional.

You're mostly right, but in both cases it's still a material component. False Focus makes no differentiation between whether it's a MC from the spell itself or whether it's a MC from some other rule. A material component is simply a material component, regardless of whether it's extra or required.

You're right in that it probably shouldn't work. It is too powerful compared to what it was intended to do. But as it's written it just works.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Suthainn wrote:
RAW it certainly seems to work, regardless of how powerful you feel it may/may not be the rules text of the two parts are very clearly written.

To be accurate such statements should read "I can read (or twist) RAW to support my position." As been seen below RAW can also be invoked to disprove your correlation.

When RAW can be invoked for both sides of a mechanics dispute, the fallback has to be RAI.

Given that the RAI of the feat was solely for Razmiran sorcerers to disguise their casting and make it appear for them to be acting like clerics. One must then see if the text supports an RAI interpretation that the feat was meant to encompass more than this. Not finding evidence for such grounding, the call has to go for the more conservative answer.

In general it's hard to find reason to not go with the general principle on any question where it's a choice that a player gains more or less power with a feat regarding magic, always go with the less.

Grand Lodge

Regardless Im using the text the feat explicitely states. Going by your rules it also means i would need to be a razmiran sorcerer to take the feat. Words like RAI and RAW are bothersome. Go by what the feat says not the flavor text for why the feat exists.


The items and that feat weren't written in mind to interact with each other in the fashion you are attempting to force them into.

Expect table variation on the tone of "no" more often than "yes" when you are trying to use them together this way.

You know it isn't intended for this and are attempting to (ab)use it anyway.

-S

Liberty's Edge

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claudekennilol wrote:

You're mostly right, but in both cases it's still a material component. False Focus makes no differentiation between whether it's a MC from the spell itself or whether it's a MC from some other rule. A material component is simply a material component, regardless of whether it's extra or required.

You're right in that it probably shouldn't work. It is too powerful compared to what it was intended to do. But as it's written it just works.

I acknowledge both are components. However, look at what the feat says versus what the power component says.

One says "cast" one says "alter". Since you wanted specific as written, that is very specific. Cast =/= Alter or augment.

Is it splitting hairs? Sure, but that is what RAW arguments generally are, and in this case that is a key difference. False Focus allows you to replace components to cast the spell, it says nothing about additional components to alter or augment the spell.

So no, as it is strictly written, it does not work.

Now personally I wish it did, it would benefit some of my casters greatly, and I believe that alchemical items are vastly overpriced in most cases. However, from a cost to value case with this particular feat, I can't even pretend to see allowing it to be the RAI in this case.


Epsilon wrote:
Regardless Im using the text the feat explicitely states. Going by your rules it also means i would need to be a razmiran sorcerer to take the feat. Words like RAI and RAW are bothersome. Go by what the feat says not the flavor text for why the feat exists.

You can try that, but don't be surprised if the rug gets pulled out from underneath your feat.

Grand Lodge

Selgard wrote:

The items and that feat weren't written in mind to interact with each other in the fashion you are attempting to force them into.

Expect table variation on the tone of "no" more often than "yes" when you are trying to use them together this way.

You know it isn't intended for this and are attempting to (ab)use it anyway.

-S

Honestly there are things ive seen people do that are way more abusive. Whats the point of something existing if not to use it and find useful ways to use it. Its pretty much an advanced eschew materials. If i really wanted to abuse it then i would be discussing using it woth the fabricate spell.

I don't like people insinuating of any sort that im trying to abuse this. Let me make it clear I belive it works and im argueing that it works. Its not because im trying to find an abusive tactic. For the spells it adds extra to spells but not enough that i would call abusive. Now if i could stack multiple alchemist fire up to 100 gold worth i would call that abusive. Adding 5d6 for free however adding just 1d6 on a failed reflex save is different. This is just one example. Don't have the book with me.
Now if you disagree with what im saying so be. All I ask is you explain your argument clearly. So that I can answer back with my own opinion. Also im only arging power components from Adventure's armory. I have no idea how the rules from the Alchemy manuel work.

Scarab Sages

Epsilon wrote:
Regardless Im using the text the feat explicitely states. Going by your rules it also means i would need to be a razmiran sorcerer to take the feat. Words like RAI and RAW are bothersome. Go by what the feat says not the flavor text for why the feat exists.

Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if a GM house-rules that you can only take false focus as a Razmiran priest. Razmir and his priests are pretty adamant about keeping their methods from becoming public knowledge, and knowing how to use a holy symbol to cast arcane spells would draw Razzmiran hit squads if they found out.

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