Michael Sayre Design Manager |
2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
Where it says that it must be used with "an attack or full attack action" should it be read "an attack, or full attack action" or "an attack (action) or full attack action"?
My understanding had been that it could be activated whenever you made a melee attack, including an Attack of Opportunity, just like Power Attack, but I've discovered that there is a fairly prevalent understanding that it can only be used with an attack action (like Vital Strike) or full attack.
Dafydd |
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Why would you be able to activate it with an AoO?
The effect lasts until your next turn, meaning it starts on your turn and the penalties and bonuses persist until your turn starts again.
Activating on a AoO would just be trying to game the system. Trying to avoid the penalty to attack during your main attacks but still gain the benefit when something is trying to hit you.
RedDogMT |
Dafydd is correct, but not for the reasons he has given.
You can only activate the feat when you take an attack action or a full-attack action. An Attack of Opportunity is neither of those actions.
If should be noted that if you use a feat like Combat Expertise in your previous turn, those penalties/bonuses do apply to the Attack of Opportunity since the affects of the feat last until your next turn.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Power Attack can be activated on an attack of opportunity, and Combat Expertise is literally just the defensive counterpart to that ability. If you can choose to swing a little more wildly for extra oomph, it would follow that you should be able to swing with a little less oomph for a bit more control. And as I noted, there's some room for interpretation in the way the ability is worded.
From a balance perspective, Combat Expertise is pretty universally regarded as terrible, an on obnoxious feat tax, and just a generally inefficient use of resources. I hadn't really agreed with that assessment, but clearly my understanding and that of the home and PFS groups I've played with differs from that expressed by a couple people here and elsewhere. Under that interpretation I could see why it garners such low regard. Truthfully though, yesterday was the first time I'd ever heard anyone express the opinion that you can't activate it on an AoO.
Aratrok |
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.
Power Attack is triggered any time you make an attack roll, and only affects actions that you take.
You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon.
Combat Expertise is triggered when you declare an attack action or a full attack action, and affects actions that you and your enemies take.
It is a defensive counterpart, but it is not identical.
EDIT: Aside, and for semantic comparison, if I say the phrase "Do you want the red or blue ball?" it's referring to a red ball or a blue ball. It is not referring to a blue ball or a "red".
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
It's triggered when you declare an attack or full attack action. An AoO being an attack should qualify it. I noted that there are two different ways of parsing the verbage in the feat.
You still have to declare when you are taking an AoO, so from a rules perspective there's no meaningful separation on whether or not an enemy's action is what allows you to take it. The enemy isn't grabbing your sword and sticking it in his own throat; he merely presents an opportunity that you can choose whether or not to take, with your DEX and feat choices determining how often you can take advantage of such openings.
**Edit**
As to the semantics; if I asked you whether you wanted a basket or a soccer ball, what am I offering you? If I said, do you want an apple or pear chips, am I offering you a choice of fresh fruit or dried, or two types of dried fruit? This would probably be less of an issue if "attack" and "attack action" weren't two different things.
Iterman |
Power Attack wrote:You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.Power Attack is triggered any time you make an attack roll, and only affects actions that you take.
Combat Expertise wrote:You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon.Combat Expertise is triggered when you declare an attack action or a full attack action, and affects actions that you and your enemies take.
It is a defensive counterpart, but it is not identical.
EDIT: Aside, and for semantic comparison, if I say the phrase "Do you want the red or blue ball?" it's referring to a red ball or a blue ball. It is not referring to a blue ball or a "red".
It seems that you don't recognize that you are adding a word to those listed in the description of combat expertise. Meanwhile, you are directly quoting the description listed under power attack. In no way does it explicitly state that the attack has to be an action, only that the full-attack must be an action, although this does seem to be implied.
Now, we can all agree that you can trip, sunder, or disarm during an AoO, and the wording for doing so is provided here:
"You can attempt to [combat maneuver] your opponent in place of a melee attack."
Notice "action" is not listed here. However, unless by some stretch of the imagination a melee attack is some specific type of action that can only be preformed outside of an attack action (I'm looking at you snap shot, which provides ranged attacks this same ability), which it clearly is not since AoOs aren't even mentioned in the description of it:
"Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attacks
With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet)."
Then the only difference between a "melee attack" and an "attack [action]," is the restriction that it must be used on characters within your weapon's reach. Now since semantics are being called into question (the importance of the word "action"), I think it is necessary to look at the wording of attacks of opportunity:
"Attacks of Opportunity
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work."
If you can agree that attacks of opportunity are actions, then combat expertise should be allowed on an AoO. If not, then my argument was all for naught lol.
So is a AoO an action? My guess is no since it's not listed as one. However, it does seems to imply that melee attacks are actions.
*Damn red balls and blue balls making my argument look like rubbish...I like yellow balls better anyways!!*