A public service announcement on stat stacking (and happy dance)


Pathfinder Society

5/5 5/55/55/5

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New FAQ on stat stacking

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?

No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

Happy dance

Shadow Lodge

And it's still possible to get Charisma to AC three times (actually four), yay.

Of course you have to be Paladin1/Oracle1 (Nature or Lore), worship Arshea and be at least level 13, and use defensive fighting with Osyluth Guile against the target of your smite.

If you did all that, your AC would be 10+Cha (instead of Dex)+Cha (As an armor bonus)+Cha (As a deflection bonus, only against the target of your smite)+Cha (As a dodge bonus, only against one target)+Defensive Fighting

Silver Crusade

Not a fan of this ruling. And I find myself saying that more and more frequently.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

New FAQ on stat stacking

Happy dance

/shrug

Doesn't bother me but I don't know if I would go around dancing for joy over it. Some might take that as rude.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

I don't like it either.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Indifferent to the ruling, but happy it was at least made. :D

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm also indifferent to the ruling, but supportive of it on principle. Down with shenanigans! Munchkins are why we can't have nice things!

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Ok I'll bite, who is actually affected by this ruling? Which builds are unusually good now ?

Shadow Lodge

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Ok I'll bite, who is actually affected by this ruling? Which builds are unusually good now ?

Anyone who has both Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall was affected, as Agile Maneuvers replaces Str with Dex and Fury's Fall adds Dex. However if they had Weapon Finesse but not Agile Maneuvers they can still use Str+Dex for their trip attack (Weapon Finesse is a choice to use Dex instead of Str, Agile Maneuvers is not.)

It would also nerf Zen Archers who have Erastil's third Evangelist boon, which adds Wis to attack and damage within 30 feet, however much like weapon finesse, it is a choice to use wisdom instead of dex to hit for the Zen Archer.

Grand Lodge

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Ok I'll bite, who is actually affected by this ruling? Which builds are unusually good now ?

It didn't make builds better, it made builds worse. I will now be retraining out of Fury's Fall on my dex-based monk for instance. The idea that a feat has the possibility of lowering your numbers with no reward doesn't sit with me, but now characters with 12+ strength and Fury's Fall lose +to trip if they take Weapon Finesse and gain nothing.

I understand why the ruling was made, but I still don't agree with it.

EDIT: Dylos is correct in the case of Weapon Finesse, but characters with Fury's Fall and Agile Maneuvers still might lose +trip, which is silly.

4/5

My MoMS/Investigator is affected (used Focused Shot and Kirin Strike), but I've been planning to train out of Monk for some time anyway. It wasn't overpowered. In fact, it wasn't particularly good.

It cost my Archaeologist Bard -1 to her Trip CMB due to the interaction of Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall.

I was also always aware that things could end up this way so I'm not particularly disappointed.

I know of at least one local Inquisitor/Zen Archer that was double-dipping Wisdom to social skills.

I don't have a problem with the clarification that you can't stack untyped ability bonuses. I do think they should just make Ability bonuses typed to simplify things.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

So the real issue is, that some feats just replace a stat, and do not give the option to use the original stat if you want to....

Well to be fair, I suspect this is more an issue with Cheliax: Empire of Devils being on of the first splatbooks.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

So the real issue is, that some feats just replace a stat, and do not give the option to use the original stat if you want to....

Well to be fair, I suspect this is more an issue with Cheliax: Empire of Devils being on of the first splatbooks.

I believe the impetus for the ruling was the Monk/sacred fist trying to double up on their wisdom bonus to AC.

As a clarification rather than a change, this will take PP to get rid of if it cost you something.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

There's also double-dipping Wisdom in some skills and abilities. I suspect this was a big reason for this ruling since those forum fights burned for a long time.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

So the real issue is, that some feats just replace a stat, and do not give the option to use the original stat if you want to....

Well to be fair, I suspect this is more an issue with Cheliax: Empire of Devils being on of the first splatbooks.

I believe the impetus for the ruling was the Monk/sacred fist trying to double up on their wisdom bonus to AC.

As a clarification rather than a change, this will take PP to get rid of if it cost you something.

Looking at the archetype, it seems they forgot to add the text "this ability works like the monk ability", but yeah, I guess this ruling is a positive thing in the long run.

4/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

So the real issue is, that some feats just replace a stat, and do not give the option to use the original stat if you want to....

Well to be fair, I suspect this is more an issue with Cheliax: Empire of Devils being on of the first splatbooks.

I believe the impetus for the ruling was the Monk/sacred fist trying to double up on their wisdom bonus to AC.

As a clarification rather than a change, this will take PP to get rid of if it cost you something.

Looking at the archetype, it seems they forgot to add the text "this ability works like the monk ability", but yeah, I guess this ruling is a positive thing in the long run.

This is my biggest problem with the ruling. It is proactive to protect against similar abilities stacking when proper design editing referencing existing abilities, or simple text would have avoiding the need for the faq (that itself raises numerous issues).

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