Advice on Unarmed Something


Advice

Sczarni

Could someone provide me with the strongest attack/damage combination possible for an Unarmed Strike build?
I don't really care what classes, I just want to be able to swing one Unarmed Strike, for big damage preferably as close to a 2H Weapon Wielder could do as a hulked out Barbarian and such.


Barbarian/bloodrager 1, dragon style, dragon ferocity, mutagenic brawler wearing brawling armor. Enchanted fist somehow, Bodywraps might work since you want 1 punch.

This is of course assuming you aren't going with pummeling style, if you go with that too then a level or two MoMS, let's you really go to town with "1" punch as it pools all your attacks together.


Yo, not sure on the exact mathematics, but if you want big, 2H like damage for Unarmed, you are looking at the Mutagenic Mauler Brawler. You are looking at a mix between Monk damage scaling and a huge damage and attack bonus to boot from the Mutagen.

Another competitor would be a Barbarian with three levels of Monk for Monastic Legacy.

Both builds going Power Attack and Dragon Style, of course.

Going for Orc Bloodline Eldritch Heritage seals the deal.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Barbarian/bloodrager 1, dragon style, dragon ferocity, mutagenic brawler wearing brawling armor. Enchanted fist somehow, Bodywraps might work since you want 1 punch.

This is of course assuming you aren't going with pummeling style, if you go with that too then a level or two MoMS, let's you really go to town with "1" punch as it pools all your attacks together.

Uncertain that the Barbarian levels help. You only get +2 to damage, going straight Brawler gets you bigger US dice which means better Vital Strikes when you get enlarged by the Greater Eldritch Heritage - Orc.

For comparison, a Barb 1/Braw 19, when enlarged, deals 3d8 damage. A Braw 20 deals 4d8. That's' +4.5 damage on average. The Barb dip only gives you +2.


But the barb dip is a +2 early, so you'll only notice the difference every level that the unarmed strike damage would have gone up but didn't. and it's a +2 to your attack rolls as well. Also the +2 is for all attacks if you ever decide on making a full attack.


The Monk has the unique advantage of the special Monk Unarmed Strike clause that by RAW would grant the first unarmed strike in a round not only double strength but two-handed power attack.

Aside from Pummeling Style (or possibly with it)...

A Bloodrager / Dragon Disciple / Whatever Monk can work Dragon Style like a monster, with +4 strength from raging and another +4 strength from Disciple. The Blood Conduit archetype for the rager would also let you cast a spell as a swift action after your punch... so its one big punch full of lightning. A standard attack could be 2xSTR, two-handed Power Attack, and a swift action shocking grasp.

EDIT: oh yeah, there's also Druid/Monk wildshaping into an earth elemental, casting Strong Jaw on his already oversized elemental unarmed strike, and then vital striking with it. Dragon Style with the elemental strength bonus as well, and a monk's robe to make the unarmed strike even bigger.


Chess Pwn wrote:
But the barb dip is a +2 early, so you'll only notice the difference every level that the unarmed strike damage would have gone up but didn't. and it's a +2 to your attack rolls as well. Also the +2 is for all attacks if you ever decide on making a full attack.

The Barb dip at character level 2 is not having Brawler's Flurry. Not worth it. Better advance as Brawler.


BadBird wrote:
The Monk has the unique advantage of the special Monk Unarmed Strike clause that by RAW would grant the first unarmed strike in a round not only double strength but two-handed power attack.

wat. that's literally the benefit of dragon style. it cannot be baked in by raw.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
But the barb dip is a +2 early, so you'll only notice the difference every level that the unarmed strike damage would have gone up but didn't. and it's a +2 to your attack rolls as well. Also the +2 is for all attacks if you ever decide on making a full attack.
The Barb dip at character level 2 is not having Brawler's Flurry. Not worth it. Better advance as Brawler.

Then dip lv3 and have your flurry at level 2. Just because it's different and you feel it's not worth it doesn't mean that it wouldn't allow and make a good 1 big punch.


Secret Wizard wrote:
BadBird wrote:
The Monk has the unique advantage of the special Monk Unarmed Strike clause that by RAW would grant the first unarmed strike in a round not only double strength but two-handed power attack.
wat. that's literally the benefit of dragon style. it cannot be baked in by raw.

It's the Power Attack part - because a Monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural attack for effects that enhance it, then a monk's first Dragon Style unarmed strike in a round is a 'natural attack with a 1.5xSTR bonus' as far as Power Attack goes. So 1.5xPowerAttack.

For anyone without that Monk clause, Dragon Style does nothing for Power Attack. It's not a huge difference, but it's there.


Half-giant Aegis Archetype - War Hulk

You get a Slam attack at 1d8, which increases to 2d8 at 6th, 3d8 at 11th, and 4d8 at 16th. Combine that with Improved Natural Attacks, Size Increase Customizations, and Vital Strike line of feats, and you will be pumping out MASSIVE damage with a single punch.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
But the barb dip is a +2 early, so you'll only notice the difference every level that the unarmed strike damage would have gone up but didn't. and it's a +2 to your attack rolls as well. Also the +2 is for all attacks if you ever decide on making a full attack.
The Barb dip at character level 2 is not having Brawler's Flurry. Not worth it. Better advance as Brawler.
Then dip lv3 and have your flurry at level 2. Just because it's different and you feel it's not worth it doesn't mean that it wouldn't allow and make a good 1 big punch.

Just saying that you are delaying your US increases so you deal less damage when enlarged, and that applies for the whole game. It's not about what I like, it's about optimization.

Quote:
It's the Power Attack part - because a Monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural attack for effects that enhance it, then a monk's first Dragon Style unarmed strike in a round is a 'natural attack with a 1.5xSTR bonus' as far as Power Attack goes. So 1.5xPowerAttack.

Also applies to the Brawler. Unless he cares about Pummeling Charge (which he clearly doesn't, because he asked for TWF-like damage, not Pounce-like mobility), then staying full Mutagenic Mauler Brawler is still the answer. More damage than any Monk out there.

Quote:
EDIT: oh yeah, there's also Druid/Monk wildshaping into an earth elemental, casting Strong Jaw on his already oversized elemental unarmed strike, and then vital striking with it. Dragon Style with the elemental strength bonus as well, and a monk's robe to make the unarmed strike even bigger.

Though call, this is more like a Vital Striking Barbarian that is good for one big hit... you can go full Druid for that, with 3 levels of Monk for Monastic Legacy. That allows you to remain in Wild Shape long enough, but lowers BAB and damage.

I think that just in terms of raw damage, I prefer Eldritch Heritage Orc for the enlarge effect.


Sohei monks. This is due to the fact that they can flurry in armor, and they have weapon training (with the proper name and says that it works like the fighter class feature)

Armor might not seem like that big a deal for offense, but it is actually the key towards making the sohei a power house. The armor is an item slot in its own right, and allows you to move your AC enhancement (which would usually come from bracers of armor) into a different slot

First, there is an armor property, brawling armor, which should be a key tip for any unarmed build that can use armor. This property gives a straight untyped +2 to attack and damage on unarmed strikes.

Now, weapon training and the newly opened hand slot also goes together nice. This is because it qualifies you (due to its wording and confirmation from related FAQs) for gloves of dueling, which gives another untyped +2 to attack and damage.

Altogether that is a +7 to attack and damage (which makes the fact that their unarmed damage dice do not scale- static bonuses are almost always more important than dice). A fighter might get a +8 (since they have armor and weapon trianing too), but this has more saves, skills, and other tricks (for example, sohei have the ability to always act in the surprise round, even if they are clueless, and they get 1/2 their level in initiative).

Other tricks- Grabbing a spell like ability from Qinggong (ki leech is cool if you are ok with evil- it is a 0 ki sla that you can spam constantly and then use to get ki back from kills) qualifies you for casting feats like arcane strike (so another +1-+5 damage for a swift action). Of course dragon style is the choice for raw numbers, although pummeling style gives it to you more reliably.


lemeres wrote:

Sohei monks. This is due to the fact that they can flurry in armor, and they have weapon training (with the proper name and says that it works like the fighter class feature)

Armor might not seem like that big a deal for offense, but it is actually the key towards making the sohei a power house. The armor is an item slot in its own right, and allows you to move your AC enhancement (which would usually come from bracers of armor) into a different slot

First, there is an armor property, brawling armor, which should be a key tip for any unarmed build that can use armor. This property gives a straight untyped +2 to attack and damage on unarmed strikes.

Now, weapon training and the newly opened hand slot also goes together nice. This is because it qualifies you (due to its wording and confirmation from related FAQs) for gloves of dueling, which gives another untyped +2 to attack and damage.

Altogether that is a +7 to attack and damage (which makes the fact that their unarmed damage dice do not scale- static bonuses are almost always more important than dice). A fighter might get a +8 (since they have armor and weapon trianing too), but this has more saves, skills, and other tricks (for example, sohei have the ability to always act in the surprise round, even if they are clueless, and they get 1/2 their level in initiative).

Other tricks- Grabbing a spell like ability from Qinggong (ki leech is cool if you are ok with evil- it is a 0 ki sla that you can spam constantly and then use to get ki back from kills) qualifies you for casting feats like arcane strike (so another +1-+5 damage for a swift action). Of course dragon style is the choice for raw numbers, although pummeling style gives it to you more reliably.

At level 20? You don't really want to compare that +7 to attack and damage with a Mutagenic Mauler.


Except at levels 5-7 and 9-11 and etc the damage is the same, so many levels where you're not missing out on anything in the damage die.
1d6(3.5)-> 1d8(4.5) that's 1 different, rage is better
1d8(4.5)-> 2d6(7) that's 2.5 different, .5 better than rage. but rage gives HP too and a better hit chance. So up until lv8 I'd say the level of rage is better than the bigger damage die.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just wanted to throw in a honorable mention for a vital striking cave druid in Crystal Ooze shape.

Otherwise Sacred Fist with a dip in Master of Many Styles monk to pick up Pummeling Charge earlier. Note Pummeling Charge is banned from PFS, not sure if that is a factor.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Also applies to the Brawler.

Oh, missed that on Brawler, interesting.

With Shaping Focus covering 4 Monk levels you can become a huge elemental by 12; so by level 12 with a Monk's Robe and Monastic Legacy, it would be a level 12 Monk unarmed strike adjusted for 'huge' and then bumped up to 'colossal' by Strong Jaw... hmm. 2d6, bumps to 3d6 large, 4d6 huge, 6d6 gargantuan, 8d6 colossal. 16d6 vital strike? At least if you can fit into the room...


Regular Monk/Druid - 12d8 Unarmed Strike

Vital Striking Monk Druid - 48d8 Unarmed Strike

Conqueror Ooze - 14d8 Unarmed Strike (Well Slam, but close enough with feral combat training)

Vital Striking Conqueror Ooze - 56d8 Unarmed Strike

Vital Striking, Furious Finish Conqueror Ooze with fatigue Immunity - 448 damage with change (static mods which I haven't put in, because, why, at this point.)

*RAW it works because the growth domain ability is a Su ability and thus stacks with beast shape polymorph spell ability* Enlarged Vital Striking, Furious Finish Conqueror Ooze with fatigue Immunity - 672 damage and change.

Of course this is assuming only one source of actual size increase and one source of *as if they were x sizes larger*, which is not RAW, but really, if you can size increases like that, it isn't sporting anymore.

prototype00


A monk/paladin hybrid with smite evil could probably put out some damage, especially with vital strike feats.

Shadow Lodge

A MoMS2/SF18 would probably be up there, if not at the top. Combine Righteous Might with Divine Power and fuse Pummeling Charge with Dragon Style.


Personally I think a barbarians rage power boosts its hit points and strength massively, making it the equal of someone even a few levels higher. For this reason I believe a barbarian would be the superior choice.

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