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As the title suggests, I am trying to figure out whether a grappler is still considered to threaten whomever/whatever he is grappling. I ask this so I can find out whether he can benefit/provide flanking bonuses with a legal flanking ally.
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
Its a little ambiguous. They can't make AoOs which is the main point of threatening a square. Threatened squares is also defined under Attacks of Opportunity. I think this infers that you do not threaten while you are grappling, even if the text doesn't outright say it.
I've seen mixed opinions on it. The question I guess is how is threaten defined? Is there a description in the book somewhere? I've heard it consists if being able to make an attack into a square which a successful grapple check will allow you to do. However does it require that you are able to do this when it is not your turn too?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#attacks-of-opportunity
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
That is how it is listed in the book. Under attacks of opportunity is threatened squares defined. Actually re-reading it now, threaten is defined as squares you can make a melee attack even when it is not your turn. Since grappled makes it so you cannot take AoOs then you do not threaten squares while grappled. (Both grappler and graplee gain the grappled condition).
So without some kind of special ability one does not threaten while grappling it would seem. Just seemed like a grappler would still threaten the one he has grappled.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
The grappled condition doesn't stop you making melee attacks, so you threaten as normal. If you threaten you can allow another to get flanking bonuses (Whether you can gain flanking bonuses depends on whether your ally threatens or not).
Whilst the grapple rules explicitly prohibit you from making Attacks of Opportunity, they say nothing about preventing you from flanking/threatening therefore the default rules apply.
Immediately reading from those two quotes, it seems to me that Threatening a square is indifferent from Attacks of Opportunity. Making a melee attack is not the same as being able to make an AoO.
Depends on whether you read " even when it is not your turn " as a necessary condition, or a statement that you Still threaten those spaces regardless of whose turn it is.
It makes logical sense to assume that flanking is not possible if one flanker cannot make AoOs. Fits with the flavor. But I haven't seen that in the rules thus far.
I think they'd still provide flanking. They threaten, they can make a melee attack on their turn.
Unless the other person involved is a rogue trying to get sneak attack I don't think it makes much of a difference either way.
Unless the other person involved is a rogue trying to get sneak attack I don't think it makes much of a difference either way.
That's not true. It's still a +2 to Attack and that +2 to Attack would actually help the grappler as well considering you add bonuses from effects (In this case flanking) to your CMB roll.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
And this is what I meant. There are a good number that believe you can flank while grappling and quite a few that believe you cannot.
In regards to logic and flavour, I'd imagine trying to keep hold of someone (who is unlikely to be co-operating by staying still) is sufficiently distracting that you are unable to keep all your attention on his mate trying to stick you in the ribs...
Either way, it sounds like the Tetori Monk would be one option to overcome this obstacle.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.
The Grappled condition specifically says you cannot take AoOs, but it doesn't say that you don't threaten squares. If you can attack a square, you threaten it. If you threaten it, you can flank. If you flank, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls. Combat Maneuvers, including grapple checks, are attack rolls.
It should be noted that since the controlling character in a grapple can usually only attack the creature it is grappling (since it takes a standard action to maintain the grapple), he would only threaten the grappled creature, not other adjacent squares.
But the controlling character isn't required to take that standard action and maintain the grapple. He could drop the grapple as a free action and make a melee attack on anyone. Doesn't that count for threatening?
Well, of course he's not required to take the action to maintain the grapple, but if he doesn't the grapple is over so it really isn't relevant. Resume combat as normal.
The relevance is, I could drop the grapple and attack. Therefore (?) I threaten anyone in my reach. Therefore, I can grant flanking to all my allies against all these enemies, even if I don't drop the grapple.
If you are the controlling grappler you can only attack the creature you are grappling. Therefor you don't threaten any squares besides that one. If you drop the grapple, you immediately resume threatening all adjacent squares. If you don't drop the grapple, you don't. Just because you *could*, doesn't mean you *do*.
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Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.The grappled condition doesn't stop you making melee attacks, so you threaten as normal. If you threaten you can allow another to get flanking bonuses (Whether you can gain flanking bonuses depends on whether your ally threatens or not).
Whilst the grapple rules explicitly prohibit you from making Attacks of Opportunity, they say nothing about preventing you from flanking/threatening therefore the default rules apply.
Immediately reading from those two quotes, it seems to me that Threatening a square is indifferent from Attacks of Opportunity. Making a melee attack is not the same as being able to make an AoO.
Depends on whether you read " even when it is not your turn " as a necessary condition, or a statement that you Still threaten those spaces regardless of whose turn it is.
It makes logical sense to assume that flanking is not possible if one flanker cannot make AoOs. Fits with the flavor. But I haven't seen that in the rules thus far.
Let's analyze that logic chain a bit more.
We can start with the grappled condition, a condition that applies to grappled and grappler:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
So a Grappled creature can't make AoO, right?
What is the basic requirement to threaten someone?
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack,
Notice I have removed the last part as I think that we don't need to discuss it.
Now, some simple check:
A) Yhe grappler turn. He threaten the grappled? Yes, he can make a melee attack in his square.
B) Not the grappler turn. He threaten the grappled? No, as he can't make a melee attack in the grappled square. He can't take AoO so he don't threaten [barring special abilities].
"Threatening someone" isn't a check that you do once and it persist forever, it is a check that you do at the moment in which you check teh attack modifiers. That your now deceased companion was threatening the target until 2 points of initiative ago don't matter, that he was threatening the square before his last move or before his weapon was sundered don't matter, what matter is his current condition and ability to make a melee attack if the opportunity was presented. Something that a grappler can't do.
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For those who say that you must be able to make an AOO in order to threaten; when you have reached your AOO limit for the turn do you cease to threaten?
If Fred the Fighter uses his AOO does he no longer provide flanking for Ronnie the Rogue?
For those who say that you must be able to make an AOO in order to threaten; when you have reached your AOO limit for the turn do you cease to threaten?
If Fred the Fighter uses his AOO does he no longer provide flanking for Ronnie the Rogue?
That's an excellent question. Answering it would settle both arguments, since you can only flank what you threaten. Personally, I go with the interpretation that threatening is independent of AoO's, so yes, he still provides. But that opens a new pathway to research...
It is an interesting question, in trying to find the answer to if you are out of AOO for the turn do you still threaten, I came across this too.
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Flat-footed creatures can not make attacks of opportunity. Do you still allow them to provide flanking bonuses?
It is an interesting question, in trying to find the answer to if you are out of AOO for the turn do you still threaten, I came across this too.
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Flat-footed creatures can not make attacks of opportunity. Do you still allow them to provide flanking bonuses?
While valid, I think that's a slightly worse example since it's directly addressed in the description of the flat-footed condition, along with exceptions, and any ruling made would be based more on supposition and relating it the previous question. It might at least "hint" towards an answer, though.
While valid, I think that's a slightly worse example since it's directly addressed in the description of the flat-footed condition, along with exceptions, and any ruling made would be based more on supposition and relating it the previous question. It might at least "hint" towards an answer, though.
They are both addressed equally.
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
The only significant difference is flat-footed loses all dex to AC, while grappled gets a -4 dex penalty and -2 to attacks.
While valid, I think that's a slightly worse example since it's directly addressed in the description of the flat-footed condition, along with exceptions, and any ruling made would be based more on supposition and relating it the previous question. It might at least "hint" towards an answer, though.It is an interesting question, in trying to find the answer to if you are out of AOO for the turn do you still threaten, I came across this too.
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Flat-footed creatures can not make attacks of opportunity. Do you still allow them to provide flanking bonuses?
No, it is going toward the question of is the ability to make AOOs a prerequisite for threatening, or are they independent.
While valid, I think that's a slightly worse example since it's directly addressed in the description of the flat-footed condition, along with exceptions, and any ruling made would be based more on supposition and relating it the previous question. It might at least "hint" towards an answer, though.They are both addressed equally.
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.The only significant difference is flat-footed loses all dex to AC, while grappled gets a -4 dex penalty and -2 to attacks.
I think the intent of Flat Footed is that you pretty much can't do anything while in that state. The rules, however, are not as clear as they could be.
...An attempt to clarify once more.
Asking whether a character that has spent their AoO can still threaten squares is a prime example of whether threatening is dependent on ability to AoO.
Asking whether a flat-footed character threatens is more indirect; It can or cannot, depending on the answer above. Answering this question may hint to the answer of the first question, but does not logically prove it. So it's slightly less helpful. If an official answered this second question, it would probably be pointed at by every player to support their case; but it would only be truly, absolutely confirmed for that one condition.
Additionally, you also threaten if you are flat-footed; that is to say flat-footed only prevents making AoOs, it does not prevent you from threatening. Other things such as not yet being armed may prevent you from threatening, but not just being flat-footed. As further support for this, consider Combat Reflexes. It only allows you to make AoOs while flat-footed. If you didn't threaten just because you are flat-footed, Combat Reflexes doesn't take away that prohibition; it just takes away the prohibition against AoOs. Therefore, in order for Combat Reflexes to properly allow you to make AoOs while flat-footed, you must threaten while flat-footed.
I disagree with this. I think that having the ability to make an AoO into the square is what makes you threaten it. If you can not make AoOs due to being flat-footed or grappled, then you should not threaten squares, because you cannot make attacks into those squares at the moment.
On the other hand, I don't think you must have an available AoO left in the turn to threaten. A creature doesn't know if you have combat reflexes or not, so the fact that you might be able to attack into that square is enough to threaten.
I am unsure how much RAW support my position has. That is kind of the point of the thread. I see the Attacks of Opportunity section defining the general case. Generally, in a combat, you can make attacks of opportunity, and threaten the squares adjacent to you as a result. Flat-footed and grappled specifically change this, to say that you can not make Attacks of Opportunity. I reason that because threatened squares is defined in the context of Attacks of Opportunity, if you are prohibited from taking an AoO you do not threaten squares.
There is no RAW to support your position. Threatened squares may be defined under AoO, but they are not exclusive to AoOs as other rules elements call back to them; flanking being just one. Threatened square is defined as a square into which you may make an attack and goes on to clarify that it counts as being threatened even if not on your turn (since you can't normally make an attack out of your turn). How can threatened square be contingent on making an AoO if making an AoO is contingent on the square being threatened? The square must be threatened to make the AoO, otherwise you cannot make an AoO. To say that it is threatened because you can make an AoO into it is putting the cart before the horse; you're bootstrapping. Therefore, threatened squares are threatened regardless of capacity to make an AoO and are based solely on your capacity and potential to make an attack during your turn. Only things like being paralyzed or disarmed which prohibit actions can deny you your threatening capacity (and, by extension, your AoO capacity). But other rules elements may take away your AoO potential while leaving threatening untouched.
So you have no problem with a flat-footed character who is surprised in a surprise round providing flanking for their allies even though they are completely and utterly surprised?
Even not in a surprise round, if they haven't had a chance to act yet in the combat (flat-footed), but happen to have a weapon ready (gauntlet/IUS/bite/whatever) they can threaten and provide flanking even though they can't even get dex to AC yet?
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That's an excellent question. Answering it would settle both arguments, since you can only flank what you threaten. Personally, I go with the interpretation that threatening is independent of AoO's, so yes, he still provides. But that opens a new pathway to research...For those who say that you must be able to make an AOO in order to threaten; when you have reached your AOO limit for the turn do you cease to threaten?
If Fred the Fighter uses his AOO does he no longer provide flanking for Ronnie the Rogue?
That is a good example of how AOOs do not infer threatening or flanking.
However, I would not be too quick to say that threatening is independent of AoO's. In order to make an AOO, you must threaten the square. The difference is that the term 'threatening' is not exclusive to AOO.
The whole threaten/AOO is a conversation that he been done many times on these boards and I believe a few of them have enough FAQ tags for Paizo to take notice. I wish they could release FAQ on it.
Tarantula, it doesn't matter if we have a problem with a flat-footed character who is surprised providing flanking. This is the rules forum, not the "how would we like the rules to be" forum.
1) Threatening is not dependent upon the ability to make an AoO. This has been clearly demonstrated in the rules earlier in this thread.
2) There is nothing in the flat-footed rules that states you do not threaten.
Does that make sense? Probably not, but quite a few rules "don't make sense". House rule it if you don't like it.
3) There is nothing in the grapple rules that states you do not threaten.
Summary: If you are flat-footed or grappled you threaten even if you cannot make an AoO because the ability to threaten, by rule, is not dependent upon the ability to make an AoO.
Tarantula, it doesn't matter if we have a problem with a flat-footed character who is surprised providing flanking. This is the rules forum, not the "how would we like the rules to be" forum.
1) Threatening is not dependent upon the ability to make an AoO. This has been clearly demonstrated in the rules earlier in this thread.
2) There is nothing in the flat-footed rules that states you do not threaten.
Does that make sense? Probably not, but quite a few rules "don't make sense". House rule it if you don't like it.
3) There is nothing in the grapple rules that states you do not threaten.Summary: If you are flat-footed or grappled you threaten even if you cannot make an AoO because the ability to threaten, by rule, is not dependent upon the ability to make an AoO.
I understand the point of the rules forum. I am saying that if we take threaten as separate from AoO, then a flat-footed character who has a weapon ready (such as IUS) threatens and can provide flanking even though they haven't had a chance to act yet.
1) This has not been clearly demonstrated.
"Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn." If you cannot make a melee attack into the square, then you don't threaten it. I'll withdraw the surprise example, as surprised characters are don't get to act. Therefore, they cannot make a melee attack in that round. However, a flat-footed opponent who has not yet gone in the first round of normal combat, according to you does threaten squares, even though they cannot yet attack into those squares.
2) Agreed. It states you cannot make an AoO. If you cannot make an AoO how can you threaten a square? You can't attack into the square so you shouldn't threaten it.
3) Same as 2. You can't make an AoO. If you can't attack into the square (when its not your turn) then you don't threaten the square (when its not your turn).
Summary: There is no threat if you cannot make an AoO, which is why threatened squares are listed under Attacks of Opportunity. If you can't make an attack when it is not your turn, then you also shouldn't threaten when it is not your turn.
Tarantula,
Is it your contention then that once you have used your AOO for the round you no longer threaten?
Tarantula,
Is it your contention then that once you have used your AOO for the round you no longer threaten?
I think the capability of making an AoO into the square is what matters. Not having an available AoO to make. I.E. While grappled, you are expressly prohibited from making AoOs at all. Therefore, you cannot threaten any squares.
I think the capability of making an AoO into the square is what matters. Not having an available AoO to make. I.E. While grappled, you are expressly prohibited from making AoOs at all. Therefore, you cannot threaten any squares.Tarantula,
Is it your contention then that once you have used your AOO for the round you no longer threaten?
But your whole argument is contingent on the ability to make AOOs.
The character being flanked doesn't know if the opponent is or is not surprised. Characters have no awareness of "initiative order" or "flat-footed"; those are tools for us, the players. If you stepped between two opponents, you'd keep your eye on both of them because you don't know if they are ready to react and rip you a new one or if you caught them totally off guard. Thus, you are flanked and they get a bonus because your head is on a swivel trying to keep an eye on both of them to protect yourself.
I agree that characters have no awareness of initiative order.
I disagree that character's can't recognize when another is "flat-footed". I think that just about all of the conditions listed in the glossary are obvious when they are in effect. The only possible ones that are not obvious is dead/dying/unconscious/disabled as those rely on hitpoint totals to differentiate specifically.But the square needs to be threatened in order to make an AoO. If you need to be able to make an AoO into the square in order for it to be threatened, but it must first be threatened in order to make an AoO, then you can never make an AoO and you never threaten... ever; Catch 22.
Are you capable of making an attack of opportunity? Yes? Then you threaten squares. Are you prohibited from taking an AoO? (Grappled, Flat-footed, Paralyzed, etc? Then you don't threaten.
Also same as 2; you need to threaten in order to make an AoO so if you don't threaten, you can't make an AoO. If you can't make an AoO, you can't attack. If you can't attack, you don't threaten. Thus you have an unbreakable loop that prohibits both threatening and AoOs wholesale.
Same as above. If you are barred from taking an AoO, how can you threaten?
Does a pinned creature still threaten?
But your whole argument is contingent on the ability to make AOOs.I think the capability of making an AoO into the square is what matters. Not having an available AoO to make. I.E. While grappled, you are expressly prohibited from making AoOs at all. Therefore, you cannot threaten any squares.Tarantula,
Is it your contention then that once you have used your AOO for the round you no longer threaten?
Creatures don't know if you have combat reflexes or not. They don't know if you can make 1 or 5 AoOs a round. It is contingent on being allowed to make an AoO, which grappled/flat-footed prohibit.
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It should be noted that since the controlling character in a grapple can usually only attack the creature it is grappling (since it takes a standard action to maintain the grapple), he would only threaten the grappled creature, not other adjacent squares.Seems to me that it the grappler threatens the grappled creature then someone outside the grapple should be able to at the very least gain flanking against the grappled creature.
Thematically it makes sense too. Here you hold 'em while I stab 'em.
That is called a Pin. "Grappled" in Pathfinder isn't a wrestling grapple, it is someone holding you from a arm.
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There is no RAW to support your position. Threatened squares may be defined under AoO, but they are not exclusive to AoOs as other rules elements call back to them; flanking being just one. Threatened square is defined as a square into which you may make an attack and goes on to clarify that it counts as being threatened even if not on your turn (since you can't normally make an attack out of your turn). How can threatened square be contingent on making an AoO if making an AoO is contingent on the square being threatened? The square must be threatened to make the AoO, otherwise you cannot make an AoO. To say that it is threatened because you can make an AoO into it is putting the cart before the horse; you're bootstrapping. Therefore, threatened squares are threatened regardless of capacity to make an AoO and are based solely on your capacity and potential to make an attack during your turn. Only things like being paralyzed or disarmed which prohibit actions can deny you your threatening capacity (and, by extension, your AoO capacity). But other rules elements may take away your AoO potential while leaving threatening untouched.So you have no problem with a flat-footed character who is surprised in a surprise round providing flanking for their allies even though they are completely and utterly surprised?
Even not in a surprise round, if they haven't had a chance to act yet in the combat (flat-footed), but happen to have a weapon ready (gauntlet/IUS/bite/whatever) they can threaten and provide flanking even though they can't even get dex to AC yet?
Actually the flat footed in the surprise round part is easy to resolve,even with the test proposed by the "AoO don't matter" crowd, thankfully.
At the moment in which the the flanked condition is checked, the Flat footed character would be able to attack if it was his turn? No, because he is surprised, and Surprise say: "Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round."
That has a strange secondary effect if we take their interpretation as the valid way to verify if someone is threatened: A surprised guy with combat reflexes can't make AoO but he don't threaten as he couldn't attack if it was his turn.
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Tarantula, it doesn't matter if we have a problem with a flat-footed character who is surprised providing flanking. This is the rules forum, not the "how would we like the rules to be" forum.
1) Threatening is not dependent upon the ability to make an AoO. This has been clearly demonstrated in the rules earlier in this thread.
Not really. A interpretation was given, but it is not automatically valid.
2) There is nothing in the flat-footed rules that states you do not threaten.
Does that make sense? Probably not, but quite a few rules "don't make sense". House rule it if you don't like it.
No, it is in the Surprise rules.
I think that the AoO part matter and a guy with combat reflex threaten even if surprised (he would have problems making AoO otherwise), but he clearly fail teh text proposed by the "AoO don't matter" position.
3) There is nothing in the grapple rules that states you do not threaten.
True, there is only a piece saying that you can't take AoO.