A Newbie perspective - learning resources

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

It absolutely needs to be presented better at some point, but for me it's not a high priority.

For some of us, it is.

There may be tons of information out there describing how everything works, but it is badly organized and cluttered with extraneous information. A simple answer to "What will this armor or feat actually do?" should not require looking up 3 different player-generated unofficial documents on different websites, and should not require recognizing that quite a bit of the official information presented in the actual game does not apply because the armor/feat/whatever is not +3.

There are all kinds of things that don't work at all or break every day. Those need to be dealt with before making the tooltips easier to understand in a complex game.

[Nihimon]

<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:

DeciusBrutus wrote:

It feels like people want a short explanation that covers everything. If that were possible, the system wouldn't have the depth to keep people engaged for a long time.

I would like the abundance of people stating they don't understand one of the fundamental concepts of the system to be recognized as a sign that the decidedly non-short answers that are available are not sufficient.

A significant number of people who don't understand the Keywords are getting in their own way by thinking the Keywords themselves mean something. The short answer they keep seeing doesn't tell them "what effect does the Volatile Keyword have", so they think the answer is insufficient. In truth, the short answer is sufficient, but the questioner's expectations aren't being met.

There can be a much longer answer about the Keywords system, but until that first epiphany occurs, it would be more likely to confuse than to illuminate.

[Tyveil]

TEO Cheatle wrote:

I think GW needs to have a better tutorial that at least gives everyone a basic idea, then they need better tool tips that are smart, that tells you which keywords are matching, as well as telling what bonuses you get.

For instance, lets say I am Archer level 4, and I am looking at Soldier's Chainmail +1, and +2, I should be able to mouse over them and see that certain keywords are lit up. Furthermore, it should also indicate the bonuses you get in a + format, like so:

Soldier's Chainmail +1
Tier 1 Medium Armor; grants keywords based on upgrade: Medium (+0), Military (+1), Flexible (+2), Supple (+3)
+110 Hit Points
+42 Power
+2 Fortitude Defense
+4 Reflex Defense
+2 Afflicted, Bleeding, and Exhausted Recovery

Soldier's Chainmail +2
Tier 1 Medium Armor; grants keywords based on upgrade: Medium (+0), Military (+1), Flexible (+2), Supple (+3)
+165 Hit Points
+63 Power
+3 Fortitude Defense
+6 Reflex Defense
+3 Afflicted, Bleeding, and Exhausted Recovery

This is a fantastic suggestion, and not something that should be considered "low priority". Something that clearly displays what keywords do and what keywords are active IN-GAME is critical. Even if it wasn't on a tooltip but somewhere on your character stat sheet (where it should also be), that would be a huge step up from what we have now. Until such a system is in place, PFO will continue to frustrate players. I don't want a SIMPLE system with no depth, I just want a system where the information is AVAILABLE (in game).

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

It feels like people want a short explanation that covers everything. If that were possible, the system wouldn't have the depth to keep people engaged for a long time.

No, I want a short explanation for each thing, which is quite different.

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

I logged in quickly this morning as I knew I would have the XP to learn the maneuver I had found. So, I learnt it and now cannot find it anywhere in my feats to slot it. Have I wasted another day's worth of XP?

[Schedim]

Kradlum, du you have a throphy thingie to put it in?

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

I have the introductory rogue kit and a trophy thing slotted.

[Schedim]

Then I don't know, haven't found any such to experiment with ... yet ...

[Nihimon]

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

I logged in quickly this morning as I knew I would have the XP to learn the maneuver I had found. So, I learnt it and now cannot find it anywhere in my feats to slot it. Have I wasted another day's worth of XP?

You will see Expendables for your active Implement listed under Feats -> Active Feats -> Expendables.

If the appropriate Implement is not active, swap Weapon Sets.

[<Flask> Ulf Stonepate]

I had a similar problem with Active Feats last night. I use a Battleaxe and a Heavy Shield. So, slots 1-3 are for axe feats, and slots 4-6 are for shield feats. Easy enough, although not actually indicated anywhere.

I was disappointed to find that I can't slot Carve. the tooltip states it's a 1-handed axe attack, but no matter where I try to slot it, I get a "wrong type" error message. So, I thought, maybe the red background on the icon was intended to tell me something that isn't documented anywhere. I'll buy Hew - another one-handed axe skill that is described pretty clearly as an attack. But it turns out that one also can't be slotted anywhere.

It would be really awesome if I could have the paperdoll on screen while browsing available feats, and have appropriate slots highlight when I select one so I can know before spending the XP that the feat can actually be used.

Also, the tooltips for weapon feats list keywords, which I can match to my equipment, but unlike armor, there is no indication of what is gained by extra matches. The descriptions for level 1 and level two in any given feat are identical - what is gained by upgrading them? Those are pretty expensive, and I've already got probably a week's worth of XP tied up in useless garbage.

[Nihimon]

<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:

I use a Battleaxe and a Heavy Shield.

Hew and Carve are both Secondary Attacks. They can only go in slots 4-6, and then only if you don't have something other than an axe in your off-hand.

There's no way to see this in-game right now, but you can see it in the spreadsheets at Pathfinder Online (Public) (look at Nihimon's Formatted Data -> Attacks and search for Hew). You can also see it in the wiki at Feats - Pathfinder Online Wiki, just search for Hew.

I think it's important to remember that Early Enrollment is not meant to be the Open Release that most games have. It's not necessary for the game to be ready for hundreds of thousands of players who expect everything to be easily understood from in-game information. It's okay, during Early Enrollment, if you have to use some outside resources to figure out how the game works.

<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:

Also, the tooltips for weapon feats list keywords, which I can match to my equipment, but unlike armor, there is no indication of what is gained by extra matches. The descriptions for level 1 and level two in any given feat are identical - what is gained by upgrading them? Those are pretty expensive, and I've already got probably a week's worth of XP tied up in useless garbage.

Attacks match Keywords on Weapons. Each Keyword Match improves Damage and Effects. Higher Level Attacks have more Keywords. Weapons with pluses have more Keywords.

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

Thanks Nihimon. I discovered that after playing around for a while. I assume the bolas maneuvers will be linked to a bow, although not sure how that will work.

Of course, I don't have the rogue kit to actually use the maneuver, so another day's XP wasted for now.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

Thanks Nihimon. I discovered that after playing around for a while. I assume the bolas maneuvers will be linked to a bow, although not sure how that will work.

Of course, I don't have the rogue kit to actually use the maneuver, so another day's XP wasted for now.

Someone will have one you can have. If there are none floating around Stoneroot, I can give you one next time I'm on. Try whispering "Cal" in game. I'll be near OV, unless the teleport issue sends me away.

[<Flask> Ulf Stonepate]

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

Of course, I don't have the rogue kit to actually use the maneuver, so another day's XP wasted for now.

I've got some rogue kits in the bank at Tavernhold. I'll probably be on tonight around 10 central in that area. I'm planning to put all the starter equipment I've scrounged in the AH in Alderweg, but if you're on at that time I can just hand some stuff to you.

[Nihimon]

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

I assume the bolas maneuvers will be linked to a bow...

No. Bolos are Expendables that use a Rogue Kit. They don't tie to a weapon at all.

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

I'm playing on UK time. I'll try to catch up with one of you guys or head up to Alderweg tomorrow.

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

Is it actually worth me levelling my role? As a rogue I generally train HP, reflexes (defense), power (is that just the power bar?) and stealth (does it actually do anything?) I see very little change in my damage doing abilities, the rogues primary role, from training these.

Would I be better off just training base attack, ranged attack and light melee attack (assuming there is one) bonuses until they are maxed out?

[Nihimon]

There are no direct benefits to getting Levels in Rogue. So, if you train Power to get Rogue 5 (I don't know if that's real), the only benefit you get is the benefit you get from training Power. There are no additional benefits to getting Rogue 5.

[Nihimon]

Of course, Rogue 5 might be a prerequisite for something else you want...

[Schedim]

Sneak actually do something, it has been tried and tested. I _think_ it was something like Sneak 1 vs perception 0 halves the perception distance. But there was more complicated than that.

I thinks I can creep up into charge distance now without being seen. but the arming time seems to void that advantage, or I just have a bit to laggy connection to use that tactics.

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

I think coming from P&P Pathfinder is a disadvantage. I have to change my mindset from "levelling gives you more feats" to "more feats (sometimes) give you levels."

[Nihimon]

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

I think coming from P&P Pathfinder is a disadvantage. I have to change my mindset from "levelling gives you more feats" to "more feats (sometimes) give you levels."

That is exactly what Ryan described almost three years ago in Your Pathfinder Online Character.

Quote:

In the tabletop Pathfinder RPG, you earn the benefits of a level all at once as you hit an experience point threshold. In Pathfinder Online, we've turned the system on its head...

That was the first blog post I read (you'll see my first post here the day after that blog was published) and it completely hooked me. Everything that came along afterwards just solidified my enthusiasm for this game.

[Schedim]

It is a interesting system, similar to what I tweaking with, but it _is_ a paradigm shift, and I think we will hear endless lamentations about it in EE and after...

Actually I think Pathfinder is the wrong name for this game (although I understand why it is named so) Golarion Online would be a more truthful name.

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

Yes, I thought a couple of nights ago that Golarion Online was a better name for it. I feel it is missing too much of the Pathfinder feel so far (where are all my nifty rogue feats?), but of course they may be implemented at a later date.

[KarlBob]

Well, Golarion Online has far less name recognition. I also think you're right, Kradlum. As more systems come online, the game will probably feel more "Pathfinder-y".

[<Kabal> Daeglin]

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

Is it actually worth me levelling my role? As a rogue I generally train HP, reflexes (defense), power (is that just the power bar?) and stealth (does it actually do anything?) I see very little change in my damage doing abilities, the rogues primary role, from training these.

Would I be better off just training base attack, ranged attack and light melee attack (assuming there is one) bonuses until they are maxed out?

I think of "levels" as I did the titles that were listed for getting class levels in the 1st Ed AD&D Players Handbook - neat but not serving any mechanical purpose. Train the feats you are interested in using, but recognise that "scattering" too much will lead to future trouble meeting ability score gates.

For example, my role levels are fighter 8/rogue 7. In practice, I am a strong in ranged and moderate in melee with Tier 1 +0 weapons. I maximise my damage by applying and taking advantage of conditions matched between fighter and rogue feature feats, weapons, and attack feats. I have a fighter intro implement with my melee weapon set to apply a debuff (though bugged right now), a rogue intro implement attached to my ranged weapon set with a level 1 rogue ranged manoeuvre damage/slow, and a melee range daze. I have a rogue utility that matches a keyword with my woollen mittens giving me an evasion despite the broken bow attack feat evades. I maximised feats that would provide cross-role advantage (BAB, ranged BAB, etc) at the cost of higher xp then if I focused more. The main advantage is that I can try different combinations for synergy that would not otherwise be available. Prior to the last patch, my con was over 11, and both strength and dex were within achievable range of 11 that little effort would be required to pass the gate when I decide which way to branch.

By doing the above, I have designed a character that allows me a play style i like so far. I do enough damage to a group of mobs at range that once they close, my melee skills are sufficient to finish them off by standing my ground. I can escape if needed. When I'm in a group, I can reslot feats to better fill whichever role is needed more.

Most of my attack feats are trained to lvl 2 or beyond and I don't consider them wasted because at some point the better weapons will come along. They aren't wasted points in that regard. And yes, stealth works well vs mobs, but I haven't done testing vs PCs.

If you haven't read them yet, the Combat Guide and the Crafter Guide are also good intro documents. Links are in the Patcher launch notes if you scroll down. There are a number of resource links on the Kabal forums too. Hit me up in Mumble next time we're both on, i'd be happy to trade rogue tips and tricks :)

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

Nearly 3 weeks in, another newbie question:

When should you buy lvl 2 attack feats? Do they work with +1 weapons, +2 weapons or only with tier 2 weapons?

[Alzaric]

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

Nearly 3 weeks in, another newbie question:

When should you buy lvl 2 attack feats? Do they work with +1 weapons, +2 weapons or only with tier 2 weapons?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, a +0 weapon = a level 1 attack feat, a +1 weapon = a level 2 attack feat, so on and so forth. All you're basically doing here is trying to match the keywords of your weapon with the keywords of your attack.

If you have both an attack feat and a weapon that have the keywords Light and Balanced, for example, then I believe you would need the weapon to be +1 and the attack feat to be level 2 to match or activate both of those keywords. At least, that's how I understand the system to work.

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

That was kind of how I understood it, thanks! Time to spend some XP!

[Urman]

Alzaric wrote:

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

Nearly 3 weeks in, another newbie question:

When should you buy lvl 2 attack feats? Do they work with +1 weapons, +2 weapons or only with tier 2 weapons?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, a +0 weapon = a level 1 attack feat, a +1 weapon = a level 2 attack feat, so on and so forth.

That's correct. We can buy a total of 6 levels of attack feats. They support, in order:

1. +0 weapon (Tier 1)
2. +1 weapon (Tier 1)
3. +2 weapon (Tier 1)
4. Tier 2 weapon (+0 to +2)
5. +3 weapon (Tier 1 or 2)
6. Tier 3 weapon (+0 to +3)

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

so with a +3 shortbow I can go to feat level 5? That would be great!

Ok, next question... Is it worth buying utility: Resilience 2, or would that require +1 footwear with a matching keyword?

[Nihimon]

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

Is it worth buying utility: Resilience 2, or would that require +1 footwear with a matching keyword?

To utilize a Level 2 Utility, you need +1 Gear (Boots or Gloves). I'm not sure it's possible to make +1 Gear yet.

[<Kabal> Kradlum]

I have +1 leather pack. I can make +1 boots and sandals, but the key words don't match the utilities :(

[<Kabal> Daeglin]

I am able to use my Evasion utility without any gear on. When I put on my Woolen Mittens +0, I get one activated Keyword (Fleet I think). From my understanding of utilities, I thought this allowed my utility to work "better" - ie. for Evasion, best case is Evade 20m with all Keywords activated, 0 gets me a portion of that, 1 gets me bit better, etc. Perhaps I am not understanding it correctly.

[Nihimon]

I honestly don't know what the current state is on Utilities. I remember hearing Stephen say something a while back that led me to believe that there was no benefit to training Level 2 Utilities yet. I might have misunderstood at the time, and/or things might have changed since then.

Sorry I can't be more helpful...

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

Nihimon wrote:

...no benefit to training Level 2 Utilities yet.

In response to Proxima's question:

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:

Is there a mechanical benefit from +1 or +2 gloves, boots, hats, belts, etc. over the flat versions?

Stephen Cheney wrote:

For misc gear, not yet. The pluses for those will tie into the variable bonuses on the enchanting system.

[<Kabal> Daeglin]

Thanks for the link. I thought utilities benefited from Keyword/Effect Power mechanic, but that doesn't appear to be the case from that talk. So at this point I'll go back to "I have no idea" :)