hmmm... The dragon is the same as the pit of lava while it is asleep, at least as far as danger goes. Your fine... Just don't fail. Well unless it has a fear aura, in that case danger or not the fear aura would be very distracting.
Requiring someone to roll at a skill most of the time just means the player needs to invest MORE into ensuring the skills success. I mean, that's what I do with my Skill Monkeys.
DC is 25? then the PC needs a +24. At least, maybe +30 just to be on the save side. Disallowing Take 10 just means the PC will be assured of success on fewer things (they become more "Hyper-Specialized"), but they can then do that in ALL circumstances. Even when "distracted" by other things (until the judge starts imposing circumstance penalties. "You're plus what? Ok, you get a -2 circumstance penalty for being smug about it and another -2 for over-confidence.")
If you want a 100% rate then yes, you have to invest that much.
Settle for a less than 100% success rate.
(mind you, i did not follow this advice on flutter. I made sure she could wild empathy critters on a 1)
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hmmm... The dragon is the same as the pit of lava while it is asleep, at least as far as danger goes. Your fine... Just don't fail. Well unless it has a fear aura, in that case danger or not the fear aura would be very distracting.
1) It's more like bubbling lava in a volcano that's shaking : it could blow/wake up at any moment. You can't just sit there all day.
2) I no longer buy SKR's post and the convoluted logic that you are not in immediate danger while jumping over lava. Even the not an FAQ post superseded that.
If the PC wants to do a routine job sneaking past the dragon - why not let him?Thematics wise: because a routine job of sneaking past a dragon is supposed to be an oxymoron. Its not supposed to be a routine job its supposed to be an adventure filled with danger and excitement. If your adventure is "routine" something has gone horribly wrong.
Rules wise: You are standing next to a flippin dragon that could wake up at any moment. You're in immediate danger.
Balance wise: Either I set the DC so low that your take 10 makes the check or i set it so high that you're probably going to fail. Neither of those is a good option. If the dragon's perception is high enough that take 10 won't make it, then rolling probably won't make it either and I do not like setting dc's that high.
Taking 10 in that situation is an ADVANCED rogue talent: something you need to be level 10 and burn a very powerful option to be able to do. It's not something to be handed out lightly.
So if you're worried about a poor stealth roll failing and waking up the dragon you can't take 10, since awaking the dragon is dangerous.
yeah no. If you succeed your check then you're in no danger. The dragon staying asleep is no danger. But you're saying since there's a possibility of a dangerous situation arising (one that is more likely on a low roll at that) that take 10 is disabled.
So if take 10 for stealth is disabled for a dragon when is take 10 on stealth allowed?
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yeah no. If you succeed your check then you're in no danger.
By that argument no roll when you're not just going to die no matter what is ever in danger, because if you make the check you avoid the consequences.
So, yeah. no. You ARE in immediate danger. Break out the dice and pray to the polyhedral gods.
What danger is the sleeping dragon? He stays asleep and nothing happens to me. He can't be the danger stopping me. As he's not dangerous while asleep. It can't be that he may wake up natural regardless of my stealth because you should be able to take 10 trying to stealth against an awake dragon. As he's not actively posing a threat to you since he's unaware of you when you begin stealthing.
Big question for you is, When would take 10 stealth work according to you? When would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?
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What danger is the sleeping dragon? He stays asleep and nothing happens to me. He can't be the danger stopping me. As he's not dangerous while asleep. It can't be that he may wake up natural regardless of my stealth because you should be able to take 10 trying to stealth against an awake dragon.
You cannot use your conclusion as a premise. I like chasing my own tail and that's still circular by comparison.
Big question for you is, When would take 10 stealth work according to you? When would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?
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Big question for you is, When would take 10 stealth work according to you? When would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?
sneak into a bar where the bouncer is just going to throw you out
dine and dash (assuming the habachi chef isn't a halfling thrower that likes to dip his knives in the pufferfish first...)
not be noticed around town when you wouldn't want to be seen.
sneak out of the wait staffs room the morning after
sneak in after a late night out (assuming you haven't had enough alchohol to be a distraction)
sneak past a low level challenge you don't feel like killing.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough it seems. When in an actual campaign doing actual hero/adventure stuff like most sessions are, would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?
Or is your view that if you're doing plot stuff, aka actual hero/adventure stuff, it's going to be non-take 10 able?
And as to your last point, "sneak past a low level challenge you don't feel like killing." who determines if they are low level and how would your character know? Aka I have my master tracker assassin pretend to be a normal looking guard. So a lv20 pretending to be a lv2NPC class.
Because if I can take 10 because I "think" it's a low level because of how it looks then it's not the actual situation but the character's choice on if he feels a take 10 is good enough.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear enough it seems. When in an actual campaign doing actual hero/adventure stuff like most sessions are, would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?
Some of those are from PFS scenarios.
Or is your view that if you're doing plot stuff, aka actual hero/adventure stuff, it's going to be non-take 10 able?
Actual hero stuff with the stealth skill taking 10 is and should be rare. If you're hiding from it you're probably hiding because it's dangerous.
And as to your last point, "sneak past a low level challenge you don't feel like killing." who determines if they are low level and how would your character know? Aka I have my master tracker assassin pretend to be a normal looking guard. So a lv20 pretending to be a lv2NPC class.
Well then i suppose you're rolling and the DM will have to rely on you not metagaming for figuring out why you can't take 10 to get past the peasant.
"but i'm not in immediate danger!"
*Clatter of dice*
"A bright white smile and glowing red eyes appear in the darkness next to you. A moment later Roger's head vanishes in a fountain of gore..."
Because if I can take 10 because I "think" it's a low level because of how it looks then it's not the actual situation but the character's choice on if he feels a take 10 is good enough.
You cannot. The clause is when you ARE in danger, which is something only the DM knows. Not when you feel you are in danger.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear enough it seems. When in an actual campaign doing actual hero/adventure stuff like most sessions are, would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?
You know that is kind of the point of taking 10 right? Don't bother with the mundane, everyday rolls. But, give some suspense and risk to the heroic adventure "gotta make this or else" situations.
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No SKR is correct. Think of immediate danger this way; are you in danger before you make the roll? If yes, then you can't take 10, if no then yes you can. So climbing across a cliff is a YES even though failing is dangerous, but if rocks are sliding or people shooting at you than NO.
So, if an experienced sailor isn't in danger of falling, just not making progress for a round, why are you disallowing the take 10 check in the first place?
Immediate danger of sinking. Distraction of being tossed around like the small kid in the bouncehouse. Presumably if I'm asking for rolls he needs to climb the rigging now and nautical term the thingamajigger all the way up there or the boats going to be in danger of sinking. Otherwise it would just be "You've arrived and the city of Harborsville and finally manage to stop puking..."
I think you've altered the scenario a bit.
It's been a storm on a ship that is in danger of sinking from the getgo. That's kinda what happens to ships in storms but..
Initially there was no imminent danger that the ship was going to sink, just that you had a sailor climbing the rigging in a storm.
even then the storm would probably qualify as a distraction, because you're on a ship and getting tossed around. The thing you're trying to climb bucking around underneath you while lightning cracks by your head is definitely distracting.
It sounds like now you wouldn't require a climb check for that?
If you can't fall and there's no hurry go ahead and take 10. Victory is assured here. There is no drama. Move along.
So you have an issue with the rules then, because sneaking past a dragon is as in immediate danger as it gets.
If you try to sneak past a dragon attacking you, then I agree.
If the dragon is sleeping, it is not immediate. Yes, he might wake up if you fail. But failing prevents Take-20, not Take-10.
The clause is when you ARE in danger, which is something only the DM knows. Not when you feel you are in danger.
That is not the text. Here is the text:
When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted you may choose to take 10
In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10).
What the GM knows does not influence things. What the GM tells you does. You cannot be distracted by the invisible assassin right behind you if you don't know he's there.
The GM controls this part: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted
If the GM states you are not in immediate danger and not distracted, then the Player chooses this part: you may choose to take 10
At no point is the player telling the GM that the PC is not in immediate danger or distracted.
You may fear waking the dragon. That is a consequence of failure. That is not being in immediate danger or being distracted.
/cevah
I'd be interested to see where the in the rules it says "A sleeping dragon poses a danger, but not an immediate one, so you can take 10 on skill checks in that situation".
I'm not even disagreeing with you. I think that's a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules. But to claim that it is the one true RAW and saying other interpretations are incorrect is ignorant.
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Big question for you is, When would take 10 stealth work according to you? When would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?sneak into a bar where the bouncer is just going to throw you out
dine and dash (assuming the habachi chef isn't a halfling thrower that likes to dip his knives in the pufferfish first...)
not be noticed around town when you wouldn't want to be seen.
sneak out of the wait staffs room the morning after
sneak in after a late night out (assuming you haven't had enough alchohol to be a distraction)
sneak past a low level challenge you don't feel like killing.
So, according to you, you can only take 10 when the roll is meaningless.
I don't think it was rules text, but rather a description of CR. My recollection was that it did not matter if it was a real dragon or an illusion. It did not matter if the dragon was awake or not. What did matter was the DC needed to succeed. The DC is set by the CR desired. The higher the DC, the higher the CR of the event.
If the DC is for a CR=APL, then the encounter is a regular encounter. A higher DC is a more difficult encounter, and a lower DC an easier encounter.
/cevah
Having been on ships in storms, I would say that a climb check while climbing the rigging is not a place for take 10.
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So, according to you, you can only take 10 when the roll is meaningless.Big question for you is, When would take 10 stealth work according to you? When would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?sneak into a bar where the bouncer is just going to throw you out
dine and dash (assuming the habachi chef isn't a halfling thrower that likes to dip his knives in the pufferfish first...)
not be noticed around town when you wouldn't want to be seen.
sneak out of the wait staffs room the morning after
sneak in after a late night out (assuming you haven't had enough alchohol to be a distraction)
sneak past a low level challenge you don't feel like killing.
That is its purpose, yes. Barring other abilities, taking 10 is an option to speed up otherwise meaningless or mundane checks in the game. Demanding to use it whenever is contrary to the shared experience of the story, and eliminates possible decision points or story forks.
That is its purpose, yes. Barring other abilities, taking 10 is an option to speed up otherwise meaningless or mundane checks in the game. Demanding to use it whenever is contrary to the shared experience of the story, and eliminates possible decision points or story forks.So, according to you, you can only take 10 when the roll is meaningless.Big question for you is, When would take 10 stealth work according to you? When would you be able to and want to take 10 on stealth?sneak into a bar where the bouncer is just going to throw you out
dine and dash (assuming the habachi chef isn't a halfling thrower that likes to dip his knives in the pufferfish first...)
not be noticed around town when you wouldn't want to be seen.
sneak out of the wait staffs room the morning after
sneak in after a late night out (assuming you haven't had enough alchohol to be a distraction)
sneak past a low level challenge you don't feel like killing.
Can you quote in the rules where it says only meaningless checks?
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Unless storms are dramatically different in Pathfinder, was it historically common on sailing ships that riggers fell about once every two minutes during stormy ocean travel here on earth?
Captain Bligh: "Mister Fletcher, go help with the rigging."
A few rounds pass:SPLAT!
End of the Mutiny on the Bounty.
A fine Monty Python sketch, not a block buster with Marlon Brando.
It was something I wanted to say for at least a couple of days.
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My issue is not with the GMs who actually use judgement to decide when you can and cannot take 10. My issue is with the people who say "It is a long way down, so no take 10 for you." Or "No take 10 for sneaking past the dragon because dragons are dangerous." In other words people who use GM's discretion to effectively ban take 10 because
comedydrama.So you have an issue with the rules then, because sneaking past a dragon is as in immediate danger as it gets.
And with the design team, because thats the exact sort of thing they called out as grounds for the DM to require rolling.
And people that listen to one or the other.
I don't think arbitrary means what you think it does.
I strongly disagree with your dragon example. For me it is exactly the example of a situation where you can take 10, and, for me, the developers post I have read support my position.
You are in immediate danger? No, the dragon isn't attacking, nor searching for someone.
Failure is dangerous, so you can't take 20, but you can easily take 10.
BTW, dragons have blindsense,60'; so the whole argument is moot if you are at less than 61'.
Can you quote in the rules where it says only meaningless checks?
"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger" which you are equating to useless.
Whilst I agree Diego Rossi with being able to take ten for the Dragon, it isn't threatening you or in combat with you or specifically distracting you. Taking 20 isn't available because you can't try and sneak past something 20 times until you get it right rather than because it's dangerous to fail.
Can you quote in the rules where it says only meaningless checks?"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger" which you are equating to useless.
Ok... BNW you have to admit that you are far more restrictive on take 10 than any other GM I have met including the developers. The only group more restrictive than you just ban it altogether. Just look at your list of when you allow it and times like jumping over a lava pit where you don't and this should be clear.
In the interest of moving the debate past BNW's personal interpretations let's all agree to disagree ok?
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I go by the idea that using a skill is never a distraction from using that same skill. Any dangers inherent to using a skill are also not going to prevent taking 10 with that skill. "Falling" is not a danger to prevent taking 10 when climbing or jumping. "Being caught" is not a danger to prevent taking 10 when sneaking or pickpocketing.
Now, if the character is trying to sneak and climb at the same time, "being caught" could possibly prevent taking 10 on the Climb check, and "falling" could prevent taking 10 on Stealth. But risks inherent to the skill itself should not prevent taking 10, otherwise you basically prevent taking 10 in nearly all situations where it matters. IMO obviously.
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The "codified rules" should be on the conservative side. It is better that the assumption be "No, you can't" and GMs can be more permissive at will, than the opposite. Assuming "Sure, whenever" makes the GM a jerk when they want players to roll for narrative reasons.Nonsense. The codified rules should be on the side of verisimilitude, which means that people with skill ranks almost always succeed at routine activities.
That's... what I said?
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Whilst I agree Diego Rossi with being able to take ten for the Dragon, it isn't threatening you or in combat with you or specifically distracting you. Taking 20 isn't available because you can't try and sneak past something 20 times until you get it right rather than because it's dangerous to fail.
Taking 20 with as stealth check can be as easily "I try put my foot in that corner ..no, no, that move some stone and make noise, maybe the other corner ..." as "I pass near the dragon 20 times, until I get it perfectly." You are still trying every step 20 times and getting a result of 1.
It is not a automatic failure, but if you can beat the dragon perception with a 1 you don't have problems with your stealth checks. :-)The limit is that failing has consequences, not that you can't try it more than once.
If you are filming something you can take 20 in a stealth roll, as the result hasn't any consequence beside a bit of wasted recording.
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Is the dragon awake or asleep? An awake dragon is definitely an immediate threat... But a sleeping one is not.
Tell that to bilbo.
He's not batman. He doesn't take 30 minutes to get dressed and become dangerous. He wakes up, you fry. That's immediate.
From a rules sense perspective, you can't take 10 when your adrenaline is pumping and your heart is racing, which is the sensation you should be getting trying to sneak past a dragon. (of course if you're a 20th level adventurer and the dragons still got a bit of egg behind the ears that wouldn't apply)
So most base jumpers, free climber and so on can't take 10, as their goal is to get their adrenaline to pump and their heart racing.
Same for most athlete.
In the interest of moving the debate past BNW's personal interpretations let's all agree to disagree ok?
When you can explain how that one sentence is supposed to parse into SKR's post on it's own I'm listening.
You can't. It doesn't.
The idea that you're not in immediate danger while leaping over lava is nuts. you are leaping over lava
It does not mirror reality: you put a foot wide balance beam over 1 foot on a soft padded surface in gym class people walk right over it. You put that over a chasm people look down freak and fall off.
In that sense, the entire game is a GM option. That's also ridiculous.No.
This is objectively not the same thing. Pretending that it is is conceding any pretense of a rational argument.
It's a player option when not in immediate danger or distracted. You probably like them vaguely defined so you can disallow them as often as possible.It's a perk.
That's fine for you I guess, but there seem to be plenty of people here who would like the terms defined clearly.Since we're casting aspersions on motives here, it's the ones that want to always take 10.
It's not about tying anyone's hands, it's about consistency. Consistency is fair.No. Its not.
"Fair" is getting the answer you want. If that answer was never that would be unfair, but consistent.
Also, our quotes seem to conflict. I'm going to have to go with the one in the rule bookI've quoted the rules directly and the player design team's not an faq. If there's a conflict between that and the notes you're wrong, sorry.
Yes, it is the same thing. You pretending it's not is conceding any pretense of a rational argument
That doesn't make it any less of an option
Since it is an option, this one doesn't matter
Fair is in accordance with the rules or standards, so defining them clearly seems pretty obvious. It has nothing to do with the answer anyone wants. It has to do applying the answer equally, avoiding favoritism and bias
You quoted the rules directly? Where? I saw the not a FAQ, and your gross misinterpretation of taking 10 not being a player option, that's all. Since it is a player option, you were wrong. Since the not a FAQ does [/b]not[/b] override a rule, you're wrong again. So tell me, where was I wrong?
Never mind dude, I'm tired of arguing with you. Take the last word 100 times if you want. You're still wrong and I'm still done here
You quoted the rules directly? Where?
"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger"
"in immediate danger or distracted"You can't answer that.
I saw the not a FAQ, and your gross misinterpretation of taking 10 not being a player option
This is sheer equivocation.
The player having an option to take 10 or roll IS a player option
Deciding when they're in immediate danger or distracted is clearly the DM's call.
Equating the two, calling it a misinterpretation is not an argument for your position. You're just insulting my position. It's rhetorical posturing AND goes directly against the devs telling you how it works.
that's all. Since it is a player option, you were wrong. Since the not a FAQ does [/b]not[/b] override a rule, you're wrong again. So tell me, where was I wrong?
You don't make an argument that it's a player option, you use that to tell me I'm wrong , and since I'm wrong the developer team is wrong , so I'm wrong.
You're wrong everywhere. Your argument starts with incorrect premises and uses those to sustain itself as an argument. Its the logical fallacy equivalent of a turducken mobius strip
Would a sane person be wetting their pants right now?
While jumping over lava? Yes.
you're in immediate danger.
The absolutely nonsensical arguments required to disregard the FAQ has pushed this from a rules disagreement to rules lawyering chicanery and should be treated as such.
If you never want to fail a check make the investment in getting the skill that high.
I would hate to be a player in your game.
"You see an orc, roll a will save or wet your pants."
Because that's what a 'sane normal person' would do.
Except that's not what happens. It just means that if there is an orc standing there and you're a first level adventurer you might hit your thumb trying to shoe a horse because you're busy keeping an eye on the thing that very well might decide to try to split you in half with his axe.
Baseless exaggerations do not help your argument.
I would hate to be a player in your game.
"You see an orc, roll a will save or wet your pants."
Because that's what a 'sane normal person' would do.
Except that's not what happens. It just means that if there is an orc standing there and you're a first level adventurer you might hit your thumb trying to shoe a horse because you're busy keeping an eye on the thing that very well might decide to try to split you in half with his axe.
Baseless exaggerations do not help your argument.
But do you hit your thumb trying to shoe a horse if the orc is 1 minute and 50 seconds away and you don't know the orc is there?
If possible, consider the above scenario in the cases where hitting your thumb is a)dramatic, and b)not dramatic, and contrast the differences between those two.
@BNW: You seem to assume there's always some actual danger even when there's none. _Ozy_ mentioned seeing an orc, not that the orc was attacking them, hostile, or even threatening them passively or otherwise. Similarly, in taking 10 to sneak past a sleeping dragon you seem to assume they're going to wake up and instantly immolate you. That's not how the game works thanks to rounds.
From one round to the next the concept of immediate danger can change drastically. It seems from your responses, you always assume that danger in any reference frame with respect to the situations is always at its max and of expedient import to the point the character can't think straight. That you don't allow for the graduation of levels of danger isn't helping your argument. You're just all "dragon, boom - immediate danger," "orc, boom - immediate danger." You're painting with too broad a brush, and then, you say other people are making baseless exaggerations.
You quoted the rules directly? Where?"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger"
"in immediate danger or distracted"You can't answer that.
No one is saying to override the GM. So why are you assuming everyone is?
If the GM tells you that you are in immediate danger or distracted, then you do not have the option.
But when the GM DOES NOT TELL YOU, then you DO HAVE THE OPTION.
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Would a sane person be wetting their pants right now?While jumping over lava? Yes.
you're in immediate danger.
Why? Is the lava splashing up to where you are? Is it so hot that you are currently burning? What makes it immediate? If it is not damaging you, it is not immediate.
The absolutely nonsensical arguments required to disregard the FAQ has pushed this from a rules disagreement to rules lawyering chicanery and should be treated as such.
What FAQ?
You keep saying there is a FAQ. Point to it. Give us a link.The NON-FAQ is specifically NOT A FAQ, and has ZERO effect on the game rules wise.
/cevah
So you are saying you have the option except when you do not, which is when the GM says that you are in conditions that prevent the use of a take ten?
yes. The alternative would be that you MUST take 10 when you're not in immediate danger. I can choose to roll if i want and hope for a higher result. (in this case, i want to make the best horseshoe ever, with spinners)
Having been on ships in storms, I would say that a climb check while climbing the rigging is not a place for take 10.
Have you been on a ship in a gun fight? Can you compare and contrast the danger and difficulty?