An upcoming campaign I'm going to be playing in is going to end with a duel between me and another pc barbarian. What would you recommend for me to play to ensure victory.
A few things clear, I need to beat him with honor, I can't use archetypes from quests (I wanted to use sword-saint but was told I couldn't) and I would prefer if the character is martial.
EDIT: The level will be high but I'm not sure if it will be 20 yet
2ND EDIT: Can't be human for campaign reasons
Disarm swashbuckler?
Disarm swashbuckler?
I don't know much about the swashbuckler class I'll look into it.
If you could go into a bit more detail it would be appreciated.
Strix Ranger. Most Barbarians don't specialize in ranged combat. Fly 60' up, and Full-attack until Barbarian doesn't move.
Strix Ranger. Most Barbarians don't specialize in ranged combat. Fly 60' up, and Full-attack until Barbarian doesn't move.
This is a good idea but I don't know if the group watching us fight would consider it honorful :/
A decently built Swashbuckler will work. By spamming Targeted Strike (Torso) paired with Opportune Parry & Riposte, as long as you can ensure hits you can totally lock down his attack sequence (he's staggered so he only gets one attack, you parry it and counterattack). Costs 2 panache a round for only two attacks though, so you need to set up with plenty of extra panache and crit a lot, or go for tactics with a little less gouda. Dodging Panache is actually solid against full martials and is pretty cheap to spam. End your turn 10' from the Barbarian (via Lunge, most easily), he 5' steps in to full attack, you Dodging Panache to step back. +Cha as AC against the first hit and he's out of range for the rest. Targeted Strike can be used to disarm without dealing with the CMD of somebody who's virtually guaranteed to outstat you.
Daring Champion also works, to combine some of the best Swashbuckler tricks with Challenge to give you +level*2 on all of your attacks. I like Ronin as an Order, to pass you a get-out-of-jail free card once per combat and a floating nat 20 to drop when you need it.
I kind of like the symbolism of going Bloodrager vs. Barbarian, but given the Barbarian's penchant for smashing spells out of existence that might be a bad idea.
Magus' most basic tactics slaughter things in 1v1 scenarios. Go nova and watch him burn. Not exactly martial though.
Synthesist would work, but that's really cheesy.
I actually like this idea so unless I get a better one I'l be going with it :)
Let's play barbarian's advocate for a bit. These results will vary, but all of these are options you'll potentially have to face.
Unbreakable Fighter/Invulnerable Rager with Crane Style and the Stalwart chain who fights defensively to get DR 19/- (possibly 25/- if dragon totem ups dr).
Come and Get Me Barbarian with a reach weapon and armor spikes, some way to enlarge, and Dazing Assault. Save or be dazed on every attack you make against him, before your attack resolves. Oh, and Unexpected Strike so he gets to make AoO for you moving into threatened squares as well.
Strength Surge Smasher Sunder build who shatters everything you're wearing, holding, or have ever known or loved.
Move action Intimidating Glare standard action Terrifying Howl that forces you to drop everything and run away from him.
Oh, apparently they can also super dirty trick you (Savage Dirty Trick) to daze/nauseate/stagger. And a disarm that hurls your own weapon at you (Impelling Disarm).
That's just the simple stuff, you can probably build one that does more than half of those at the same time.
By the time you hit high enough level you have to assume a barbarian is rage cycling (17th with no interference, as early as 9 with a dip, 10% of WBL at 13th). This means every round they'll be adding +level to a combat maneuver check of their choice, many of which can bone you if built properly. Also many of which they can make with no AoO and an added rider effect from a rage power. If they go the pounce route (and it's really quite good) then staggered only restricts them from full attacking a single move away, not a double move. So in part it depends on how this particular barbarian is built, but all of the previous options are on the table. All of them are also fairly small investments, so a build you think you know could throw some of them on near the end.
The suggested swashbuckler faces a number of problems, not least of which is that Targeted Strike is a full round action. This means combat either began with...
I don't believe he's min-maxing so a good bit of this won't be a problem. He probably will have a way to enlarge and I don't know what archetype he is using I will try to find out.
OK guys I will be using the Daring Champion idea, any advice?
Also a few questions:
Would wearing heavy armor cause any issues besides the obvious? the archetype won't allow this
Whats the best order for this?
What weapon should I use?
Also build ideas would be nice.
Why is the honor thing so important?
Better a live rat than a dead lion.
Precise Strike isn't going to directly compete with Barbarian damage in a knock-down drag-out fight. Mostly it makes up for a lack of two-handing and Power Attack. With Challenge added onto that... maybe. Depends on how aggressive the build is.
Fortunately, the Swashbuckler/Daring Champion was designed to explicitly avoid those slug-fests. For example, Strength Surge as a way to avoid maneuvers was mentioned... but the Swashbuckler can trip you via Targeted Strike without ever looking at your CMD.
For an Order, you want something that adds a bonus to your attack rolls, or an order with really nice abilities. I'm a fan of Ronin for the latter but its challenge bonuses are utterly useless in this scenario.
Weapon: Rapier, Scimitar, or Cutlass are the Swashbuckler go-tos.
The biggest threat I'm seeing is the Fortification armor. If he goes for that you might be wise to find a way to get rid of that before the big fight.
... Or does convincing the friendly neighborhood rogue to steal things for his own gain no longer count as honorable? :D
Thanks for all the good information as for the rogue part also in reply to Zhayne, were going to be fighting in front of a large group of people for a title. Honor on the battlefield will be required....unless its not obvious, anything the crowd won't see is fair game.
I saw this build on another thread and was wondering if it could be rebuilt to work for me, it also fulfills my desire to be a samurai
Unnamed Bad Ass Hero
Half-Elf Daring Champion 6
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 17, flat-footed 13 ( +2 Armor, +5 Dex, +1 Dodge, +1 Deflection)
hp 55 (6d10+18)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +6
+2 to Saves vs Death effects, Fear effects and Mind affecting
Defensive Abilities
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Glorious Tian Xia Steel Folded One Thousand Times +13/+8 (1d8+6 18-20x2) or +11/+6 (1d8+10 18-20x2)
Challenge, Precise Strike + 1 Panache Spent, Power Attack +11/+6 (1d8+28 18-20x2)
Ranged What are you, a COWARD?!
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 13
Base Atk +6/+1; CMB +6; CMD 22
Feats Weapon Focus(Katana), EWP(Katana), Slashing Grace(Katana), Power Attack
Traits Reincarnated, Deathtouched
Skills Perception +6, Intimidate +8, Climb +8, Diplomacy +6
Languages Common
Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dex +2, Leather Armor, Cloak of Resistance +2/Banner, Ring of Protection +1, Ring of Sustenance, Wand of Cure Light Wounds because you're a squishy mofo, 500 gold remaining
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Champion’s Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat requirements.
Challenge (Ex): Three times per day, a cavalier can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier's melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier's level. A cavalier of the order of the flame becomes ever more emboldened with each glorious victory. As an immediate action after reducing the target of his challenge to 0 hit points or fewer, the cavalier can elect to issue a glorious challenge to an opponent within 15 feet.
Glorious Challenge (Ex): A glorious challenge does not count against the cavalier's number of challenges per day, but otherwise acts like a cavalier's challenge class feature. When he issues a glorious challenge, the cavalier takes a –2 penalty to AC for the duration of the glorious challenge (this penalty stacks with the usual –2 AC penalty against opponents other than the target of the cavalier's challenge). The cavalier gains a morale bonus on melee damage rolls against the target of his glorious challenge equal to 2 × the number of consecutive glorious challenges he has issued thus far. As long as he continues to defeat targets of his glorious challenges and there are more opponents in range, the cavalier can continue to issue glorious challenges indefinitely, with the penalty to AC and the bonus on damage rolls increasing with each subsequent foe. For example, a 5th-level cavalier that has just issued his third glorious challenge after defeating the original target of his challenge takes a –6 penalty to AC (–8 against creatures other than the target of his glorious challenge) and gains a +11 bonus on melee damage rolls (a +5 bonus from his base challenge ability plus a +6 morale bonus for three consecutive glorious challenges).
Order of the Flame(Ex)
Tactician (Ex): At 1st level, a cavalier receives a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.
Foolhardy Rush(Ex): At 2nd level, the cavalier can charge across the battlefield at a moment's notice. Whenever the cavalier attempts an initiative check, as long as he rolls an 11 or higher on the die, he can move up to his base speed as an immediate action and he is not considered flat-footed. If the cavalier takes an action to move during his next turn, he subtracts the number of feet moved during the initiative check from his total movement.
Nimble (Ex): At 3rd level, a daring champion gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load. Anything that causes the daring champion to lose his Dexterity bonus to AC also causes him to lose this dodge bonus.
Panache and Deeds (Ex): At 4th level, a daring champion gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature, along with the following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative.
Ah, good. That helps quite a bit.
So for the Daring Champion build, it uses Order of the Flame which is a poor choice in a duel. It's a good choice in general because you get to keep bouncing around enemies challenging them for even more damage (and less AC) but not using up daily uses of challenge.
If you're going with that build you need a new order, the two that stood out to me were Order of the Cockatrice (bonus damage if you're the only person threatening someone, level 15 ability gives you 1/day +Cha to everything for 1 round) and Order of the Sword (level 15 ability modifies challenge to add Cha to attack and damage 1/day). I don't do much cavaliers though, I'm sure someone knows the orders better than I do.
Order of the Sword looks like a waste of a 8th level ability, Cockatrice looks good but what do you think about Order of the Star. Also if I do go with Order of the Star it might be interesting to take two levels of paladin or one of cleric.
EDIT: After looking into it I could also take Ronin or "Knight Errant" as its called for Cavaliers
Sword is meant for mounted, the only good part was the level 15 ability. Star looks pretty good, I missed the part in Retribution where it also works if they attack you.
As for dipping, I'm not sure what you're hoping to get out of Paladin. Lay on Hands is going to compete with all the swashbuckler things for swift/immediate actions (and not be very useful), Divine Grace is pretty much the only benefit. And going that route will lock you out of most of the more "creative" solutions against the Barbarian.
And, again, can't emphasize this enough, if you go swashbuckler/daring champion and get in a full-attack trading match with a well-built barbarian you will lose. They have more health, probably have more damage, and always on damage reduction at a minimum. Buff spells can't help you. Defensive gear can't help you. Even flying can't help anymore. Well, it can, you just need a lot more room. Difficult terrain can't stop the pounce. Not that it could before. And with some terrible prereqs, illusions, invisibility, and darkness can't stop them anymore.. All of the rage powers that let them do a combat maneuver 1/rage also do it "in place of a...
Wow, I didn't realized barbarians were buffed so much. I'm leaning towards Star for the order and after rethinking a paladin dip probably not a good idea so that's out but what would I lose for a 1 level cleric dip? 1 bab and a nice ability (At 20th level, when a daring champion threatens a critical hit with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, that critical is automatically confirmed. Furthermore, the critical modifier of those weapons increases by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example).) for 6d6 channel energy at level 20 and domains. Also what feats would you progress the previously mentioned built with beyond lvl 6
Could just be a paladin and heal all the damage he deals out as a swift action. Even a barb would not find it easy to deal out significantly more damage than a swift action 10D6 heal would do with you properly armored; in the absence of a crit anyway.
Paladin is perfectly legit for party play as well. If you want to have a lot of fun be a dhampir antipaladin and watch the barb curl into a ball with your touch attacks :)
To be honest I don't feel like playing a paladin as I'v played the divine in the last two quests and am bored of it. Also my gm specifically banned us starting as anti-paladins. And lastly I have this idea of a honor driven samurai type warrior I want to play for this quest. So no offence to you but I think I'l pass on this one :)
Bump. What feats would you guys use to progress the above build?
|
Barbarian can do more than that 10d6 (average 35) heal easily. You're not going to outheal a Barbarian in melee range. You need to cut down on their ability to make full attacks (staggered, prone, etc.) or bring massive DR to the party. Barring another Barbarian that pretty much means going with Option A.
To get 10d6 lay on hands you need to be 20th level (unless you get certain items) so it's automatically 60 hit points, and with the right build you can make that 80-100 (depending on how one rules fey foundling). You won't be out healing the Barbarian's damage but you'll still be getting a lot of your health back each round.
If you want to make full use of your swashbuckling abilities you'll need Combat Reflexes and Quick Draw. Both are fairly useful anyway, especially if you get a dueling weapon. That's about all I would say is necessary, the rest is basically up to you.
Also, that build is completely lacking the Teamwork feats, so you'll need to pick some of those. I could not tell you what would be good there, just looking at the list real quick there's Escape Route, Lookout, and Paired Opportunists. The last one gives you +4 on parrying. You also still have the banner, I think there's some feats that improve that.
So at this point it really depends on what you want to do. If you already have Quick Draw you can go Rapid Shot/Deadly Aim and be a dagger thrower, if you want to intimidate there's Cornugon Smash. You could take Skill Focus (acrobatics) to be a super tumbler, there's also Spring Attack. I don't really recommend it, and if at all possible try to replace it with Fly-by Attack, but it's about the only option for move/attack/move humanoids can get. X Assault feats and X Critical feats can let you apply effects for either a -5 to attack or only on a crit, but you're going to have a 15-20 crit range anyway.
If you know what level we're talking about and what specifically you want to do I can probably give you more advice. If you're stuck for feats there's always the save boosters, improved initiative, weapon focus, etc. They're not flashy and generally don't give you more options (which is what feats should be doing) but it's not like +2 Will save ever hurt anyone (except for the hilarious reverse trap, but that's a different story).
And as for the Paladin discussion, we don't need to actually nail down the numbers. The point is that a paladin can heal themselves and get a larger effective health pool, possibly more than even the barbarian has. That makes him "similar", whether or not it's better is irrelevant. What's relevant is it makes both of them "better" than the swashbuckler at standing still and...
Combat reflexes and quick draw are a must. I can't seem to find any banner feats. Cornugon Smash is nice and I really want to get a critical feat but don't want critical focus, any way around this?
I also saw the feat Dueling Cape and I was wondering if I could use my banner for it.
On the topic of teamwork feats could Broken Wing Gambit, the swashbuckler abilities Opportune Parry and Riposte, Dodging Panache and the feats Sidestep and Improved Sidestep be mixed for interesting results?
Does it absolutely have to be martial class or would some limited casting be acceptable?
I'm no theorycrafter/optimisation expert but I was thinking the best way to combat the Barbarian would be to prevent him using his rage. Hit him with the right spells and assuming he makes his save you could still leave him fatigued meaning he couldn't run, charge or rage?
A high level Bloodrager wouldn't be too far behind the Barbarian in terms of hit points, he'd have the full BAB, some the same Rage powers plus Bloodline powers. He'd also have access to spells like the Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Sickening amongst others.
Obviously if the honour constraints mean no spellcasters then it's a rubbish suggestion, but just wondered.
It would work but now I'm kinda hyped up about playing a Daring Champion :P
Fatigue doesn't stop a barbarian. Again, at high levels you have to assume a barbarian is rage cycling, which happens by making themself immune to fatigue. There's also a rage power to rage while fatigued and a magic item that replaces fatigue with sickened.
For banner feats I was actually thinking of Flagbearer which doesn't help you (have to hold your flag in one hand). Don't know any way around critical focus (and yes, it sucks) you can use the Assault feats instead of the Critical feats if you really don't want to take it.
Any question that involves "can I use X instead of a banner" is GM territory and needs to be asked to them. It seems reasonable, though be prepared for it to have a much shorter range when it's wrapped around your arm (much harder to see). You can just use your banner as a cape for Dueling Cape (similar in shape and weight to a cape) but have a lot of spares because if you ever entangle someone they'll probably shred it.
Broken Wing Gambit doesn't work for you, just your allies. Sidestep is good for getting into flanking and that's it. It uses your immediate action so no riposte on a parry and no swift actions the next turn, and Improved Sidestep is pretty much worthless. 5 feet less movement is "so what?", no 5-foot step is the only real penalty of sidestep. Dodging Panache is just better Sidestep. Same immediate action, takes panache, but lets you 5-foot step out of their range. Additionally, doesn't require them to miss first, just attack you period.
If you're mixing things, get Broken Wing Gambit and Seize the Moment. Works better the more melee crit fishers you have, but everyone Broken Wing Gambits, whoever the enemy attacks everyone else gets an AoO, anyone who crits lets everyone else get an AoO. Team of four rogues built with this got something like 40 attacks a round (75% chance one of the three crits, triggers new round of AoO).
Thanks for all the info you answered a lot of my questions. I think Flagbearer is in a quest/campaign setting book so I don't know if it would be allowed but I could probably get around it by talking to my gm. I just realized something I could do with that feat to make it work well...I could use a Banner of the Ancient Kings in my offhand as a shield and claim its my banner because in the description it says "the banner shifts in appearance to match the heraldry or coat of arms of the person who attached it". While on the other hand it says "As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands" we can get around this by using the fact that its a free action to let go and re-grab a weapon with two hands. Seeing as its a buckler it work work and we could get all the bonuses and a shield while only using one hand (not using it to entangle).
Something to add to the rogue build why not use stunning critical/ stunning assault and Dastardly Finish to completely lock down an enemy. After the first crit/stun everyone attacks, then next turn you coup de grace the enemy which either instantly kills them or ensures a crit (also adding sneak attack damage) which continues the cycle also can you get ability focus for the stunning critical?
You cannot coup de grace a stunned opponent, they are not considered helpless.
You cannot coup de grace a stunned opponent, they are not considered helpless.