Cleric level 2, looking for strategy and build advice


Advice


First some background. My cleric is elven with 14 strength, 15 dexterity, 13 constitution, 13 intelligence, 16 wisdom, and 17 charisma...don't judge I don't know what I was thinking when I was making her. Anyways she has Selective Channeling for her feat and has 18 AC normally with scale mail and a buckler which I use because of my bow. She also worships Gozreh and has the growth and water domains.

Now here's the tricky bit, I'm in a party of 7 including myself but 4 of them do not have the ability to fight with melee (at least on paper) which means my cleric is going to have to be a battle cleric. The other frontliners are a fighter with 20 strength, 12 dex, and favors two handed weapons and a magus who's AC is not going to get any better than 16 until level 4 or level 7 since we already gave her Dodge. The party members that can't fight are a sorcerer with Color Spray and Charm Person, a witch that has the healing hex that's part merchant, and two halfling bards, one of which is a GMPC and the other a GM mentor PC and both can heal.

So in our first battle after reaching level 2 we fought a bunch of gnolls. Doesn't seem too bad right? Well they got a surprise round and higher initiative on us so they were in my face so I couldn't exactly cast a spell. I used the enlarge power (Spend a swift action to have Enlarge Person on yourself for the round and you can use it 3+wis mod times for day) and attacked but here's where the trouble came up. Not only did I get knocked out twice by the same gnoll twice, but half of his attacks were an exact match to my reduced AC. Thankfully 3/4 of the party members that can't fight can heal so I was fine but this made me doubt the enlarge power.

My current advancement plan is as follows.

Level 3: Improved Initiative
Level 4: +1 Dex
Level 5: Toughness
Not sure after that. I'm also planning on getting the witch to either make her a belt of strength or a headband of wisdom when I can afford one since she's getting Craft Wondrous item at level 3. I was also thinking of retraining Selective Channeling into Power Attack, but two of my friends that played this game longer than me said it's a bad idea unless I ditch the buckler and start two-handing my weapons, and even then they still don't advice it because my accuracy's a little low.

So here's my questions.
1, How should I use my enlarge power in battle?
2, Is my feat plan a good idea since I draw a lot of attacks by being big?
3, Would a belt of strength or a headband of wisdom be better for me?
4, Should I be using my buffing spells even when the enemy is in my face?
5, I haven't used my bow all game and it's the reason I use a buckler over a heavy shield, should I use a heavy shield instead?
6, The thought of multiclassing into fighter has crossed my mind a few times for extra feats. Should I dip into fighter or should I stick with cleric levels and focus on the feats?

Feel free to ask if you need more information.

Silver Crusade

HyperMissingno wrote:


So here's my questions.
1, How should I use my enlarge power in battle?

Swift action Enlarge Person is the most powerful melee option available to a cleric. Enlarge before things get close so you get free Attacks of Opportunity. Wield a longspear & enlarge, to dominate the battlefield. This is a very powerful combat style, but requires some practice to get right. You have already built a cleric perfect for this approach, you just didn't know about the approach.

Your biggest obstacle to dominating the battlefield this way will be your own over-eager allies. Your allies will need to learn patience and basic tactics. For example, if your allies learn to wait for the foe to come to them, rather than automatically rushing the foe, it may nearly double your group's combat power.

HyperMissingno wrote:
2, Is my feat plan a good idea since I draw a lot of attacks by being big?

Improved initiative is good, but your build begs for the feats Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. Those feats, combined with swift-action Enlarge Person, are the shortcut to martial godhood. Get those feats, instead.

When enlarged & wielding a longspear you threaten in a huge 50' diameter! Anything that moves in that circle gives you a free AoO. Combat reflexes will give you enlarged 2 AoOs, or 3 enlarged AoOs if you can boost your DEX to 16. Your huge threatened zone means you'll often actually get those AoOs, unlike most polearm fighters.

You will continue to draw attacks when big, but you should never have the eat a full attack. You should always be able to get away from a foe, full attack, set up to get AoOs, and deny the foe a full attack. This because of the free virtual 5' step that comes from your domain power. That's the best aspect of combining swift action Enlarge Person with a longspear. Play out a few sample combats on a grid map and you will see why this works so well. You will find this combat approach is especially effective against foes with multiple natural attacks. E.g. ghouls, trolls, anything that has a powerful full attack. This is because you should never have to take a full attack, and should always be a able to limit such foes to a Standard Action attack!

Too bad you are already stuck with Selective Channel. On the bright side, your high CHA makes it a decent feat. You will do so much damage in melee that occasionally healing a foe is no big deal: basically a rounding error.

"OK, for my move action I quick channel positive energy to heal. Because I lack Selective Channel I also healed this wounded foe for 10 HP. For my Standard Action I cast a spell. When that wounded foe moves I hit it with my AoO for 23 damage."

HyperMissingno wrote:
3, Would a belt of strength or a headband of wisdom be better for me?

Definitely Strength! You already have enough wisdom to cast 6th level spells, which will carry you through 12th level. You don't need to worry about increasing your WIS until 13th level. A battle cleric needs STR, not more WIS. Your base STR14, +2 from being enlarged, +2 from enhancements gets your STR18. The sweet spots are STR14, STR18, and STR22.

Your ordinary longspear attacks, once you have STR18 and Power Attack, will hit for 2D6+9. You can easily buff that much higher. By 5th level you should be attacking at about +10 to hit for at least 2D6+15 damage. Comparable to a raging barbarian.

HyperMissingno wrote:
4, Should I be using my buffing spells even when the enemy is in my face?
No way!
Whisperknives wrote:
Whisper's Rule of Buffing: If combat has already started no buff is worth giving up a full round of attacks for.

Cast whatever buffs you can before combat starts, then start whumping things. It's the job of the party scout to warn you of nearby enemies before combat starts, so you can buff before the fight. That's the primary benefit of a scout! If the enemy isn't already on you in Round One you have several good options:

#1 Enlarge, move 20' away from the foe and cast a spell. You threaten the foe 20' away, so you will automatically get an AoO if the foe moves, even if it decides to flee from your martial might.

#2 Enlarge, move to a tactically sound position, and then Ready an action to attack the first foe to come within range. If a foe tries to move in you will get two attacks: the readied action and the AoO.

HyperMissingno wrote:
5, I haven't used my bow all game and it's the reason I use a buckler over a heavy shield, should I use a heavy shield instead?

Ditch the bow and drop both shields. Instead, wield a longspear. You will be vastly more combat effective. Even more so once you boost your STR higher and get the Power Attack feat. Remember, the longspear is a two handed weapon, so you get the two handed bonuses from both STR and Power Attack. A cleric can easily wind up with huge combat bonuses this way.

Note that the threatened area from your longspear should provide you a lot of defensive ability. This protects you, and also protects your allies. It's not AC, instead foes don't want to approach you because they fear your AoOs. This defensive benefit gets much better once you have Combat Reflexes.

If you need to attack something at a distance you have some great options:

#1 Hit it with your longspear. You have 20' reach!

#2 Cast a Summon Monster spell. That should be your go-to way to damage things at a distance, not a puny missile weapon.

#3 You're a cleric, so buff your allies!

HyperMissingno wrote:
6, The thought of multiclassing into fighter has crossed my mind a few times for extra feats. Should I dip into fighter or should I stick with cleric levels and focus on the feats?

Nope. Not worth it. Stay cleric, but hone your fighting style to one more suited for a Cleric. Despite your awesome martial power you remain a full caster.

At low levels this will pay off, and at high levels this will pay off even better. Remember that your ability to scoop up AoOs at reach requires only your swift action, and takes place during enemy movement. This means you can enlarge & take AoOs to your heart's content, while still always using your standard action to cast a spell. The free virtual 5' step you get from your domain power means you should always be able to cast a spell, and should never have to cast defensively.


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HyperMissingno wrote:
which means my cleric is going to have to be a battle cleric.

This is false. All parties don't need to have a certain setup. You can summon for front line if you need. Or you can just go no front line. Really, going all range and sniping people from a distance works well, and then you don't have melee people who hate that you kill them before they get to do anything.

But really, I've had a party with a gunslinger, an archer build, and a channel energy cleric, and Sorcerer. they'd blow stuff up and use their range and movement to stay out of range. The cleric would summon if they needed help, but his negative energy was usually good enough. Made for a bit different of a play style than the usual CHARGE mode, but it worked really well. So don't feel you HAVE to do something, a party can do just fine with any classes/styles.


@Chess
I should probably word that a little better. I feel like I should go battle cleric due to 4/7ths of the team playing support roles and the other party members lack a good way to do damage at a distance. In other words with how the party's set up I'd feel more comfortable as a combat cleric than anything else.

@Magda
Let me make sure I understand the strategy you're suggesting. I should use a longspear to take advantage of the improved reach I get from enlarging to get a good AoO, shrink down away from the enemy and take a 5-foot step back after attacking to get another AoO? It does sound like a good idea, and I might be able to get the fighter and magus on it too.

Silver Crusade

Yes, that's exactly right. In practice it works quite well. This is a team-oriented tactic that requires a bit of teamwork.

This approach optimizes action efficiency. When things go well (often they do not!!!) you can channel and cast a spell and get multiple weapon attacks all in one round. One fallback strategy, when things don't work, is to summon stuff. Eagles are surprisingly versatile at solving problems.

There are a bunch of tricks the team can pull off using this tactic. E.g. A heavily armored short ally can stand in front of you, adjacent, and you can take AoOs over their head at 15' and 20'. An adjacent short ally does not give soft cover at 15' and 20', per core rules about soft cover. In this context 'short' means 'less than half your height'.


Yes, position yourself so if they move they take an AOO, or if they don't move / just take a 5' step, hopefully they've just wasted their actions. If you enlarge when they have already reached you, you'll do more damage but it's not when the ability really shines. Of course if you have allies who charge and ignore positioning because they are... tactically challenged... then it becomes very hard to use the ability to it's fullest. It's actually a big problem if you try and play a reach character in PFS when you have varying groups each time. I speak from expirience. *sigh*

Also as Magda mentioned +10 to hit is doable at level 5 if you have inspire courage running. Also you or one of your bards should pick up the battle cry feat when you hit level 5.

+6 from bab/str/ and +1 weapon, +2 bull strength, +2 inspire courage, +1 battlecry, -1 power attack makes +10 if you have all the buffs running.


I see, thanks for the help. I'll try it out as soon as I can get a longspear. Sadly we're not close to a town so unless one drops from a medium sized baddie I'm gonna have to stick with my trident/longsword/mace for a bit. I can probably do a variant with getting big, luring someone over, and smacking them with the extra reach I have in the meantime, just need to get lucky with the initiative.

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