if you just gave it double level BAB?
Or is it still not good enough.
The fighter is already better than almost anyone at hitting things with a sword. The problem with the fighter is that fights do not consist of sitting there and hitting each other with a sword.
Wouldn't help. If you want to make fighters the best at fighting they would need something like 3 good saves and strength bonus to all saves. The problem isn't lack of offense, its lack of defense and utility. Utility doesn't factor into combat as much as being able to shrug off save or lose effects does. It would probably take some kind of pounce ability as well.
Design Manager
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As someone once explained, the game can be chopped up into several categories, like lets say:
Social
Exploration
DPR
Control
Recovery
Non-AC Defenses
These are S, E, D, C, R, and N. Assuming that 0 is the minimum proficiency necessary to perform a function adequately, the most you can have in any given field and still have a balanced game is +3, so a Ranger might look like this:
S +0, E +2, DPR +2, Control +0 to +1, Recovery +0 to +1, N +1
Total net score: 6 to 7
So a pretty good spread divided evenly between the various game functions, with an emphasis on Exploration and DPR. Recovery and Control will vary based on spells prepared.
The Fighter looks more like this:
S -1, E- -1, DPR +3, Control -3 to +0, Recovery -3, N -3 to -1
Total net score: -7 to -9
Note that the Fighter can shift his Non-AC defenses up to a -1 (maybe even a 0) by spending feats, but doing so likely means he loses his spot as top DPR and drops to a +2. So, sure, the Fighter has a +3 in DPR, which is better than the Ranger, but he pays for it by being terrible in everything else. And the Ranger still has a +2, meaning he is two substantial steps above the minimum amount necessary to meaningfully contribute. For many enemies, there will be no functional difference between a +2 and a +3 because if trhey have 12 hit points, it doesn't matter if the Ranger is dealing 15 and the Fighter is dealing 18, the creature was defeated by both characters in the same amount of time and with the same expenditure of time and resource.
**EDIT**
I probably should have included "Armor Class" as one of the relevant factors, in which case the Fighter has A +2 and the Ranger has A +1, shifting out totals to 7 to 8 for the Ranger and -6 to -8 for the Fighter.
if you just gave it double level BAB?
Or is it still not good enough.
Yes. This would work.
Because now you can go 4 cleric / 1 ftr and still have full BAB.
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Honestly I think every class is fine and I know people that love rogue and fighter and monk. They don't play to beat the game and optimize, they play to experience the story. It's the journey, not the destination. Easy wins just feel like suck.
This topic is not about enjoying the game. This topic is about being 'the best fighter'. No matter what the OP meant by that, 2 BAB per level will not let the Fighter take the crown.
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Damage or hitting things for the fighter is never the problem. Like most people said, it's just a big lack of not doing anything else and ends up suffering for it, as soon as your dm decides to use a little bit of tactic or use the monsters, the way they are supposed to be used. A lot of the monsters are vicious, set up traps and have no qualms about using their most powerful abilities at the beginning of a fight. That usually where the fighter end up either surviving or dying.
Fighters are brute but as you get higher in level, you end up encountering Brute wizards monsters (Balors , virtually all the Onis, etc...) and to add insults to injury, a Balor can cut off your head with his vorpal weapon with one lucky hit or if your DM make a Balor lord who specializes in using crit weapons. That's of course assuming a melee fighter, Archer fighter don't have as much as an issue but well, most people don't talk about archer fighters.
Damage or hitting things for the fighter is never the problem. Like most people said, it's just a big lack of not doing anything else and ends up suffering for it, as soon as your dm decides to use a little bit of tactic or use the monsters, the way they are supposed to be used. A lot of the monsters are vicious, set up traps and have no qualms about using their most powerful abilities at the beginning of a fight. That usually where the fighter end up either surviving or dying.
Fighters are brute but as you get higher in level, you end up encountering Brute wizards monsters (Balors , virtually all the Onis, etc...) and to add insults to injury, a Balor can cut off your head with his vorpal weapon with one lucky hit or if your DM make a Balor lord who specializes in using crit weapons. That's of course assuming a melee fighter, Archer fighter don't have as much as an issue but well, most people don't talk about archer fighters.
I acknowledge that Archer Fighter is up there with Archer Ranger, Archer Paladin and Zen Archer. The issue is the same, those other archer choices probably give up a small bit of damage for unique abilities and varied options that matter more and more as you go later in the game.
Ok in that case yes, any increase to BAB or anything the fighter gets makes it the best fighter in that it will be better than other fighters that don't have that. But seriously, everything I think to adapt the fighter to make it on par with a high magic world just turns it into the inquisitor or magus.
Not necessarily. There were feats in 3.5 (and 3rd party feats for Pathfinder) specifically designed for characters with no magic to survive magical attacks and circumvent magical defenses. Though you'd still lack in overall capability compared to casters, as there is simply no substitute for high-level spells.
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What if the fighter can't be fixed?
What if at high levels a mundane martial equivalent to casters just doesn't fit the setting?
Like I recently tried to write system and I realized two things: 1) Such an endeaver is lots of work. 2) The high level martials I envisioned made sense as not magic and could compete with casters, but they stopped resembling the PF/D&D martial. They were more like Hercules or Gilgamesh or Goku.
I realized that no matter how perfect I made the system, I couldn't satisfy everyone's setting idea or everyone's idea of level.
Some see level as a competence increase, while PF treats level more like an increase in tier. High level characters are untouchable by lower levels and do not resemble them, except for martials... Martials look like they only increased in competence, while casters went from spraying colors to building castles on the sun.
The two are playing different games at the same table. This idea is contradictory and yet there is no way to fix it without fundamentally changing a game that people like.
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Hitting stuff is not the Fighter's problem... The problem is precisely his complete lack of viable alternatives when hitting stuff is not an option.
Options are the most valuable resource a character can have! Numbers are not nearly as important.
Giving Fighters bloated numbers does nothing to help them.
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Design Manager
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Ok in that case yes, any increase to BAB or anything the fighter gets makes it the best fighter in that it will be better than other fighters that don't have that. But seriously, everything I think to adapt the fighter to make it on par with a high magic world just turns it into the inquisitor or magus.
You don't need to do that at all. Check out The Genius Guide to Bravery Feats for an example of ways the Fighter can interact in more meaningful ways without being a spellcaster himself. Options for manipulating the battlefield or dealing with magical defenses and attacks don't require you to be a spellcaster yourself.
Hitting stuff is not the Fighter's problem... The problem is precisely his complete lack of viable alternatives when hitting stuff is not an option.
Options are the most valuable resource a character can have! Numbers are not nearly as important.
Giving Fighters bloated numbers does nothing to help them.
Nearly two years later and nothing has changed. No one's opinion has shifted. Some new faces came, some old faces left. The same discussions are being had.
Rather depressing link.
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Hitting stuff is not the Fighter's problem... The problem is precisely his complete lack of viable alternatives when hitting stuff is not an option.
Options are the most valuable resource a character can have! Numbers are not nearly as important.
Giving Fighters bloated numbers does nothing to help them.
Nearly two years later and nothing has changed. No one's opinion has shifted. Some new faces came, some old faces left. The same discussions are being had.
Rather depressing link.
Kingdoms rise and fall, mountains turn to dust, but a forum-goer's opinion is eternity.
If the fighter could take that extra BAB and turn it into better saves, better movement, better skill usage and more versatility, yeah, it'd be fine.
Since it's just "I hit things", which the fighter doesn't have a real problem with, I'll have to also vote no.
==Aelryinth
What if the fighter can't be fixed?
What if at high levels a mundane martial equivalent to casters just doesn't fit the setting?Like I recently tried to write system and I realized two things: 1) Such an endeaver is lots of work. 2) The high level martials I envisioned made sense as not magic and could compete with casters, but they stopped resembling the PF/D&D martial. They were more like Hercules or Gilgamesh or Goku.
I realized that no matter how perfect I made the system, I couldn't satisfy everyone's setting idea or everyone's idea of level.
Some see level as a competence increase, while PF treats level more like an increase in tier. High level characters are untouchable by lower levels and do not resemble them, except for martials... Martials look like they only increased in competence, while casters went from spraying colors to building castles on the sun.
The two are playing different games at the same table. This idea is contradictory and yet there is no way to fix it without fundamentally changing a game that people like.
QTF. :)
And to the OP: Part of the problem is that the community can not agree on how extraordinary a fighter can be without breaking immersion. If you allow him to do truely fantastic things it will be looked as anime, hidden magic, not realistic, and so on.
It absolutely would make the fighter the 'best' fighter in terms of DPR. Of course, he'd need a support team to make sure he could actually launch full attacks, but if the support casters were there, he'd be outdamaging the barbarian effortlessly. At level 15, the Barbarian is attacking with a base of +15/+10/+5. The double-BAB fighter would be attacking with a base of +30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5.
It wouldn't make the fighter a balanced class, but it would make them ridiculously deadly archers and (conditions permitting) melee-full-attackers. He'd be wiping out whole encounters in one round.
I do not recommend giving fighters double BAB.
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also when people end combat in a few rounds (which means people are dropping pretty quickly) what exactly is bleed supposed to do?
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Design Manager
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also when people end combat in a few rounds (which means people are dropping pretty quickly) what exactly is bleed supposed to do?
Yeah, bleed typically turns a near thing into a finished thing, it doesn't drastically change the dynamic of a combat. And it's more dangerous for party members who might have to spend healing resources they would have otherwise conserved than it it for enemies who tend to blow their wads anyways since they've only got one encounter to worry about.
also when people end combat in a few rounds (which means people are dropping pretty quickly) what exactly is bleed supposed to do?Yeah, bleed typically turns a near thing into a finished thing, it doesn't drastically change the dynamic of a combat. And it's more dangerous for party members who might have to spend healing resources they would have otherwise conserved than it it for enemies who tend to blow their wads anyways since they've only got one encounter to worry about.
yes resources that wear down an enemy are generally better used on players, but the bleed damage is just as likely as any other kind of damage to finish things. the point being, why is it so hard to do.
if something is on average going to die in 2 rounds, the bleed isn't really going to do much but it's balanced as if you're going to try to kill him entirely with bleed.
the crit bleed thing not withstanding, bleeds are usually just 1-3 points or so. which is chump change.
BASICALLY, it'd be cool if bleeding didn't have the same problem as dirty trick, in that you have to focus on it for it to be a really useful option. it'd be cool if bleed damage was some sort of special bleeding that cure light wounds could negate the damage of, but the character was still losing blood and could be tracked, or took -2 to fort saves or something.
Fighter would be fun if (1) he could spend immediate actions when other people couldn't, and (2) have more of them, and (3) apply status conditions on hits.
Current: Gnoll archers shoot at squishy caster while a gnoll axeman charges. Arrows hit or miss caster based on his/her defenses only; fighter is irrelevant. Fighter just stands there, maybe gets whupped by the charge, then stands there some more and full attacks if he's still alive.
Imagine: Gnoll archers shoot at squishy caster while a gnoll axeman charges. Fighter spends immediate action, interposes himself in front of caster as cover; arrows miss. Fighter spends another immediate action, steps up and whacks charging gnoll, dazing it for 1 round. Now it's the party's turn.
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Fighter would be fun if (1) he could spend immediate actions when other people couldn't, and (2) have more of them, and (3) apply status conditions on hits.
Current: Gnoll archers shoot at squishy caster while a gnoll axeman charges. Arrows hit or miss caster based on his/her defenses only; fighter is irrelevant. Fighter just stands there, maybe gets whupped by the charge, then stands there some more and full attacks if he's still alive.
Imagine: Gnoll archers shoot at squishy caster while a gnoll axeman charges. Fighter spends immediate action, interposes himself in front of caster as cover; arrows miss. Fighter spends another immediate action, steps up and whacks charging gnoll, dazing it for 1 round. Now it's the party's turn.
Imagine a fighter with Bodyguard, Step Up & Strike and Pin Down
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Imagine a fighter with Bodyguard, Step Up & Strike and Pin Down
Who can give his ally a lousy +2 to AC, rather than actually intercepting attacks, and otherwise in the scenario outlined has no particular usefulness (Step Up and Pin Down require the enemy to make a 5-ft. step away from you and/or use the withdrawal action). Also, your guy has spent SIX feats on that crap, which doesn't even let him do his job adequately, and has to be 11th level before he can even try.
If we want to foster cooperative play -- and set things up so that a fighter's natural role is to protect his teammates -- the way to do that is to give him the tools he needs to really do a good job of that up-front, not hide inadequate tools behind long feat chains with absurd level requirements.
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Well there are tools for cooperative play...teamwork feats when planned right can offer a lot of tactical options but well...go try to convince tier 1 and 2 classes to do it, when they can just end a fight with the stuffs that they already get as class features. Which again is the biggest issue...why bother with putting in so much effort when everything can be solved much more easily (one or a couple of spells for example) ?
Like Lemmy and Marcus mentioned, maybe that's just the glass ceiling the fighter have reached in this iteration of 3rd edition. At least the martial master fighter archetype will let some players actually use the obscure combat feats that never sees the light of a day on a table, because they are suboptimal and situational at best.
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Like Lemmy and Marcus mentioned, maybe that's just the glass ceiling the fighter have reached in this iteration of 3rd edition. At least the martial master fighter archetype will let some players actually use the obscure combat feats that never sees the light of a day on a table, because they are suboptimal and situational at best.
Love that combo: Build Path
lvl 12lvl 20
Mythic
Oddly the mythic version could kill Cthulhu, but could still die to ten-thousands of arrows from lvl 1 warriors. Meanwhile a level 8 sorcerer with shadow projection could eat that army alive, but do nothing to Cthulhu.
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Pounce.
Scaling Dodge Bonus.
Resolve like class feature rather than Bravery.
Whirlwind that isn't gimped.
Rally (Class feature that boosts allies sort of like Inspire)
Renown (Class feature that gives a boost to Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff)
Mage Killer (Feat that lets you make a Sense Motive Check against a caster to disrupt spell casting with AoO).
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Design Manager
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Pounce.
Scaling Dodge Bonus.
Resolve like class feature rather than Bravery.
Whirlwind that isn't gimped.
Rally (Class feature that boosts allies sort of like Inspire)
Renown (Class feature that gives a boost to Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff)
Mage Killer (Feat that lets you make a Sense Motive Check against a caster to disrupt spell casting with AoO).
Interestingly, Rogue Genius Games recently put out a supplement featuring options for many of those suggestions. Maybe if a lot of people buy it Owen will pass this information on to his new co-workers at Paizo and we'll see some more of that action making its way into the game. /shameless promotion
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@OP -
It'd make it disgustingly good for dipping. And I will say - getting pummeling charge at level 6 with three swings on the charge would make them kind of gross in combat. And I suppose that they wouldn't stop at 3 secondary attacks when full-attacking.
But as others have noted - it'd do little to shore up their out of martial combat weaknesses.
IF you're going to do double BAB, you're going to have to have the second set of BAB used for something other then hitting stuff.
I.e. paying for Expertise, Power Attack, Stalwart, or some increased move or save option.
Just doubling ability to hit? Ugh.
==Aelryinth