I got the class decks but have very little interest in doing OP. I got them to be able to use some of the unique boons in my groups current adventure path. My group is gearing up to start Skulls and Shackles this Saturday. We just want to add in the boons that aren't repeated in the base set and offer something that we think sounds helpful/fun**. Are their any rules around using the boons in this manner? Would using the cards in this manner change the balance of the game i.e. make it too easy? I am wondering what the consensus is about adding in boons from the class decks into regular adventure paths?
**We plan to add the appropriate boons based on our Adventure Path level, for example, we wouldn't be adding level 6 spells when we are just starting the base adventures.
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So are you wanting to add class deck boons directly into the base set? And which class decks?
There aren't any rules about it since class decks are meant to be played parallel to the base sets (more or less). The class deck cards weren't designed to be added to the base set.
That being said, if you are adding the cards in, will the available cards actually water down the cards you'll be exposed to? Are you playing the S&S characters or the class deck characters? If you're using the S&S characters then you're actually hampering them with class deck boons. (Lirianne doesn't care about cleric class cards. Jirelle doesn't want to see more cards without Swashbuckling.)
If you're playing the class deck characters then you might want to try using them as class decks.
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The class deck cards weren't designed to be added to the base set.
From the product description page:
The Bard Deck features diverse new allies, weapons, spells, and other loot to take your character all the way through any Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Base Set or Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild organized play campaign.
It has come up several times, the class decks are absolutely designed to also be used in Adventure mode.
As for rules on adding them, I haven't seen any official suggestions, but for my home game I would probably elect to remove boons that do not apply to our gaming group on a one-for-one basis when introducing new cards from class decks to maintain the acquisition rate of desired items.
I really think it depends on how many boons you will add. If you are talking just 2 or 3 boons of a particular card type per adventure, then I don't think it will dilute anything. If you were to add all the Fighter deck weapons each adventure, then yeah you would probably dilute the weapons for the Gunslinger or those wanting the finesse trait.
I'd be very interested in opinions on this as well... the wording makes it seem like it's an "all or nothing" approach (well, within the bounds of adding the proper level cards at the proper time). We're looking at starting up S&S shortly (we're still wrapping up RotR), and there are many interesting cards from the class decks we'd like to add in.
But, I'm not sure picking and choosing is really fair, either...
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At the end of the day, it is your game and it is your house, play it how it seems fun and fair to you, that is the joy of game homebrew.
If you are a stickler and want to play by the only rules I am aware of, one side of the card on using the deck (included in the class deck package) says you may add them all and when to add them... read that as you will.
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The class deck cards weren't designed to be added to the base set.
From the product description page:
The Bard Deck features diverse new allies, weapons, spells, and other loot to take your character all the way through any Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Base Set or Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild organized play campaign.It has come up several times, the class decks are absolutely designed to also be used in Adventure mode.
I said "added". Yes, the class decks are designed to be played with the set. But you don't physically add them to the base set.
I said "added". Yes, the class decks are designed to be played with the set. But you don't physically add them to the base set.
I don't have the rule book with me, but I'm about 90% certain that the section "Building the Box" has, about 2/3 of the way through, a paragraph that says something to the effect of "If you have the class decks, you may add the appropriate cards from them into the box". It's right before or after the sentence that says the same thing about the Character Add-On Deck.
As for house-ruling which cards go into the box, we may end up doing that, but I'd prefer to know if there was any particular intention on the part of the designers. With a game like this, a couple of poorly chosen house rules can take all of the fun out of it...
If you own any Class Decks, you may also add any cards from them that have a B in the upper-right corner.
If you’re playing an Adventure Path and you successfully complete an adventure, you’re ready to move on to the next one. Add all of the cards from the next Adventure Deck to the box; if you own any Class Decks, you can add any cards from them that have the same adventure deck number as the Adventure Deck cards you just added.
So exactly which ones is totally up to you.
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For your first play session, you'll need only the base cards, so leave The Wormwood Mutiny sealed for now. If you own the Character Add-On Deck, go ahead and combine that set with the cards in the base set as described in Organizing Your Cards (see below). If you own any Class Decks, you may also add any cards from them that have a B in the upper-right corner.
Glad you mentioned that, I missed that in my readings.
Looks like no real rules on how to add class deck cards to the base set except that you add the same card level as you are playing. (B cards with the B, C and P base cards; 1 cards when adding Adv deck 1 cards.)
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But again, you'll want to balance out the cards so that you don't "water" down the base set boons. Also, unless you're playing with the class deck characters, I'm not sure the advantage of adding class deck cards to the base set.
Just because the character isn't build with those cards in mind doesn't negate their benefit. Oloch is going to benefit from the Fighter Deck weapons, and Alahazra is going to like the Cleric spells, for starters.
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If you would like the "rules" for adding these cards to the base set, there is a an app for that..... j/k
There is a card in the decks that explains how labeled "Adding Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Class Decks To Any Set". Basically you add them in the same manner you were already describing you would. Class deck 1 cards added when you start adventure deck 1, class deck 2 cards when you start adventure deck 2, etc.
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I have said, completely unofficially, that the choice to include or not include should be made for each box, not for each card. That seems sporting, anyway.
Wow. Thanks everyone for the feedback.
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The problem comes when the play-value in the box being added, at least when it comes to being a fun wholesale addition to the overall adventure path, is minimal. Adding dozens of longswords, force missile, thieves' tools, and other mundane / repeat boons to S&S, in my view, doesn't make the game more interesting or fun.
The class decks are very useful for organized play and the "your character lives out of this box" form of PACG, but I see very little in those class decks that can spice up a plain-vanilla S&S campaign. In addition, there's the real danger of so many flavorless boons watering down the S&S cardset, as Theryon mentioned - harming Lirianne for sure, and maybe others.
Would anyone argue that it's a good idea, or that it would be a good experience, to take the entirety of the cards from six class decks (assuming a group plays six class-deck characters) and add them during the appropriate adventure deck stage to S&S for a play-through?
If I were to do it, I'd probably just sub them on a 1-1 basis (based on Basic/Elite/no modifier ratios and adventure deck number). But you can do whatever you want.
I could think of an alternative where some of the more unique items can actually be substituted by using a roll table. Like instead of a Venomous Pike +2 you get a Shock Greatsword +2 depending on the roll. Would need tweaking.
There's definitely tension here between what adds the most fun (the unique boons/favorite boons that aren't in the AP you're playing), and maintaining a comparable level of difficulty (leaving out basic, low-deck# or unexciting boons pumps up the average quality of the card pool; additionally, having an additional stat gem/masterwork tools/etc. in the pool, period, means improving the best-possible-deck).
Since each card type is segregated from the others (such that the quality of weapons/allies/spells is entirely unaffected by whether you add some new items), I'd argue that if it's fair (=difficulty-neutral) to add a whole class deck of cards, then it's probably also fair to add one or more entire categories from that class deck. You want poisons? Great, but the cost is diluting the overall pool so you'll have a slightly harder time getting those potions of flying/heroism/etc for Damiel. I don't really see why one should have to dilute the other types, just because one wants to get cards of one particular type into the mix. (Hypothetically, it seems fine to add only the weapons from a potential gunslinger deck, say.)
Of course, I'll probably play through S&S once before throwing extra boons in, as there are plenty of cards/combos from the class deck cards that make things easier overall (Mountaineers in S&S? Poison on Damiel letting him spam Craft checks to draw more items? Augury/Swipe?).
Has anyone (besides me) tried using the OP deck upgrade rules for standard AP play? I find it to be much more interesting than the standard rules. The slower building decks off set by more customized cards makes the whole process more RPG like. At least, that's how I see it.
I am designing an adventure that blends S&S and ROTR and have been experimenting with mixing the sets, and have the class decks as well.
This is a kind of messy situation, not sure if there's an elegant solution to mixing lots of different decks together.
The suggestion that you trade one card for another works for improving odds but that adds a lot of admin time to setup, which can kill the fun for new players.
How I did it was sloppy, but fun:
Just have multiple decks of weapons and other boons around the table\in the boxes. Each player can pick which one they want to go for. It's a roll of the dice. It sucks, it can be not fair, but that's what you get for putting in lots of boons. On the plus side, it encourages player trading and cooperation.
Also, remove some of the dross like the extra BotG's and class deck basics. The only reason you're adding more stuff is to have more fun anyway.
One big advantage of the class deck in a non-OP adventure is for setting up new players. They have all of their basics ready to go. You don't have to spend an hour setting up the basics for 5 different new players by sifting through the boxes. That's why I'm taking them to a 6-player game this thursday.
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There's definitely tension here between what adds the most fun (the unique boons/favorite boons that aren't in the AP you're playing), and maintaining a comparable level of difficulty...Mountaineers in S&S? Poison on Damiel letting him spam Craft checks to draw more items? Augury/Swipe?
I'm not sure that selecting only unique boons (by "unique" I mean "new" - not Runelords rehashes) from the class decks would reduce difficulty in S&S. Augury / Swipe and other "super-spells" from Runelords in the class decks could raise again the spectre of Runelords' complaints: "Zees game, eet eez too eazee!" The scouting spells in particular are much more powerful as the level of difficulty increases, as you're better able to line up your explorations to tackle tougher challenges.
I saw what you did there ;)
Has anyone (besides me) tried using the OP deck upgrade rules for standard AP play? I find it to be much more interesting than the standard rules. The slower building decks off set by more customized cards makes the whole process more RPG like. At least, that's how I see it.
I have now. Thanks for the suggestion.
My current thought is to add all the appropriate cards from the class decks in when the box is built - then, allow "exiling" class deck cards that would be banished and that we don't want to keep (i.e. like what you do with basics and elites at the appropriate points).
That way, we aren't simply picking the best things to go into the box, and the ratios aren't affected *too* badly. There's still some extra chaff, but it'll gradually thin out as we play.
My current thought is to add all the appropriate cards from the class decks in when the box is built - then, allow "exiling" class deck cards that would be banished and that we don't want to keep (i.e. like what you do with basics and elites at the appropriate points).
That way, we aren't simply picking the best things to go into the box, and the ratios aren't affected *too* badly. There's still some extra chaff, but it'll gradually thin out as we play.
I really like your idea. I think my gaming group is going to do exactly this. Thank you.
What do you think Mike Selinker? It follows your unofficial rule and over time via play through allows any unwanted boons to be banished.
Well, there are competing forces involved, so I don't think it's possible to get a perfectly synchronized system...
Suppose there are 4 weapons that you really want, and adding in the class decks doubled the number of weapons without adding any more that you really wanted (but, you wanted the class decks for some other type of card or other character). Then, you've just halved the rate at which you'll get the things you're looking for.
On the flip side, suppose there are 4 spells that you really want, and you cherry-pick 4 spells from class decks that you really want, and only add those in. Then you've doubled the rate at which you'll get the "good cards."
I like the exiling option since it is roughly a middle ground between these two. It's definitely not as "good" as just picking the cards. But, different people like playing different ways, and I honestly can't predict how well it'll actually work for us until we give it a try.
Chief Technical Officer
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The rules for adding Class Decks to your box are on one side of the rules card that comes with every Class Deck:
...You may immediately add all of the Class Deck cards that have the letter B in the upper-right corner to the other cards in your base set (see “Organizing Your Cards” in the rulebook). When you add cards from a new Adventure Deck to the box (see “Ending a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path” in the rulebook), you may add all of the Class Deck cards that have the same adventure deck number as the Adventure Deck cards you just added.
Note use of the word "all" and not the word "any." (If you're doing something else, you are making your own house rules.)
If you're doing something else, you are making your own house rules.
I'm fine with accepting that the way our group is exiling cards means we're in houserule territory - after all, we're just affecting ourselves. But I would like to know how far outside of the design path we've strayed, in the event we want to go through with again with a strictly by-the-rules game.
As other have commented, the game has been balanced incredibly well, and I've enjoyed playing almost every character I've tried (there's one that simply didn't fit my personal playstyle, which is a reflection of me and not the game). I greatly appreciate all of the hard work that must have gone into playtesting - thank you!
My *assumption* has been that it would have been impractical to try to playtest the game with many various class decks added in (we've added in 5 ourselves; all of the ones we felt matched the characters we're playing). We want to play S&S, but we also want to play with the class decks we got, and we are simply very limited on time - so, perhaps we're combining more than we should.
I'm really rambling now, and I should just cut to the chase: I'm really curious as to how the S&S Adventure Path and the Class Decks were approached. Was the combination a core design effort, or are the Class Decks focused primarily on Organized Play, but with an eye towards compatibility with the base game? (Noting that the Class Decks only get a couple of sentences in the main rulebook.)
(My apologies if this comes across poorly; I'm simply unfamiliar with how design and testing operates on a game of this scope.)
Thanks!
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Chief Technical Officer
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Class Decks have always been thought of as much as an accessory to the main set as the key to making Org Play work.
That said, I would eventually like to have several dozen Class Decks, and I would not recommend anyone dump all of them into the same Base Set. I'd suggest limiting the number of Class Decks you add to match the number of players you have, but that's just me.
As a Return of Experience, I can tell you we played it.
A) We put all 7 class decks in game (I mean, adding ALL relevant cards from the class decks when a specific adventure number is reached), without of course any selection.
B) Since it's way too many cards for a good play - especially 0 level ones (you need to keep the ratios of cards of different levels) - we have then prepared a number of "PREGEN" character decks, thus "consuming" 15 0-level cards for each of them up to the point where we where back to the good ratios.
Not only that allows for variety in the game but it allows new players to join easily (for example when one of the starting group is not present) by picking a PREGEN character deck without unbalancing the "box".
Pretty much it means we somehow swapped some cards from the Character decks and the box, but making sure we kept all the fun and balance.
Return of Experience is that the various (small) side effects (less firearm on average but more variety) somehow counterbalance each other and the game wins a little more fun (from variety) without losing any interest (neither easier or harder).
This said the official game is just plain fun so you absolutely do not need to make changes like this one. It's just that our team is a lot into roleplaying and rather than having three times the same powerful card we just love discovering during exploration and trying to acquire a bunch of stuff that may not be optimum for our characters but will be fun to try to survive with.
Thanks; I'm very interested to see how the S&S + Class Decks game plays out as we proceed through the adventure path.
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Thanks; I'm very interested to see how the S&S + Class Decks game plays out as we proceed through the adventure path.
We started this endeavor this week. We're playing only class deck characters, but not mixing anything in, instead we're using OP rules. (The class decks are owned by the players, the box/add-on deck is owned by me.)
1st scenario went fairly well, the second one got away from us quickly!! No one managed to get any allies except for the bard. And the villain was defeated once, then ran to 1-2 locations where she proceeded to hide at the very bottom of the location deck. We only found this out AFTER we ran out of cards in the blessings deck. And after all this, we only managed to get 2 allies the whole time.
I leave it up to choice, mainly for admin reasons.
If a person wants to draw from the B's in their class's deck, they can choose to, if they want to pick from the RotR base set, they can do that as well.
I have a game where 2 people have chosen to play S&S characters for the RotR adventure path, despite my cautioning against it. I am allowing them to draw their cards from the S&S box.
So far the game is playing just fine, everybody is having fun.